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College: Diversity

yes and a higher international student base would accomplish this more effectively than simply having more black kids from the nearest city, would it not?

there are various paths and forms of diversity - racial, ethnic, geographic, gender, sexuality, religion, political, socioeconomic. I feel that the strict focus on race is a lazy way out for admissions staff, and the pitiful # who "come from all 50 states and all 82 counties and 64 countries" is just a brochure advertisement

I would think having both would be good. Universities do focus on more than just race. At least the ones I applied to back when I was young required an essay in which I talk about myself. Maybe they don't do that anymore? I don't know.
 
I would think having both would be good. Universities do focus on more than just race. At least the ones I applied to back when I was young required an essay in which I talk about myself. Maybe they don't do that anymore? I don't know.

the common app is now used by even elite schools because making it easier to apply means more applications, means a higher rejection rate, means higher magazine rankings...so no the essays don't mean much since it's the same essay for most schools and besides, they know some PhD will write them for the rich kids anyway. The listed ECs can be revealing, except people exaggerate and lie like crazy. If the schools truly cared, they wouldn't prioritize expedience.

some of the ivys and military academies require interviews for those who are borderline admits

but yeah in the umich supreme court case the entire argument revolved around racial quotas for black/hispanic, while the school had a meager 2% international. Perspective has been totally lost in this
 
I think if society targeted making a quality K-12 and higher education more accessible to the economically disadvantaged population as a whole, then the diversity issue will pretty much sort itself out.

I believe economic disadvantages are what is holding minorities back, particularly blacks, more than racial discrimination. That's not to say discrimination isn't real and doesn't have a very strong, negative impact...it is very real...-but that can be overcome if they weren't dealing with poverty on top of everything else. Some of these kids just have so much going against them, they never have a chance without divine (or whatever you want to call it) intervention. And I am not talking about government-nothing divine about that-government I think makes it worse.
 
I don't even know what your last statement means. But I do know that one way to not end up at the bottom of the barrel is to do well in school, beginning in elementary school. Parents and guardians have to stress the value of education and model this, and so does the community.

But when you're talking about higher education, accepting and then retaining or then "accommodating" any student who's not ready or able to do the work only lowers the quality of instruction for everyone. And this is irrespective of race.


Well, that can/is done, however when your district doesn't have a lot of money, the schools aren't in good shape, necessary materials aren't there, etc., it makes getting through school much more difficult. This is especially so when our education system overall, no matter where one is, generally does one thing: teach to the test.
 
Well, that can/is done, however when your district doesn't have a lot of money, the schools aren't in good shape, necessary materials aren't there, etc., it makes getting through school much more difficult. This is especially so when our education system overall, no matter where one is, generally does one thing: teach to the test.
why would we test our students on material that had not been presented?
 
I never said that at all.
here
... This is especially so when our education system overall, no matter where one is, generally does one thing: teach to the test.
you presented that as an inappropriate thing to do, teaching to the test. and i questioned why we would test the students instead on something that was not presented
 
hereyou presented that as an inappropriate thing to do, teaching to the test. and i questioned why we would test the students instead on something that was not presented

I didn't say that we should test people on what wasn't presented. That term is used to say that teachers are teaching for standardized tests only.
 
I didn't say that we should test people on what wasn't presented. That term is used to say that teachers are teaching for standardized tests only.
to evaluate how much of what we present for the student to learn was retained. and why is that found to be a bad thing?
 
to evaluate how much of what we present for the student to learn was retained. and why is that found to be a bad thing?

Are you purposefully being obtuse?
 
Are you purposefully being obtuse?
in asking why teaching to the test is found to be inappropriate? you have yet to share with us why teaching to the test should be found a wrongful educational approach
 
in asking why teaching to the test is found to be inappropriate? you have yet to share with us why teaching to the test should be found a wrongful educational approach

Because it reinforces this idea of rote memorization and just knowing answers rather than knowing how to get to the answer. Rather than teaching people to actually think, it just teaches them solely memorization. This article goes further. (11 problems created by the standardized testing obsession - The Washington Post)
 
page 1 of 2 pages
Because it reinforces this idea of rote memorization and just knowing answers rather than knowing how to get to the answer. Rather than teaching people to actually think, it just teaches them solely memorization. This article goes further. (11 problems created by the standardized testing obsession - The Washington Post)
let's examine the full array of your objections to testing the student on what has been presented by the instructor
1. The obsession with high-stakes standardized tests is stifling creativity and imagination in the classroom.–- The overemphasis on testing has led many teachers to eliminate projects and activities that provide students with an opportunity to be creative and imaginative, and scripted curriculum has become the norm in many classrooms. There is nothing creative or imaginative about filling in a bubble sheet for a multiple choice test. Students are so tired of prepping for and taking standardized test that some have protested by dressing up like zombies to protest — and thousands of families are opting their children out of taking high-stakes exams.
if your objection is that nothing is done except lecture and then testing against the material, then that is a problem. but the problem is NOT the testing of the material presented. the actual problem is the teacher failing to do more. and it cannot be due to lack of time, because the test material is already provided, and the grading is frequently automated. the problem described here is weak, monotonous teaching practices
2. The obsession with test scores as the chief “accountability” metric for students, educators and schools has led to the exams becoming an end instead of a means to an end.— In some states even the most severely disabled students are being forced to take standardized tests. In Florida, for example, one boy who was born without the cognitive portion of his brain has been required to take an alternative version of the state’s standardized exams.
but this is not the problem of testing the students on the material presented. it is speaking to the misuse of the test data gathered
3. Standardized tests are being used in high-stakes ways to evaluate and punish teachers.— The Obama administration’s “Race to the Top” initiative coerces states to use student standardized test scores to evaluate teachers even though the exams were never intended for this purpose and the results are not reliable indicators a teacher’s effectiveness. This “test and punish” approach to teacher evaluation has caused some schools and districts to ignore other factors affecting student achievement such as poverty and socioeconomic status.
again, this is not the problem of testing the students on the material presented. it is speaking to the misuse of the test data gathered
4. The obsession with standardized testing by reformers is driving good teachers to leave their profession.–Many teachers have become disillusioned with the time spent preparing students for, and administering, tests. Morale in the teaching profession is at a 20-year low.
once more, this is not the problem of testing the students on the material presented. it is speaking to the misuse of the test data gathered
5. The obsession with standardized tests is promoting a culture of cheating in many schools.–Recent cheating scandals involving teachers and administrators in Atlanta and dozens of other cities have been directly linked to the pressure to raise test scores.
and this has nothing to do with the legitimacy and reasonableness of testing students on the material in which they had been instructed to identify what was and was not learned. this has everything to do with the lack of integrity of the teachers who cheated
6. The obsession with standardized tests is driving teachers — fearful that their jobs will be stake if student test scores don’t rise — to teach to the test.–Most educators agree that teaching to the test is wrong, yet this has become standard operating procedure in most classrooms.
here again is the presentation that teaching to the test is wrong, but nowhere have you shown a reasonable basis to assert that testing students on the material presented by the instructors is other than a reasonable teaching method
 
page 2 of 2 pages
7. When standardized tests are the most important thing, the fostering of critical thinking in the classroom gets short shrift.— Rote memorization has become commonplace in many classes.
rote memorization is a useful learning technique. one that allows a student to master the presented material. why do you find that ability to accomplish rote memorization undermines a student's ability to also engage in critical thinking?
8. The obsession with raising student standardized test scores is leading to a one-size-fits-all curriculum that ignores the needs of individual students.–Every student is a unique individual with their own talents and abilities. The standardized testing regime fails to recognize the importance of individual achievement in education and instead uses a “cookie cutter” approach to learning that ignores students’ individual interests and abilities.
the testing allows the teacher to identify what has and has not been learned by each student. that allows the teacher to tailor their efforts to meet the needs of each student. the opposite of what is alleged
9. Standardized tests are not helping to prepare students for college or careers.— After more than a dozen years of the No Child Left Behind and Race to the Top eras in which high-stakes tests have dominated, students are no more ready to do well in college than they were before — and many are less so. Corporate CEOs complain that students aren’t learning the kinds of skills needed to succeed in the modern workplace.
what factual information do you have to show that teaching to the test is responsible for these stagnant academic outcomes?
10. The high-stakes standardized tests used in U.S. public schools do not accurately measure what students have learned. — The kinds of standardized tests that have been used in U.S. public schools cannot assess critical thinking well, if at all. It is also true that many students do poorly on standardized tests even though they may have achieved mastery over the material. The stress of “test anxiety” can be debilitating for many students.
test anxiety has always been present and likely always will. that is not a good reason to quit testing students to examine how much of the presented material was learned, and what was not and by whom. tell us why critical thinking skills cannot be accurately tested. please share this insight
11. Standardized tests mostly benefit companies making millions from them.— Companies such as Pearson Education and others have profited enormously from the testing obsession.
standardized tests are a fragment of all testing. some of it can be useful, as those who take the ACT and SAT can attest, when applying for college admission. why is it wrong for a business selling desired goods and services to be profitable? if they are not, those desirable items will no longer be available to the teachers/schools
 
The thing is that diversity cannot be at the expense of ability to do the work.
 
UD told to improve student diversity now





So many questions arise when thinking about this.

#1) Shouldn't college acceptance be merit based?
#2) Is lack of diversity due to high cost of college?
#3) Does college ask about race on application?
#4) Is there some suggestion that the school is trying to keep non-whites out?
#5) How many non-white applications are there per year?
#6) What percentage of non-white applications are accepted per year?
#7) How does one prevent reverse-discrimination against white students who meet academic requirements?
#8) Is there a "magic percentage number" of non-whites that would make people happy?
#9) Is a school with a predominately white population of students doing something wrong?

1) Ideally, yes, as with most other things in the world. However, unfortunately it isn't nor will it ever be (perfectly), but still there's so much that needs to be improved

2) No, rather due to social differences among race and wealth classes

3) Yes, ALWAYS (the top ones at least). You can choose not to answer but given how you almost always have to have an interview (face-to-face, guaranteeing that your race will be known even if you choose not to answer in your application), and that in the case of Asians, your surname is enough to give it away unless you change your name, you're pretty much forced to expose your race.

4) To be honest I haven't read this specific article, but all the (statistical and empirical) evidence suggests that schools are generally doing everything they can to include them in. Here's an article that summarizes the findings of a well-known study on the effects of affirmative action in colleges: http://priceonomics.com/post/48794283011/do-elite-colleges-discriminate-against-asians

5) Many

6) Proportionally more than whites or Asians

7) Make admissions race-blind. Remove names and race from applications, make faces invisible in interviews (think how singers/musicians perform behind closed curtains in auditions as to prevent any prejudices based on their appearances). However, the problem with college admission is that there are other factors that prevent it from becoming meritocratic. Children of donors, legacies, recruited athletes, "well-connected" (ie connections with admission office employee, member of board of directors, political leaders, etc...) all of them also gain an immeasurable advantage over other students. Erase legacies, donations from people connected to applicants, and anything that prevents a meritocratic process. Athletes should not be recruited and given preference (they usually fail abominably to even come close to the academic standards but are still admitted) but given the state of America's unique collegiate sports, I doubt that it will ever happen. Finally, something that is overlooked: make admissions need-blind. That means that students who need financial aid or are from financially underprivileged backgrounds should not be passed over in favor of those who can afford it and whose parents can make donations, if the poor students are academically more qualified.

8) There shouldn't be, period.

9) Not necessarily. Schools that are local-based (schools that mostly draw students from its local region such as state colleges) can have a predominant racial population depending on the racial makeup of the local population. For example, I'd imagine that a college in New York is comprised of more black students than a college in say, Idaho.



Finally, diversity is certainly a good thing, but it should never be given precedence over meritocracy. Not only are there so many things morally wrong with such discrimination, but what about race does it make it so special? Why not make quotas based on sexual orientation? Religion? Extracurricular activities? I find the notion of diversity for diversity's sake so laughably wrong, I'm not even going to attempt to argue against it.
 
What I find interesting as well is the comment about how the college has been trying for "decades" to "fix" their diversity "problem".

Decades???
Perhaps there isn't a problem here at all if decades of effort have not yielded any changes?
Correct.
Though you can improve SAT scores SOMEWHAT, You can't change IQ with any remediation... and we haven't.
Racial imbalance is Inevitable and not solvable any time soon.
Lotsa preceding PC replies but no one calling it like it is.

As we all know, and Like alot of UCals, a Race blind student body looks 40% Asian (10x their population number), and 1%-2% Black.
See discussion in this string for many answers/studies.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/asia/...king-than-everyone-else-8.html#post1061886572

ie
Why Caltech Is in a Class by Itself
By Russell K. Nieli
Dec 9, 2010
[.......]
Toward a Pure Meritocracy

Of the top two dozen or so elite universities in America only on has managed both to avoid the craziness of the post-60s intellectual fads, and to establish something pretty close to a pure meritocracy -- California Institute of Technology, which has not received the general recognition among academics that it clearly deserves.

The statistics on Caltech's students and faculty are simply spellbinding. An entering Caltech freshman last year who received a 770 on the math SAT would be exceeded in this area by 3/4 of his fellow entering freshmen.
Many Caltech freshmen got a perfect 800 on their math SAT, while a near-perfect 1560 combination score placed an incoming freshmen at only the 75th percentile of his entering classmates. A combined SAT score of 1470 (the 99th percentile by national standards) placed an entering Caltech freshman at only the 25th percentile among his fellow students. (At Harvard and Princeton, by contrast, the 25th percentile is reached by a score of only 1380).... In short, Caltech is interested in enrolling only the academically most accomplished and advanced students, who have a genuine passion for the STEM subjects (science, technology, engineering, mathematics), and virtually all of its entering students have achieved at the 98th or 99th percentile in terms of their scores on competitive national exams.

What this means is that at Caltech, there are no dumb jocks, dumb legacies, or dumb Affirmative Action students. It is clear from its published statistics that the non-academic criteria that preoccupy admissions committees at all other elite universities count for little at this beacon of pure meritocracy. Perhaps the most striking difference from all other elite universities -- including institutions like MIT and the University of Chicago which forgo athletic recruitment -- is Caltech's complete Indifference to Racial balancing.

In a state and a region of the country with the largest Hispanic population, [pu]Caltech's entering freshmen class in 2008 was less than 6% Hispanic[/u] (13 out of 236).
The unwillingness to lower standards for a larger Black representation is even more striking -- less than 1% (2/236) of Caltech's 2008 entering freshmen were listed as "non-Hispanic black".
This "Underrepresentation" of Blacks and Hispanics, of course, was more than made up for by the Huge "Overrepresentation" of Asians.
Only 4% of the U.S. population, Asians made up a whopping 40% of the incoming freshmen class in 2008, a slightly larger proportion than the 39% figure for whites.
Applicants to Caltech are clearly seen as representing Only themselves and their own Individual merit and achievement, Not their Race or their ethnic group.
As a professor at Caltech who has taught there for many years explained to me in an email, "We try, like our competitors, very, very hard to find, recruit, and nurture underrepresented minorities but We won't bend our standards."
[.......]
Of course, Caltech is the Exception (true Ivy/Elite School Picture) and virtually ALL other Top schools discriminate hugely in favor of Blacks and [ergo] Against Asians.

NYC is the same, of course.
All our Elite high schools (Bronx Science, Stuyvesant, etc) are Majority Asian despite them being a small minority, and with almost little (and fading) of the more populous Black population qualifying.
Our new Leftist Mayor wants to change the current Merit Based system.
'To make Elite schools ‘Fair,’ NY City will punish poor Asians'
http://www.debatepolitics.com/gener...-schools-fair-ny-city-punish-poor-asians.html
and this Predictable result is NOT caused by socioeconomic disadvantage, as Many of NYC's Asians are poor, not rich.

IQ is about 3/4 Heritable.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ
http://www.debatepolitics.com/asia/...king-than-everyone-else-2.html#post1061877769
 
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UD told to improve student diversity now





So many questions arise when thinking about this.

#1) Shouldn't college acceptance be merit based?
#2) Is lack of diversity due to high cost of college?
#3) Does college ask about race on application?
#4) Is there some suggestion that the school is trying to keep non-whites out?
#5) How many non-white applications are there per year?
#6) What percentage of non-white applications are accepted per year?
#7) How does one prevent reverse-discrimination against white students who meet academic requirements?
#8) Is there a "magic percentage number" of non-whites that would make people happy?
#9) Is a school with a predominately white population of students doing something wrong?

1) what is merit? I do an interesting assignment each semester in which I let students, all of which claim selection should be based on merit, select two out of 8 students for admission. They set the criteria. Oddly, in 15 years, 4 classes a semester, two semesters, the one student with a 4.0 GPA and a near perfect SAT never gets selected. So, merit needs to be defined.

2) No, cost is one of many factors.

3) Likely do.

4) No, whites still make up the majority of college students.

5) and 6) about 64% of college students are white, 13 percent black and 11 percent Hispanic. About 64% of blacks attend some college as compared to 70% whites. Minorities are more likely to go to community colleges, to need developmental classes and less likely to attended a prestigious university. These numbers are garnered from many sources and can be easily looked up.

6) Has that been shown to be a real problem. I heard Pat Buchanan once say that it really wasn't a problem, but that because so many believed it was, we had to make laws to prevent it. That seems kind of like placating a group to me. But then again, it all boils down to what is the standard?

7) Quotas are against the law. But schools and students often argue for diversity. Not the government.

8) Not wrong, but limited. There are experiences they will miss hearing about from those who lived it, in conversation. One student here argue passionately what she missed growing up in a non diverse world when she had to enter the work force outside that bubble. She faulted the school for not providing her that diversity.
 
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