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Coach Lead prayer ruled constitutional

Artymoon said:
Well, as the constitution reads, it's freedom of religion. Not freedom from religion. As longs as there is no requirement for anyone to participate, I don't see an issue with it.
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I expect that there will be equal time for other persuasions required and I look forward to the hours of prayer from all the religions in the world including satanism. Hail Satan! If that cuts into the time for the game they can just shorten it. It's just a stupid game.
 
iguanaman said:
I expect that there will be equal time for other persuasions required and I look forward to the hours of prayer from all the religions in the world including satanism. Hail Satan! If that cuts into the time for the game they can just shorten it. It's just a stupid game.
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I suppose if the coach was Hindu and he offered prayer it would be viewed no differently from a constitutional perspective.
 
Artymoon said:
I suppose if the coach was Hindu and he offered prayer it would be viewed no differently from a constitutional perspective.
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If its equally open to all religions, even silly ones like people who say they follow the jedi code, then its constitutional. If ANY differentiation is made, it is not.
 
iguanaman said:
I expect that there will be equal time for other persuasions required and I look forward to the hours of prayer from all the religions in the world including satanism. Hail Satan! If that cuts into the time for the game they can just shorten it. It's just a stupid game.
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All it takes is one prayer rug to stop this silly shit.
 
tacomancer said:
If its equally open to all religions, even silly ones like people who say they follow the jedi code, then its constitutional. If ANY differentiation is made, it is not.
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Satanists have already requested equal time on the field and other religions are sure to follow. Get your prayer rugs handy...

Katskee argued that even if the court viewed Kennedy's speech as private, the school district had adequate justification to restrict it because officials are permitted to "prevent disruption of and maintain control over school events." Katskee gave the example that a Satanist group had come forward to demand the same access to the football field.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/27/poli...-high-school-supreme-court-kennedy/index.html
 
tacomancer said:
In this case, the establishment of a connection between this coach's religion and official government activities (a government funded and sanctioned football game on government owned property by a government employee acting in his official government role as a coach).
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In reading the decision, this case was not that simple. The coach ceased school traditions (locker room prayer and religious speeches) that pre-dated his employment pursuant to the first letter from the superintendent. In terms of his private prayer, the superintendent initially tried to make him hide in the press box and then flatly prohibited all “religious conduct” at all times.

That is where the school erred. They can’t do that. There is a long list of law and cases that says they can’t and requires reasonable accommodation for religious expression. Furthermore, nobody was coerced into participating in his religious expression. Sometimes some of the players did and sometimes they didn’t. In fact, the last three times he prayed on the field he deliberately waited for the players to leave and did so completely alone. Nobody was pressured to participate and nobody was punished for not participating.

Lastly, the issue of whether or not he was engaging in religious expression in his capacity as a government employee or a private citizen. The majority decided he did so as a private citizen for two reasons. First because his religious expression was not performed as an extension of his official duties. Second, and more pointedly, because he did so after games during a time when employees were allowed to act in their capacity as private citizens, e.g. taking personal phone calls and socializing with friends and family.
 
Napoleon said:
In reading the decision, this case was not that simple. The coach ceased school traditions (locker room prayer and religious speeches) that pre-dated his employment pursuant to the first letter from the superintendent. In terms of his private prayer, the superintendent initially tried to make him hide in the press box and then flatly prohibited all “religious conduct” at all times.

That is where the school erred. They can’t do that. There is a long list of law and cases that says they can’t and requires reasonable accommodation for religious expression. Furthermore, nobody was coerced into participating in his religious expression. Sometimes some of the players did and sometimes they didn’t. In fact, the last three times he prayed on the field he deliberately waited for the players to leave and did so completely alone. Nobody was pressured to participate and nobody was punished for not participating.
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I would agree with this. There is well established legal precedent that the school can't do this (not that precedent matters much anymore, but we are where we are).
Napoleon said:
Lastly, the issue of whether or not he was engaging in religious expression in his capacity as a government employee or a private citizen. The majority decided he did so as a private citizen for two reasons. First because his religious expression was not performed as an extension of his official duties. Second, and more pointedly, because he did so after games during a time when employees were allowed to act in their capacity as private citizens, e.g. taking personal phone calls and socializing with friends and family.
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I think this is where it gets tricky and the court got it wrong, because the perception of him acting as an employee can still persist and that can firmly be fixed in people's minds. This would have better been decided if the school had put this explicitly in their policy or signage. That is how I would have decided it, just send it back to the school and have them be more mindful and explicit around the separation piece, being clear that the coach hat was off and the citizen hat was on. Otherwise that grey area becomes highly problematic.

Due to the school's and court's failure here, we are getting set up for another baphomet statue style situation.
 
Buckeyes85 said:
To the surprise of no one, the christian theocracy currently inhabiting the Supreme Court ruled that post game, coach led prayers at midfield are protected speech.

abcnews.go.com

Supreme Court sides with coach in public school prayer case

The case involved a high school football coach praying post-game at the 50-yard line.
abcnews.go.com abcnews.go.com
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Wonder what would happen if the school superintendent, or other office with authority over public schools, issued a directive that requires coaches and players to leave the playing field/stadium immediately following games?

If SCOTUS can ignore the Establishment Clause, state and local officials have every right to react, using their legitimate authority. 👍
 
tacomancer said:
I would agree with this. There is well established legal precedent that the school can't do this (not that precedent matters much anymore, but we are where we are).

I think this is where it gets tricky and the court got it wrong, because the perception of him acting as an employee can still persist and that can firmly be fixed in people's minds. This would have better been decided if the school had put this explicitly in their policy or signage. That is how I would have decided it, just send it back to the school and have them be more mindful and explicit around the separation piece, being clear that the coach hat was off and the citizen hat was on. Otherwise that grey area becomes highly problematic.

Due to the school's and court's failure here, we are getting set up for another baphomet statue style situation.
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Agree with you here. The school created this nebulous status/timeframe where the coaching staff are technically on-duty but not engaging in any official duties. The Satanic Temple trolls did start picketing the games and demanding field-time. I don’t like the chaos these scenarios unleash.
 
Napoleon said:
Agree with you here. The school created this nebulous status/timeframe where the coaching staff are technically on-duty but not engaging in any official duties. The Satanic Temple trolls did start picketing the games and demanding field-time. I don’t like the chaos these scenarios unleash.
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I personally dislike the satanic crowd, but they serve a useful first amendment function of keeping the playing field neutral and open to everyone. The last thing I want is for my faith to further take over society which would only make it more worldly and less about Jesus. What is Caesar's should remain so.
 
tacomancer said:
If its equally open to all religions, even silly ones like people who say they follow the jedi code, then its constitutional. If ANY differentiation is made, it is not.
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While that may be one basis by which the practice may be found unconstitutional, it is not the only threshold. It is an issue under the establishment clause of promoting any religion. Not just promoting all religions equally.

The ultimate issue was whether as to the students, this was truly a voluntary activity. An issue which the religious zealots on the court had no problem sweeping aside.

But as mentioned by others, if the coach was trying to lead his players in a muslim prayer mid field, you'd have parents left and right losing their freaking minds.
 
Buckeyes85 said:
While that may be one basis by which the practice may be found unconstitutional, it is not the only threshold. It is an issue under the establishment clause of promoting any religion. Not just promoting all religions equally.

The ultimate issue was whether as to the students, this was truly a voluntary activity. An issue which the religious zealots on the court had no problem sweeping aside.

But as mentioned by others, if the coach was trying to lead his players in a muslim prayer mid field, you'd have parents left and right losing their freaking minds.
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Given your comment above - I have to question whether you actually read the decision.
 
Napoleon said:
In reading the decision, this case was not that simple. The coach ceased school traditions (locker room prayer and religious speeches) that pre-dated his employment pursuant to the first letter from the superintendent. In terms of his private prayer, the superintendent initially tried to make him hide in the press box and then flatly prohibited all “religious conduct” at all times.

That is where the school erred. They can’t do that. There is a long list of law and cases that says they can’t and requires reasonable accommodation for religious expression. Furthermore, nobody was coerced into participating in his religious expression. Sometimes some of the players did and sometimes they didn’t. In fact, the last three times he prayed on the field he deliberately waited for the players to leave and did so completely alone. Nobody was pressured to participate and nobody was punished for not participating.

Lastly, the issue of whether or not he was engaging in religious expression in his capacity as a government employee or a private citizen. The majority decided he did so as a private citizen for two reasons. First because his religious expression was not performed as an extension of his official duties. Second, and more pointedly, because he did so after games during a time when employees were allowed to act in their capacity as private citizens, e.g. taking personal phone calls and socializing with friends and family.
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LOL That is like saying a women cannot be coerced by her boss into giving her a blowjob. When a person in a leadership role (like a coach) says you need to pray that is what the players do. Like it or not. The school erred in the belief that the taliban Supreme Court would rule that they have the right to control the proceedings at a school sponsored event. The Satanists of the world are cheering on the fact that now they can insist on equal time. They are going to have a blast disrupting every school event they can and I will be supporting them 100%. Hail Satan.
 
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iguanaman said:
LOL That is like saying a women cannot be coerced by her boss into giving her a blowjob. When a person in a leadership role (like a coach) says you need to pray that is what the players do. Like it or not.
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And, like it or not, there was no coercion in this case. They participated or didn’t at their leisure and free of consequence.
 
tacomancer said:
If its equally open to all religions, even silly ones like people who say they follow the jedi code, then its constitutional. If ANY differentiation is made, it is not.
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The Jewish code is not recognized as a religion is it?
 
Rogue Valley said:
This was funded by conservative dark money and Federalist Society lawyers.
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Possibly the best Senate speech in 2020, Sen. Whitehouse on the Supreme Court and Republicans

I've recommended Sen. Whitehouse's series of speeches titled "The Scheme" on the Supreme Court, but gotten very little response, so if people want to see an outstanding speech summarizing a lot of problems with our situation with big money, Republicans and the Supreme Court in under 20 minutes...
debatepolitics.com debatepolitics.com
 
For years, we've tried to tell people, this top priority of the Republican takeover of the courts is important and coming, and will last for decades, and you can't get people to care. I can't even get people now to watch a 15 minutes speech about it. And this is just the secondary *social* issues, not the corruption and power grabs that are the reason they were put there people don't care about.
 
Napoleon said:
And, like it or not, there was no coercion in this case. They participated or didn’t at their leisure and free of consequence.
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LOL You must be joking or were never involved in school sports. Coaches expect and get 100% obedience from their players and team spirit is the #1 requirement.
 
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