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Coach Lead prayer ruled constitutional

Buckeyes85

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To the surprise of no one, the christian theocracy currently inhabiting the Supreme Court ruled that post game, coach led prayers at midfield are protected speech.

 

noonereal

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Seriously? You don't even check to see if the topic is already posted?
 

Artymoon

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To the surprise of no one, the christian theocracy currently inhabiting the Supreme Court ruled that post game, coach led prayers at midfield are protected speech.

Well, as the constitution reads, it's freedom of religion. Not freedom from religion. As longs as there is no requirement for anyone to participate, I don't see an issue with it.
 

Buckeyes85

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Seriously? You don't even check to see if the topic is already posted?
My bad.

I hope that's the worst thing I do today.

BTW- I have checked now, and I don't see it. Where/when was it posted.
 

noonereal

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Well, as the constitution reads, it's freedom of religion. Not freedom from religion. As longs as there is no requirement for anyone to participate, I don't see an issue with it.

But others are. It is simply left unspoken.
See the other thread.
 

Buckeyes85

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Well, as the constitution reads, it's freedom of religion. Not freedom from religion. As longs as there is no requirement for anyone to participate, I don't see an issue with it.
You are ignoring the establishment clause.

And while participation was not mandated, the issue here was the question of whether or not a high school kid in that situation really has freedom of choice.
I played football in a small town that was overwhelmingly catholic. The coach led the team in the lord's prayer before every game. And believe me, you would stand out if you did not participate.
 

Artymoon

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But others are. It is simply left unspoken.
See the other thread.
So. No one is being forced to participate. Now if the coach stated that you will kneel and take part in my prayer whether you want to or not then I'd have an issue.

You don't have to stay in this thread if you prefer the earlier one.
 

independentusa

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Well, as the constitution reads, it's freedom of religion. Not freedom from religion. As longs as there is no requirement for anyone to participate, I don't see an issue with it.
Sorry, it was done on government owned land. If he wants to go across the street on private property, then I have no problem. Right now because of how kids one to be one of the gang and not stick out, some of the kids will do it even though they might want to or even their religion forbids it. Peer pressure at that age rules.
 

Artymoon

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You are ignoring the establishment clause.

And while participation was not mandated, the issue here was the question of whether or not a high school kid in that situation really has freedom of choice.
I played football in a small town that was overwhelmingly catholic. The coach led the team in the lord's prayer before every game. And believe me, you would stand out if you did not participate.
Not ignoring at all. The government isn't making a law, a ruling was issued based on the constitution. The establishment clause would come into play if the government said Christian prayer is allowed but not Hindu prayer.

I understand peer pressure all too well. However, peer pressure has no bearing on freedom of choice. In legal matters, you'd need to establish there was some kind of repercussions for not participating. That you believed you had no other choice but to participate for fear of reprisal.
 

independentusa

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So. No one is being forced to participate. Now if the coach stated that you will kneel and take part in my prayer whether you want to or not then I'd have an issue.

You don't have to stay in this thread if you prefer the earlier one.
I guess you do not remember being in school and wanting to fit in. No one is physically forcing someone to do it, but peer pressure will do the trick and the coach knows it.
 

Rogue Valley

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Our Taliban Supreme Court is very busy these days with its shotgun marriage of state with religion.

And you know the High School coach didn't take this all the way to the Supreme Court on a coach's salary.

This was funded by conservative dark money and Federalist Society lawyers.
 

noonereal

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You are ignoring the establishment clause.

And while participation was not mandated, the issue here was the question of whether or not a high school kid in that situation really has freedom of choice.
I played football in a small town that was overwhelmingly catholic. The coach led the team in the lord's prayer before every game. And believe me, you would stand out if you did not participate.

As I said in the first thread on this, my kid played at one of the top sports schools in the country on a fully sport scholarship and the same shit although it was the team captain that led the prayer.
This is coercion, period.

I can definitely see a person's preference to avoid these idiotic prays being punished though playing time. And then how do you prove it?

Get this shit off the fields and in the closet where it belongs.

If you want to practice that shit, don't tell, I won't ask. But keep it out of the sight of innocent children.
 

Artymoon

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Sorry, it was done on government owned land. If he wants to go across the street on private property, then I have no problem. Right now because of how kids one to be one of the gang and not stick out, some of the kids will do it even though they might want to or even their religion forbids it. Peer pressure at that age rules.

I guess you do not remember being in school and wanting to fit in. No one is physically forcing someone to do it, but peer pressure will do the trick and the coach knows it.
Peer pressure is strong but is different than freedom of choice. Unless the coach is forcing them or using fear of retaliation if not, then the court ruled based on the constitution.
 

Mr Person

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So. No one is being forced to participate. Now if the coach stated that you will kneel and take part in my prayer whether you want to or not then I'd have an issue.

A post full of feigned obtuseness, or at least that's what I hope it is.

All the coach has to do is make sure that the kids who join him in making a big show of how holy he is get rewarded with more field time, positions they are angling for, and the like, while the others who don't...don't.

There are a million ways to make someone do a thing without actually saying the words "you are going to do this thing or I am going to do X to you"
 

Mr Person

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And of course the reality is, they absolutely do want to shove Christianity down our throats. That's why the Federalist Society exists, starting with abortion. Of course people who want to put prayer back in schools are going to say "but they don't say anyone has to" in defense.

They know how shit works. If a mobster came up to them and said "nice house you got there. Be a shame if anything happen to it", they're not going to be thinking awwwwww what a nice handsome hit man! because duh, of course not.



It's not even real Christianity, like just about everything else they purport to do in the name of "god". Real Christianity says go pray in your closet, don't make a spectacle. The coach wants the spectacle of look at how holy I am; the people backing the decision want the spectacle of see how I support the holy man!

(Nevermind the absurd arrogance of thinking that there is an all-powerful being and it's gonna intervene in reality to make you win a high school game of sportsball.
 

Buckeyes85

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Not ignoring at all. The government isn't making a law, a ruling was issued based on the constitution. The establishment clause would come into play if the government said Christian prayer is allowed but not Hindu prayer.

I understand peer pressure all too well. However, peer pressure has no bearing on freedom of choice. In legal matters, you'd need to establish there was some kind of repercussions for not participating. That you believed you had no other choice but to participate for fear of reprisal.
With all due respect, you are misguided on each of these points.
There doesn't need to be a law, and the establishment clause is not triggered only when one religion is promoted but another is not.
In the context of public education, the promotion of any religion is unconstitutional as a violation of the establishment clause.

And it was the coach challenging the school board on their decision to not have him lead the team in prayer at midfield. So I would think the burden was on him to demonstrate that this practice was truly voluntary.

Of course, the simplest thing would be for this coach, and others like him not to feel the need to force their christian beliefs on others. But apparently that is asking too much.
 

Artymoon

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A post full of feigned obtuseness, or at least that's what I hope it is.

All the coach has to do is make sure that the kids who join him in making a big show of how holy he is get rewarded with more field time, positions they are angling for, and the like, while the others who don't...don't.

There are a million ways to make someone do a thing without actually saying the words "you are going to do this thing or I am going to do X to you"
Well, apparently that didn't happen in this case. I did not follow this suit, but did anyone or group come forward stating they felt forced or else?
 

tacomancer

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With all due respect, you are misguided on each of these points.
There doesn't need to be a law, and the establishment clause is not triggered only when one religion is promoted but another is not.
In the context of public education, the promotion of any religion is unconstitutional as a violation of the establishment clause.

And it was the coach challenging the school board on their decision to not have him lead the team in prayer at midfield. So I would think the burden was on him to demonstrate that this practice was truly voluntary.

Of course, the simplest thing would be for this coach, and others like him not to feel the need to force their christian beliefs on others. But apparently that is asking too much.
SCOTUS was wrong here unless the coach was off the clock and in his role as a private citizen. However, SCOTUS is ruling based on ideology so this was the expected outcome.
 

Bear5131

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As I said in the first thread on this, my kid played at one of the top sports schools in the country on a fully sport scholarship and the same shit although it was the team captain that led the prayer.
This is coercion, period.

I can definitely see a person's preference to avoid these idiotic prays being punished though playing time. And then how do you prove it?

Get this shit off the fields and in the closet where it belongs.

If you want to practice that shit, don't tell, I won't ask. But keep it out of the sight of innocent children.
Is your feelings the same for:


1656349894778.png
 

noonereal

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Is your feelings the same for:


View attachment 67398876

This is not an organized action by the team captain or coach.
Personally, I think team rules should apply on the field. All must stand or be suspended or all must kneel.
But
And I dont see anyone praying. Praying makes it really weird.
 

Rawley

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Rawley

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SCOTUS was wrong here unless the coach was off the clock and in his role as a private citizen. However, SCOTUS is ruling based on ideology so this was the expected outcome.
How are the wrong? What religion is being established by the state by him taking a knee?
 

Artymoon

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With all due respect, you are misguided on each of these points.
There doesn't need to be a law, and the establishment clause is not triggered only when one religion is promoted but another is not.
In the context of public education, the promotion of any religion is unconstitutional as a violation of the establishment clause.

And it was the coach challenging the school board on their decision to not have him lead the team in prayer at midfield. So I would think the burden was on him to demonstrate that this practice was truly voluntary.

Of course, the simplest thing would be for this coach, and others like him not to feel the need to force their christian beliefs on others. But apparently that is asking too much.
The Establishment clause prohibits the government from establishing a religion or favoring a particular one over another. Public schools may not impose religious prayer or practices upon students. Unless this was deemed a mandatory prayer session by the coach or school, then nothing was imposed upon the students.

Yes, the coach had to prove his prayer was voluntary. Mission accomplished as I'm assuming no evidence to the contrary was found since the court ruled in his favor.
 

tacomancer

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How are the wrong? What religion is being established by the state by him taking a knee?
In this case, the establishment of a connection between this coach's religion and official government activities (a government funded and sanctioned football game on government owned property by a government employee acting in his official government role as a coach).
 
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