• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

climate science not faked, study finds

Re: stolen emails don’t support claims that global warming science was faked

AP review: stolen emails don’t support claims that global warming science was faked


That was the Associated Press' recent finding [emphasis added]:

E-mails stolen from climate scientists show they stonewalled skeptics and discussed hiding data — but the messages don’t support claims that the science of global warming was faked, according to an exhaustive review by The Associated Press.

The 1,073 e-mails examined by the AP show that scientists harbored private doubts, however slight and fleeting, even as they told the world they were certain about climate change. However, the exchanges don’t undercut the vast body of evidence showing the world is warming because of man-made greenhouse gas emissions.

The scientists were keenly aware of how their work would be viewed and used, and, just like politicians, went to great pains to shape their message. Sometimes, they sounded more like schoolyard taunts than scientific tenets.

Review: stolen emails don’t support claims that global warming science was faked - BostonHerald.com

They discussed hiding data . . .

This is the ULTIMATE crime for a scientist. Your data MUST be published for review and duplication by other scientists for any theory to be accepted. If you do not release your raw data, and they not only have never done so, but they now claim it was lost or destroyed, then your conclusions are worth nothing.

Science is all about releasing your data, analysis, and conclusions to prove your point. Leave the raw data out of it and the rest is just hot air (pun intended). Refusal to release your raw data is basically seen as an admission that your case is weak and may not be defensible in the scientific community.
 
Re: stolen emails don’t support claims that global warming science was faked

Science-gate
 
Re: stolen emails don’t support claims that global warming science was faked

The general direction of their discussions were how to avoid having to release their raw data to the public or scientific community due to Freedom of Information requests. It is interesting that one of their possible solutions was to destroy the raw data - it is mentioned in at least 10 of the e-mails. Any scientist that even considered such a thing should no longer be a scientist. Why be so defensive about their raw data if they had nothing to hide about their analysis or conclusion?
 
Re: stolen emails don’t support claims that global warming science was faked


For the record, most physicists recognize that there is no such thing as gravity - its just that the Earth sucks . . . :)
 
Re: stolen emails don’t support claims that global warming science was faked

AP review: stolen emails don’t support claims that global warming science was faked


That was the Associated Press' recent finding [emphasis added]:

E-mails stolen from climate scientists show they stonewalled skeptics and discussed hiding data — but the messages don’t support claims that the science of global warming was faked, according to an exhaustive review by The Associated Press.

The 1,073 e-mails examined by the AP show that scientists harbored private doubts, however slight and fleeting, even as they told the world they were certain about climate change. However, the exchanges don’t undercut the vast body of evidence showing the world is warming because of man-made greenhouse gas emissions.

The scientists were keenly aware of how their work would be viewed and used, and, just like politicians, went to great pains to shape their message. Sometimes, they sounded more like schoolyard taunts than scientific tenets.

Review: stolen emails don’t support claims that global warming science was faked - BostonHerald.com

Ummm....what "vast body of evidence" and what "warming"? Last time I checked, there's no evidence and no warming. That last is the reason the con-men shifted to calling their imaginary scenario "global climate change" instead of "global warming".

Funny, though, since they're con-men with the goal of promoting hysteria and government control, that they're prescribing the exact same "medicine" for "global climate change", also more honestly known as "global cooling" as they do for "global warming".

Can you religiously devoted people explain why your high priests are promoting the same cure, a slap in the head, for hypo-thermia as they did for heat exhaustion?

Hmmmm?
 
Re: stolen emails don’t support claims that global warming science was faked

What's MOS?

:rofl:rofl:rofl Stunning display of ignorance for a guy claiming to be SF.
 
Re: stolen emails don’t support claims that global warming science was faked

AP review: stolen emails don’t support claims that global warming science was faked


That was the Associated Press' recent finding [emphasis added]:

E-mails stolen from climate scientists show they stonewalled skeptics and discussed hiding data — but the messages don’t support claims that the science of global warming was faked, according to an exhaustive review by The Associated Press.

The 1,073 e-mails examined by the AP show that scientists harbored private doubts, however slight and fleeting, even as they told the world they were certain about climate change. However, the exchanges don’t undercut the vast body of evidence showing the world is warming because of man-made greenhouse gas emissions.

The scientists were keenly aware of how their work would be viewed and used, and, just like politicians, went to great pains to shape their message. Sometimes, they sounded more like schoolyard taunts than scientific tenets.

Review: stolen emails don’t support claims that global warming science was faked - BostonHerald.com


And here I am, thinking you'd given up your trolling ways...
 
Re: stolen emails don’t support claims that global warming science was faked

And here I am, thinking you'd given up your trolling ways...
You know those British scientists, they are correct as long as they hold their pinkies out.
 
The moronic members of the cult of denial of anthropogenic global warming/climate change.....

One could stop reading right there, as you post gives nothing, but in reading further we discover 1: you believe the AP is an authoritative body to conduct a scientific study, and 2: of course the AP is going to cover there asses by claiming they haven't been lying for decades....which might be why they aren't an authority on this...well, that an a total lack of credentials in meteorology and related fields...I mean unless you count the weather man....
 
The problem I have with AGW is:

1. It is a theory based upon un-published raw data. As the e-mails reveal, they have actively fought to keep the raw data private and have yet to make it available to the scientific community. The article points out that this is not standard scientific methods.

2. They now claim that the majority of the raw data has been destroyed or lost. So we now have to wait another 15 to 20 years to gather the data again for analysis.

3. While they are once again building their case SCIENTIFICALLY they have done an end-run and convinced the politicians to do something - all of their solutions are fairly economically drastic and potentially ruinous. The developed nations of the world could probably absorb some of these costs but the rest of the world could be ruined economically for the next 100 years.

4. The e-mails also openly discuss how to 'stack the deck' on peer review boards to promote their theory and prevent anyone questioning it from being published. This is basic human nature, but some of their methods are ethically questionable.

5. Yes it is an ethical issue on several levels.

6. Their climate model predicts the loss of the Gulf Stream in the Antlantic. This would stop the warm waters of the equator from going up into the Artic regions, thereby cooling Northern Europe and possibly triggering an ice age. Thus the change of name of the theory from Global Warming to Climate Change.

REMEMBER - AGW is a THEORY. That means that it must be proved to the scientific community and accepted as fact before it moves beyond the theory stage. The way to do this is to be completely open with the raw data and analysis methods. The AGW scientists have not been even remotely open about it. The burden of proof of a theory falls upon the shoulders of its advocates, the burden of proof does not fall upon the shoulders of other scientists to disprove it. When they start to follow traditional scientific methods, I will start to respect them and their theory, until then, all they are doing is a political motivated stunt and not science.
 
Do you honestly think our demand for oil is going to suddenly disappear if man made global warming is proven to be real?

Our continued wasteful use of oil seems to proportional our stupidity as a species.
 
The Liberal wackos will go to any lengths to avoid the truth and the even claim science is on their side, which is a joke because science is on every side of every issue. What matters is the facts not some projection by a computer model that to date can't explain why it didn't predict all the cooling in the last 10 years.
Al Gore goes around lying about the polar ice melting when in fact it's pretty darn close to where it usually is size and depth wise.

The wackos claim sea level will rise by an amount that is impossible because if all the ice in the world melted it wouldn't change the sea level more than a few inches. hey claim it already up in places ignoring the part about it being impossible to up in only a couple places. What a bunch of dumb asses.

Global warming is now and has always been a total HOAX the problem now is that those whio have been duped won't admit they were lied to because it makes then look stupid for believing in the first place. We have the same thing with people claiming Obama has been doing a wonderful job.

The problem they have is there is nothing they can point to that he did that was good because so far all he's done is promote his Socialist/Communist agenda and run around the world blaming America for everything that ever went wrong. He has also shown he's a racist on more than once occasion, and he's an apologist for Muslim terrorists. Oh yes and spending millions an personal dates, travel, parties and pizza for lunch, and don't forget beer.

He and the rest of the commie radicals and felons are now ignoring the truth about the Global Warming Hoax and the 5th column Obamedea is helping every step od the way.
 
Re: stolen emails don’t support claims that global warming science was faked

The general direction of their discussions were how to avoid having to release their raw data to the public or scientific community due to Freedom of Information requests. It is interesting that one of their possible solutions was to destroy the raw data - it is mentioned in at least 10 of the e-mails. Any scientist that even considered such a thing should no longer be a scientist. Why be so defensive about their raw data if they had nothing to hide about their analysis or conclusion?

Scientists Return Fire at Climate Skeptics in 'Destroyed Data' Dispute

Climate scientists are refuting claims that raw data used in critical climate change reports has been destroyed, rendering the reports and policies based on those reports unreliable.

The Competitive Enterprise Institute, a free-market advocacy group, is arguing that U.S. EPA's climate policies rely on raw data that have been destroyed and are therefore unreliable. The nonprofit group -- a staunch critic of U.S. EPA's efforts to regulate greenhouse gases -- petitioned (pdf) the agency last week to reopen the public comment period on its proposed "endangerment finding" because the data set had been lost (E&ENews PM, Oct. 9).

But climate scientists familiar with the data insist that the reports are based on sound science and that the data in question was altered as part of standard operating procedure to ensure consistency across reporting stations.

At issue is raw data from the Climatic Research Unit at the University of East Anglia in Norwich, England, including surface temperature averages from weather stations around the world. The data was used in assessments by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, reports that EPA has used in turn to formulate its climate policies.

Citing a statement on the research unit's Web site, CEI blasted the research unit for the "suspicious destruction of its original data." According to CRU's Web site, "Data storage availability in the 1980s meant that we were not able to keep the multiple sources for some sites, only the station series after adjustment for homogeneity issues. We, therefore, do not hold the original raw data but only the value-added (i.e. quality controlled and homogenized) data."

Phil Jones, director of the Climatic Research Unit, said that the vast majority of the station data was not altered at all, and the small amount that was changed was adjusted for consistency.

The research unit has deleted less than 5 percent of its original station data from its database because the stations had several discontinuities or were affected by urbanization trends, Jones said.

"When you're looking at climate data, you don't want stations that are showing urban warming trends," Jones said, "so we've taken them out." Most of the stations for which data was removed are located in areas where there were already dense monitoring networks, he added. "We rarely removed a station in a data-sparse region of the world."

Refuting CEI's claims of data-destruction, Jones said, "We haven't destroyed anything. The data is still there -- you can still get these stations from the [NOAA] National Climatic Data Center."

Tom Karl, director of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's National Climatic Data Center in Asheville, N.C., noted that the conclusions of the IPCC reports are based on several data sets in addition to the CRU, including data from NOAA, NASA and the United Kingdom Met Office. Each of those data sets basically show identical multi-decadal trends, Karl said.

Still, CEI's general counsel Sam Kazman remains skeptical of the IPCC's conclusions. The fact that the report relies on several data sets "doesn't really answer the issue," he said.

CEI and Cato Institute senior fellow Patrick Michaels argued that the "destruction of [CRU's] raw data violates basic scientific norms regarding reproducibility, which are especially important in climatology."

Ben Santer, a climate scientist at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, dismissed that argument. "Raw data were not secretly destroyed to avoid efforts by other scientists to replicate the CRU and Hadley Centre-based estimates of global-scale changes in near-surface temperature," he wrote in comments to the advocacy group Climate Science Watch.

Santer said CRU's major findings were replicated by other groups, including the NOAA climatic data center, the NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies, and also in Russia.

Scientists Return Fire at Climate Skeptics in 'Destroyed Data' Dispute - NYTimes.com
 
It is a theory based upon un-published raw data.

The original data is curated at the met services where it originated

In response to a comment on his blog Real Climate asking whether it is true that the CRU lost the data, Gavin Schmidt, a climate scientist at NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies, replied: "No. The original data is curated at the met services where it originated."

RealClimate: Where’s the data?
 
Re: stolen emails don’t support claims that global warming science was faked


In the article it states:

According to CRU's Web site, "Data storage availability in the 1980s meant that we were not able to keep the multiple sources for some sites, only the station series after adjustment for homogeneity issues. We, therefore, do not hold the original raw data but only the value-added (i.e. quality controlled and homogenized) data."

and

CEI and Cato Institute senior fellow Patrick Michaels argued that the "destruction of [CRU's] raw data violates basic scientific norms regarding reproducibility, which are especially important in climatology."

So the data they have is not the raw data but rather the manipulated data. There is a difference. They stated that they dropped or altered data in order to get rid of inconsistency, but the standard scientific method is to still make that data available for analysis by other scientists but note which data had been changed or dropped and why. They did not do this. And when you couple this lack with the exchange of ideas in the e-mails about altering, deleting, and hiding data it just gets more suspicious. The problem here is the lack of the raw data, the continued disregard of releasing its data in any form over the past ten years, and - now - the collusion to avoid following legal and scientific procedures.

They also point out that the data is still available at the collection sites, but they do not explain WHICH data they based their analysis on. I could come up with a theory, use random data that I create out of thin air to support the theory, and then claim "the data is out there" to any questions from people. This does not a scientific theory make.
 
Re: stolen emails don’t support claims that global warming science was faked

And here I am, thinking you'd given up your trolling ways...

Once you go troll you never re-roll :mrgreen:
 
Our continued wasteful use of oil seems to proportional our stupidity as a species.

That has nothing to do with the question, so I will ask it again.
Do you honestly think our demand for oil is going to suddenly disappear if man made global warming(Oh excuse me I mean man made climate change so that way you religious nuts can still claim to be right even it gets colder) is proven to be real?
 
One organization was discredited, I'd hardly call them the "High Priests". There are still hundreds of others with corroborative data which proves AGW exists.

No, this is absolutely false. AGW is NOT proven. There is no causal link between the rise in temperatures and the rise in C02, rather, there is a rise in C02 that correlates with a rise in temperatures. That is not proof of anything.
 
Do you honestly think our demand for oil is going to suddenly disappear if man made global warming.

No one is expecting our demand for oil to suddenly disappear when it is obvious to all the deniers that we are causing global warming. But we will have to transition to a reduced output of CO2. Otherwise we would be knowingly contributing to our own extinction. Is man as species that stupid? Very possibly.

Aside from the environmental concerns, from a strictly economic perspective, if you add in the cost of the Middle East wars to continue our present wasteful use of oil, it is much more expensive that what we can do with renewable sources.
 
No, this is absolutely false. AGW is NOT proven. There is no causal link between the rise in temperatures and the rise in C02, rather, there is a rise in C02 that correlates with a rise in temperatures. That is not proof of anything.

But the cooling of the stratosphere is.
 
Back
Top Bottom