Christianity - the real target of hate in gay issue

[MikeyC]

The Congress never said that the Bible was accurate. The wording of it was actually against the First Amendment by saying "The Bible, The Word of God" (Notice the lack if "is" in the law). I personally think that "The Word of God" portion of that statement simply was meant to be a summary of what the Bible is believed to be. How is Congress saying "The Bible, The Word of God" all of a sudden more substantiated than when the Smithsonian says the Bible is not historical evidence? They never backed up that the Bible was accurate with evidence. When I back up that the Bible is inaccurate, I usually say (Or at least mean), that the mysticism in the Bible can't be proved since it goes against the laws of nature. Also, the bill's goal was clearly just to honor that the Bible has been a positive influence on our nation. Congress also passed laws that a black person was only 3/5ths of a person, that doesn't make it a fact...

 

[MikeyC]

After further analyzing the law, it only proclaims 1983 as "The Year of the Bible" just more clearly verify that this law simply honors the Bible. Again, all it says is "The Bible, The Word of God" simply using "The Word of God" to summarize what the beliefs of the Bible are. "Whereas that renewing our knowledge of and faith in God through Holy Scripture can strengthen us as a nation and a people: Now, therefore, be it."

 

[JustineCredible]

IS

Again with the really big fonts? Do you think yelling it makes it more credible? Sorry, it only makes you look like a desperate man clinging to his ancient book of fairy tales.

 

[Gandhi>Bush]

Oh if you knew anything about the SCriptures . . . which you don't . . . .Christ and other righteous men hurled insults at the wicked. . . that would be you the hate groups.

When did CHRIST(JESUS) ever hurl insults at the wicked? I want to know this. Give me that verse or a cartoon or something.

Shamgar, I would like a response to that please. Thanks.

 

[Shamgar]

Shamgar, I would like a response to that please. Thanks.

Oops . . . was ready to post it once but got distracted. . . .

After further analyzing the law, it only proclaims 1983 as "The Year of the Bible" just more clearly verify that this law simply honors the Bible. Again, all it says is "The Bible, The Word of God" simply using "The Word of God" to summarize what the beliefs of the Bible are. "Whereas that renewing our knowledge of and faith in God through Holy Scripture can strengthen us as a nation and a people: Now, therefore, be it."

"After further analysis" by the biased God hater . . . .

 

[MikeyC]

And you have no bias, Shamgar?

 

[Shamgar]

And you have no bias, Shamgar?

I don't need to be biased since I have truth on my side . . .. you however have lies on your side so you use bias to promote your lies . . . .

John 14: 6 Jesus saith to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no man cometh to the Father, but by me.

 

[Alex]

I'll admit the Bible has some historical accuracy, like Jesus really did exist.

There is no way you could possibly know this for sure. Prove it.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

There is no way you could possibly know this for sure. Prove it.

Well, we have the writings of Josepheus, a greek historian at the time. Along with the word of a Roman doctor at the time. We have second hand manuscript speaking of Him. The reality is that when you look at the historical documentation having to do with Christ, it is abundant and it is for all intensive purposes congruent with each other. That is how we "prove" someone existed in history.

 

[shuamort]

Well, we have the writings of Josepheus, a greek historian at the time. Along with the word of a Roman doctor at the time. We have second hand manuscript speaking of Him. The reality is that when you look at the historical documentation having to do with Christ, it is abundant and it is for all intensive purposes congruent with each other. That is how we "prove" someone existed in history.

Source.......

The Roman historian Tacitus, writing in his Annals around 110 AD, mentions one "Christ, whom the procurator Pontius Pilate had executed in the reign of Tiberius." The Jewish historian Josephus remarks on the stoning of "James, the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ." The Talmud, a collection of Jewish writings, also refers to Christ, although it says he was the illegitimate son of a Roman soldier called Panther. Doubts about the historicity of Christ did not surface until the 18th century. In short, whether or not JC was truly the Son of God, he was probably the son of somebody.

 

[Dogger807]

OK OK... we've been all over the does god exist and is the bible valid issue. this is subject to a thread all in itself.

I was wondering though.... does anyone believe that christianity is the real target of hate in the gay issue or is it just a flame starter.

I came to this thread expecting some kind of argument for this view for me to debate against. Instead I got called a god hater, a fool , and otherwise sneered at for having a different point of view, by one who quickly loses any validity through excessive fanaticism.

 

[MikeyC]

No, Christianity isn't a target because a Christian Church can still deny any marriage they choose. It's the government that shouldn't have the ability to deny a homosexual marriage.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

I believe that to suggest that Christians are the target in the "gay issue" (what is that by the way?) is ridiculous. Christians are not being attacked by the gay community, it is certainly, for the most part, the other way around. Although, it must be mentioned that it is not only Christians who are opposing to homosexuality. There are plenty of other faiths and individuals lying outside of any form of Christianity that make homoesexuals into enemies. I'm not sure if it is simply that Christianity is the preffered faith of a good number of our law makers at this point, or if it just that people expect more from Christians (which personally, I should hope they would, because Christians should stand outside for their moral and spirtual maturity). Unfortunately, there are enough Christians that are hateful to homosexuals that it pitts anger in homosexuals against Christians. So, are Christians a target? No, but a lot of us are getting undeserved animosity based on the actions and words of some of our brothers and sisters in our faith (whether we agree or approve of their actions/words or not). But I can certainly understand where homosexuals would be angry at some Christians, because I know I am.

 

[Montalban]

Wait, didn't I just tell you?
Okay, let me put it this way

John 3:16 For God so LOVED the WORLD that HE GAVE His ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, that WHOSOEVER believeth shall not perish but have ever lasting life.

That's it. All the rest of the Bible simply continues that message.

The important thing is to believe that Christ died for us so that we may have everlasting life. It's not saying "IF you just believe in Christ", because if that were the interpretation, then Muslims are okay, becuase they too believe in Christ; even a Satanist can 'believe' in Him; using Him as the 'norm' to which they are rebelling.

It means, instead to have 'right faith' in Jesus.

And as such Jesus came to warn us from sin; such as adultery. Homosexuality is not specifically mentioned by Jesus, but neither is child molestation or bestiality... and the Bible itself notes that not everything spoken by or taught by Jesus is in the Bible (see the last verse of the last chapter of John)

Homosexuality is mentioned by Paul, and many other church fathers.

 

[Montalban]

I believe that to suggest that Christians are the target in the "gay issue" (what is that by the way?) is ridiculous. Christians are not being attacked by the gay community, it is certainly, for the most part, the other way around.

This is false. They are promoting a lifestyle that is inherrently anti-Christian.

Here in Australia a former Justice of the High Court, and homosexual, Michael Kirby openly ridiculed Christianity; by drawing false argument regarding laws from Leviticus that are no longer kept

At Gay Mardi Gras, the Protestant Rev Fred Nile is normally shown in ridiculous effigy.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

The important thing is to believe that Christ died for us so that we may have everlasting life. It's not saying "IF you just believe in Christ", because if that were the interpretation, then Muslims are okay, becuase they too believe in Christ; even a Satanist can 'believe' in Him; using Him as the 'norm' to which they are rebelling.

Right. I didn't go into the word "believe" as it appears in the text, but the belief that appears in this text means essentially as you said, to have a right faith with Christ. It is an acceptance of that sacrifice, but it is an acceptance that includes belief, action, and reaction. Thank you for clarifying that.

Homosexuality is mentioned by Paul, and many other church fathers.

Because shuamort brought up the issue of the word Paul uses arsenokoite, which who claims is ambigious (I'm still researching this by the way), so I give him the benefit of the doubt and say that perhaps Paul didn't direct homosexuality specifically, but rather, he did specifically address the will of God regarding marriage, specifying that there is a role for for a man and his wife and that sex should not be engaged in outside of wedlock.

 

[sebastiansdreams]

This is false. They are promoting a lifestyle that is inherrently anti-Christian.

Here in Australia a former Justice of the High Court, and homosexual, Michael Kirby openly ridiculed Christianity; by drawing false argument regarding laws from Leviticus that are no longer kept

At Gay Mardi Gras, the Protestant Rev Fred Nile is normally shown in ridiculous effigy.

But don't you think this is in response to Christian attacks pre-dating? Michael Kirby is one man you realize. Jerry Fallwell has gone so far as to suggest that the World Trade Center attacks occured because of sinful behavior of New Yorkians (such as homosexuality). But I certainly do not agree with him and his attack on homosexuals.

A liar is, arguably, equally as guilty of promoting a lifestyle that is inherrently anti-Christian. But that does not mean that Christians are being targeted because some people choose to live as liars.

 

[Montalban]

Because shuamort brought up the issue of the word Paul uses arsenokoite, which who claims is ambigious (I'm still researching this by the way), so I give him the benefit of the doubt and say that perhaps Paul didn't direct homosexuality specifically, but rather, he did specifically address the will of God regarding marriage, specifying that there is a role for for a man and his wife and that sex should not be engaged in outside of wedlock.

My faith is not based solely on the Bible therefore the correct interpreation of St. Paul is in the context of the tradition of the church which is against the sin of homosexuality.

But even if you ignore this, it is also in the Bible...
Romans 1:26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

 

[Montalban]

But don't you think this is in response to Christian attacks pre-dating? Michael Kirby is one man you realize. Jerry Fallwell has gone so far as to suggest that the World Trade Center attacks occured because of sinful behavior of New Yorkians (such as homosexuality). But I certainly do not agree with him and his attack on homosexuals.

A liar is, arguably, equally as guilty of promoting a lifestyle that is inherrently anti-Christian. But that does not mean that Christians are being targeted because some people choose to live as liars.

I don't believe that in general that there's an organised attempt to attack Christianity, but it is learnt in schools (here) that it is okay to belittle Christianity. There's everything from comedy skits etc (barely anyone (here) lampoons Islam). You can speak out against Christians; speak out against Islam and you're accused of villifying it

Everything from the current "Popetown" cartoon (showing soon here on Cable; and note - I'm not Catholic).*

I'm ignorant of Jerry Fallwell; I imediately though you were speaking of Mick Jagger's former wife. I don't agree with 'attacks' on homosexuality in the sense of physical attacks, but for Christians homosexuality is a sin and we should not apologise for believing it so.


*This could also be evidence for a lack of sense of humour.

 

[MikeyC]

Heh, in school this year we read some Voltaire which pointed out hypocracy in the church. But this was hundreds of years ago. In history class we learned about how the Catholic Church ran everybody's life in the Middle Ages in Europe and that it had a very strong influence in politics. Christianity doesn't have a perfect past and schools shouldn't try to mask the truth. A lot of the students who read about the hypocracy went to Bible Camp a few weeks later. Just as we are asked to think critically about all pieces of literature, we also were asked to think critically about Voltaire's view of the church.

 

[Montalban]

Heh, in school this year we read some Voltaire which pointed out hypocracy in the church. But this was hundreds of years ago. In history class we learned about how the Catholic Church ran everybody's life in the Middle Ages in Europe and that it had a very strong influence in politics. Christianity doesn't have a perfect past and schools shouldn't try to mask the truth. A lot of the students who read about the hypocracy went to Bible Camp a few weeks later. Just as we are asked to think critically about all pieces of literature, we also were asked to think critically about Voltaire's view of the church.

The Catholic Church did not run everybody's life in Europe in the Middle Ages.

The Orthodox Church exists/existed over much of Europe.

What you heard was 'pop' history.

 

[MikeyC]

Err, meant to say Western Europe.

 

[JustineCredible]

I'm ignorant of Jerry Fallwell; I imediately though you were speaking of Mick Jagger's former wife. I don't agree with 'attacks' on homosexuality in the sense of physical attacks, but for Christians homosexuality is a sin and we should not apologise for believing it so.

Humor is humor, from religion to politics, everyone is fair game when it comes to humor. Granted, I'm not fond of disrespecting entire religions, but when it comes to specific people who hide behind the Bible or their peticular brand of religion, I say "PLAY ON!"

Jerry Falwell's words on the 9/11 attacks:
God Gave U.S. 'What We Deserve,' Falwell Says

"The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say, 'You helped this happen.' "

Let us not also forget the words of Rev. Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church: "God hates F*gs"

Gad Hates Fags

...and the plethora of attacks by various so called Christians...all geared toward the Gay Community.

The Christian Right is on a new mission: To drive homosexuality back into the closet. Inside the war rooms of evangelical intolerance.

 

[JustineCredible]

Look, there will always be the oens, you know, like the homosexuals you spoke of who fought for animal sexual freedom? The message of the Bible and of Christ is as clear as it can be. It is simply some of the people who just don't get it.

Clear? Give me a break, the man spoke in parables half the time! Honey, parables are stories which are highly subjective. I've noticed you have quite the issue with subjective and direct in many of your arguments.

 

[JustineCredible]

Are you unfamiliar with "medical miracles?" If you fist don't believe in a an active God, then why would you believe in miracles? If you do believe in an active God, how could you not?

The sun rising and setting was considered a miracle until science proved that our galaxy revolves around the sun and not the other way around.

All miracles you infer will one day be understood by science. Does this diminish their incredible impact, no. But are they miracles? Not really.

Unexplained remission of cancer is just that, unexplained. It seems like a miracle simply because we don't understand the science of it as of yet.

Sweetie, birth was considered a "medical miracle" until science figured out how it all worked.
Or do you not know the history of it's misunderstanding which actually allowed Henry VIII to behead Anne Boleyn because she couldn't bear him a son? They didn't know back then that it was actually Henry's fault that he didn't have but one sickly son. They didn't know the science of genetics, we still don't fully understand all of it even today.
But we have a much better understanding of it than we did five hundred years ago.