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Christian conservatives target seated judges

lizzie

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The American Taliban at their fine work as always. It funny that people on the right think it ok too use religions as their law of the land.
I highly recommend reading "The Kite Runner" and "A Thousand Splendid Suns" by Khaled Housseini if you want some perspective on Taliban rule. There is no choice of unseating judges via elections- just brute force and unbelievable human cruelty. I'm surprised that you so lightly dismiss Christian conservatives, many of whom are really good and decent people, as being in any way similar to a political/religious ruling group with such brutality. Maybe reading some well-written novels about Afghani culture will provide some badly-needed perspective.
 

Toothpicvic

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I highly recommend reading "The Kite Runner" and "A Thousand Splendid Suns" by Khaled Housseini if you want some perspective on Taliban rule. There is no choice of unseating judges via elections- just brute force and unbelievable human cruelty. I'm surprised that you so lightly dismiss Christian conservatives, many of whom are really good and decent people, as being in any way similar to a political/religious ruling group with such brutality. Maybe reading some well-written novels about Afghani culture will provide some badly-needed perspective.
The Mafia is a better comparison than the Taliban. That's too extreme. But these guys are still a bunch of out-of-touch elitist morons who hate the American People, just like the Taliban.

Now that I think of it, why do they call these radical Christ****ers "conservative" - there's nothing conservative about them, since they're not in touch with the common man, they're openly against America's values (and want to replace it with their 'Christian' "values"), etc etc.

They sound more like Marxist revolutionaries if you ask me. They can burn in hell.
 

molten_dragon

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The problem isn't that a group of people is trying to get judges elected that support their beliefs. The problem is that California's judges are chosen by direct election rather than appointment.
 

Hoplite

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I highly recommend reading "The Kite Runner" and "A Thousand Splendid Suns" by Khaled Housseini if you want some perspective on Taliban rule. There is no choice of unseating judges via elections- just brute force and unbelievable human cruelty. I'm surprised that you so lightly dismiss Christian conservatives, many of whom are really good and decent people, as being in any way similar to a political/religious ruling group with such brutality. Maybe reading some well-written novels about Afghani culture will provide some badly-needed perspective.
I have to agree with the spirit of the OP. The religious right in the US demonstrates behavior that is Taliban-lite and considering what tends to flare up with a sensitive issue comes up, the "lite" would swiftly be dropped if our country was in the state of many Middle East countries. I remember people cheering on Scott Roeder when he murdered Dr Tiller, that was a truly scary thing to see.
 
G

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I highly recommend reading "The Kite Runner" and "A Thousand Splendid Suns" by Khaled Housseini if you want some perspective on Taliban rule. There is no choice of unseating judges via elections- just brute force and unbelievable human cruelty. I'm surprised that you so lightly dismiss Christian conservatives, many of whom are really good and decent people, as being in any way similar to a political/religious ruling group with such brutality. Maybe reading some well-written novels about Afghani culture will provide some badly-needed perspective.
Sorry but these guys are a bunch of tool bags. Christians haven't prove to anyone that there decent people at all or they respect the law of the land. Sorry
 

Jerry

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The American Taliban at their fine work as always. It funny that people on the right think it ok too use religions as their law of the land.
Did you want to maybe tell us a little something about the topic you wanted to debate?
  • Who's the Christian group?
  • Are they actually Christians or just some radicals claiming to be Christian but who don't actually walk the walk?
  • Who's the Judge?
  • Why is the judge being "targeted"? Is this over case-law or a specific ruling? What are the common arguments for the given sides?
  • How is he being "targeted"? Are they picketing his home, trying to have him disbarred, just running at the mouth on a few morning shows, what?
 
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tacomancer

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The problem isn't that a group of people is trying to get judges elected that support their beliefs. The problem is that California's judges are chosen by direct election rather than appointment.
Really, neither direct election nor appointment are good systems without problems. But so far noone has thought of a better one.
 

RyrineaHaruno

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Did you want to maybe tell us a little something about the topic you wanted to debate?
  • Who's the Christian group?
  • Are they actually Christians or just some radicals claiming to be Christian but who don't actually walk the walk?
  • Who's the Judge?
  • Why is the judge being "targeted"? Is this over case-law or a specific ruling? What are the common arguments for the given sides?
  • How is he being "targeted"? Are they picketing his home, trying to have him disbarred, just running at the mouth on a few morning shows, what?
1.) A group of conservative attorneys say they are on a mission from God............."
2.) They are Christans that are the fundimentlist type I beleive which belong too the Zion Fellowship church, which is apart of the the Better Courts Now organizaton
3.) Four judges they didn't say thier names, but they are all democrats amzing isn't it?
4.) It looks like mostly online thought.
5.)) They are trying to pack the court rooms with people that have christan right vaules wich will take out the impartailty in the court room.These people are trying to turn our court room basied on beleifs systems. And what a pack of hypoicrte who crictize people for actives ruling when they are doing the same thing.
 

RyrineaHaruno

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I highly recommend reading "The Kite Runner" and "A Thousand Splendid Suns" by Khaled Housseini if you want some perspective on Taliban rule. There is no choice of unseating judges via elections- just brute force and unbelievable human cruelty. I'm surprised that you so lightly dismiss Christian conservatives, many of whom are really good and decent people, as being in any way similar to a political/religious ruling group with such brutality. Maybe reading some well-written novels about Afghani culture will provide some badly-needed perspective.
Oh., I agree, I just said that the American TALIBAN the ultra fundamentalist Christan right NOT Ever right winger.I said they have some characterization of the Taliban.
 
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Jerry

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1.) A group of conservative attorneys say they are on a mission from God............."
2.) They are Christans that are the fundimentlist type I beleive which belong too the Zion Fellowship church, which is apart of the the Better Courts Now organizaton
3.) Four judges they didn't say thier names, but they are all democrats amzing isn't it?
4.) It looks like mostly online thought.
5.)) They are trying to pack the court rooms with people that have christan right vaules wich will take out the impartailty in the court room.These people are trying to turn our court room basied on beleifs systems. And what a pack of hypoicrte who crictize people for actives ruling when they are doing the same thing.
Thank you for that. Yeah I couldn't care less about it. Have a good one :)
 

lizzie

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Oh., I agree, I just said that the American TALIBAN the ultra fundamentalist Christan right NOT Ever right winger.I said they have some characterization of the Taliban.

Whose hands have they been cutting off, or who has been stoned in the public arena lately? Seriously- there is absolutely no comparison.
 

Hoplite

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Whose hands have they been cutting off, or who has been stoned in the public arena lately? Seriously- there is absolutely no comparison.
There is plenty of comparison in mentality. Both groups have a fundamentalist "Im right and anyone who disagrees with me is an enemy" mentality and either directly use violence against those they dislike, or they condone it's use. The Taliban is much more open about it, however in the US when something like the murder of Dr Tiller happens, the Christian right generally sticks up for these individuals. Christians as a group have no duty whatsoever to answer for or automatically condemn people like that, but the fact that MANY people on the right either make excuses for things like that or the outright say it was a good thing or that the killer shouldnt be punished.
 

lizzie

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There is plenty of comparison in mentality. Both groups have a fundamentalist "Im right and anyone who disagrees with me is an enemy" mentality and either directly use violence against those they dislike, or they condone it's use.
Sorry, but attitude and action are two quite different methodologies. I can live alongside someone who thinks they are right, and the rest of the world be damned, as long as they aren't causing harm to others. As for the occasional nutcase, sure that kind of **** happens, but there is no political entity condoning the use of violence in this country that are religious conservatives- at least not that I've seen evidence of.
 

RyrineaHaruno

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FluffyNinja

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Some charactizticts not all charactizticts of the Taliaban not all the charactizticts, and yes I tend to agree that not all of them act like Taliaban but some do these are the people I say are the American Taliaban.


'Christian terrorism' | OregonLive.com
Your source above is an OpEd from Leonard Pitts, Jr. (an obviously biased Left Wing editorialist) and most of the cases he cites in his piece cannot be attributed to Conservative Christians as a whole - to do so would be sterotypical thinking. Matthew Hale, for example is an avowed white supremacist and his religion, aptly named, is the White Separatist religion. I have been in many, many Christian churches (in the Deep South too I might add) and have NEVER witnessed ANY doctrine that would accept this "man", his "church" or his beliefs. To lump the few freaks like this in with the vast Christian Conservative movement is both misrepresentational and naive.
 

lizzie

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Some charactizticts not all charactizticts of the Taliaban not all the charactizticts, and yes I tend to agree that not all of them act like Taliaban but some do these are the people I say are the American Taliaban.
I would say that the vast majority of Christian conservatives absolutely do not agree with the type of groups you linked to. Based on the linked information, there appears to be wide disagreement among the groups themselves. Believe what you want, but Christians are generally of the belief that they should love their fellow man, not condemn him. Another thing to take into consideration, is that the citizens of this country have more "power" at the personal level, and would not allow this type of domination by any religious group. The cultural and psychological differences between a country like Afghanistan and the US are so apparent and vast that there is no logical comparison to be made at the level of political realities and possibilities.
 

lizzie

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Your source above is an OpEd from Leonard Pitts, Jr. (an obviously biased Left Wing editorialist) and most of the cases he cites in his piece cannot be attributed to Conservative Christians as a whole - to do so would be sterotypical thinking. Matthew Hale, for example is an avowed white supremacist and his religion, aptly named, is the White Separatist religion. I have been in many, many Christian churches (in the Deep South too I might add) and have NEVER witnessed ANY doctrine that would accept this "man", his "church" or his beliefs. To lump the few freaks like this in with the vast Christian Conservative movement is both misrepresentational and naive.
Ahhh- good old Leonard- I completely missed that. Good catch! :) And yes, I agree with your assessment of the information as presented completely.
 

Hoplite

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Sorry, but attitude and action are two quite different methodologies.
Attitude is the first nail you put into the coffin you build for the aftermath of the action.

I can live alongside someone who thinks they are right, and the rest of the world be damned, as long as they aren't causing harm to others. As for the occasional nutcase, sure that kind of **** happens, but there is no political entity condoning the use of violence in this country that are religious conservatives- at least not that I've seen evidence of.
The pro-life movement has MANY people in it that condone the use of violence. Do a quick search on YouTube, people put videos up there as reactions to the murder of Dr Tiller that will make you sick. Search for op-ed pieces.

The idea of "Im right and everyone else is the enemy" coupled with political power has always resulted in bad things. We already have legislation of things that shouldnt be legislated but are anyways due to religious beliefs and our government is almost entirely closed to anyone with any non-Judeo-Christian beliefs or with no beliefs at all.

The Right cant be as overt as the Taliban because that's not the way this part of the world works, you cant shoot your opponents down in the street. But their attitude, goals, and ruthlessness is mirror image.
 

lizzie

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Attitude is the first nail you put into the coffin you build for the aftermath of the action.

The pro-life movement has MANY people in it that condone the use of violence. Do a quick search on YouTube, people put videos up there as reactions to the murder of Dr Tiller that will make you sick. Search for op-ed pieces.

The idea of "Im right and everyone else is the enemy" coupled with political power has always resulted in bad things. We already have legislation of things that shouldnt be legislated but are anyways due to religious beliefs and our government is almost entirely closed to anyone with any non-Judeo-Christian beliefs or with no beliefs at all.

The Right cant be as overt as the Taliban because that's not the way this part of the world works, you cant shoot your opponents down in the street. But their attitude, goals, and ruthlessness is mirror image.
That’s one of the prices we pay for living in a relatively free society. People are free to believe what they want, and we have freedom of speech and expression to say so. If it makes people like you afraid and uncomfortable, then I’m sorry, but as long as these beliefs do not become action, then they can’t hurt you. There are too many people in this country who value their freedom of thought and speech for me to sit around and worry about what they could or might do. People in general tend to believe that it would be a great world if just everyone could think and see things the way they do. This is a fantasy and a fairytale, and as long as there are humans, there will be great diversity of belief, thought, and expression. The day that anyone believes that people should not think, feel, and believe the way they want, is the day that freedom is lost. You might want a world like that. I definitely do not.
 

Hoplite

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That’s one of the prices we pay for living in a relatively free society. People are free to believe what they want, and we have freedom of speech and expression to say so. If it makes people like you afraid and uncomfortable, then I’m sorry, but as long as these beliefs do not become action, then they can’t hurt you. There are too many people in this country who value their freedom of thought and speech for me to sit around and worry about what they could or might do. People in general tend to believe that it would be a great world if just everyone could think and see things the way they do. This is a fantasy and a fairytale, and as long as there are humans, there will be great diversity of belief, thought, and expression. The day that anyone believes that people should not think, feel, and believe the way they want, is the day that freedom is lost. You might want a world like that. I definitely do not.
Dont try to drape hyperbole over this. I have no issue with people's beliefs, political or otherwise, and you bloody well know it.

My concern is when people use those beliefs as justification to deny the rights of others and exert control over a society to mold it to what they see as an idea rather than going the democratic way and finding a way to live that benefits everyone, not just your own group.
 

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My concern is when people use those beliefs as justification to deny the rights of others and exert control over a society to mold it to what they see as an idea rather than going the democratic way and finding a way to live that benefits everyone, not just your own group.
And this is not something I see currently happening in this country, nor do I believe it is likely in the future. In a country full of highly ignorant masses, maybe. In a society such as this one? Not likely. People can use their beliefs to "desire" anything at all. This does not mean they can enforce those desires. If I am pro-life because of my religious beliefs, it does you no harm whatsoever. If my beliefs make me inclined to perform violent actions, then yes, it's a detriment, but we have laws to address this. They don't always prevent the occasional nutcase from going off, but they seem to work fairly well. There will never be a "way to live" that benefits everyone, except the preservation of freedom. You and I may have disagreements about what is the right way to live, but our society allows for that in a somewhat peaceful manner.
 

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:) my what a ridiculously premised thread.

1. The Conservative Christian portions of our nation objectively 'care more about the American ' than the general populace (and certainly their left-wing nontheist cultural opposition) in at least two definable metrics off the top of my head: they give a larger percentage of their income to others, and they put their very lives at risk to protect others via service in the military.

2. Conservative Christians tend to be in favor of small-but-balanced governmental approaches. the vast majority of them would prefer to dramatically decrease the power we have invested in Washington. the Taliban - being an autocratic and totalitarian regime - by definition is of rather the opposite bent.

3. Where Christian Conservatives are accused of "taliban-esque" tendencies, it is often merely for the crime of existing as a movement that disagrees with the poster. they have moral beliefs and are willing to impose some of them on the populace!!! OMG!!! oh, wait. that's the entire basis of law; which is nothing more than publicly enforced morality. What posters are really saying when they use emotionally-charged labels such as "the American Taliban" is that they disagree with the Christian Right, and therefore consider them illegitimate fellow players in our representative politcal system.

Now, this difference is key; it is the difference between attacking someone's means, and attacking their motives. It is to say to ones' opposition that they are not a legitimate The Abortion example is instructive, first because it is the example for which everyone reaches in this discussion and secondly because the border is so stark: proponents of legalized abortion offer a variety of arguments, but they generally come down to protecting the rights and liberties of the women involved; well enough, all sides can agree that is a noble motivation. opponents of legalized abortion offer a similar variety, but they generally come down to protecting innocent life; similarly a motivation that all sides can agree is noble. the difference is generally less one of motivation, and more of analysis: if that is a human child in there, then obviously one's right to life outweighs anothers' right to not be inconveneinced (I cannot shoot my neighbor because he mows his lawn at 5a.m. on a Saturday morning); if it is not a human child in there, then obviously the woman's liberty takes precedence (we do not insist that people keep cancerous growths in their body so that they can continue to get larger).

It might be confirmation bias, but it seems to me that the 'pro-abortion' lobby generally does a much poorer job of keeping this basic fact in mind - as is demonstrated by this thread. Few pro-life movement people regularly accuse pro-choicers of wanting to kill babies, but the pro-choice crowd seems to have the accusation that pro-lifers want to restrict womens' liberty as a basic tenet of their argument. hence, we get hyperbolic comparisons to restrictive autocratic totalitarian regimes such as the Taliban. it is unfortunate, as such paranoia keeps the debate more acerbic than necessary.
 

Toothpicvic

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:) my what a ridiculously premised thread.

1. The Conservative Christian portions of our nation objectively 'care more about the American ' than the general populace (and certainly their left-wing nontheist cultural opposition)
No, objectively they care way less than, maybe even Communists (and I hate Communists). They just invoke "god" to exploit stupid people for money, sex and power, like cult leaders do. That's really what they are.


they give a larger percentage of their income to others
No they don't.

, and they put their very lives at risk to protect others via service in the military.
Uh yeah. Just like millions of others who don't identify as "conservative Christians".

2. Conservative Christians tend to be in favor of small-but-balanced governmental approaches. the vast majority of them would prefer to dramatically decrease the power we have invested in Washington.
You're kidding right? They're just agains the current regime (they want to replace it with their own), but they're pro big-govt regulation of people's lives.

3. Where Christian Conservatives are accused of "taliban-esque" tendencies, it is often merely for the crime of existing as a movement that disagrees with the poster.

they have moral beliefs and are willing to impose some of them on the populace!!! OMG!!! oh, wait. that's the entire basis of law; which is nothing more than publicly enforced morality.
Exactly. The problem is that their beliefs are morally ****ed up beyond redemption, therefore they're a threat to our values and way of life.

Now, this difference is key; it is the difference between attacking someone's means, and attacking their motives. It is to say to ones' opposition that they are not a legitimate The Abortion example is instructive, first because it is the example for which everyone reaches in this discussion and secondly because the border is so stark: proponents of legalized abortion offer a variety of arguments, but they generally come down to protecting the rights and liberties of the women involved; well enough, all sides can agree that is a noble motivation. opponents of legalized abortion offer a similar variety, but they generally come down to protecting innocent life; similarly a motivation that all sides can agree is noble. the difference is generally less one of motivation, and more of analysis: if that is a human child in there, then obviously one's right to life outweighs anothers' right to not be inconveneinced (I cannot shoot my neighbor because he mows his lawn at 5a.m. on a Saturday morning); if it is not a human child in there, then obviously the woman's liberty takes precedence (we do not insist that people keep cancerous growths in their body so that they can continue to get larger).

It might be confirmation bias, but it seems to me that the 'pro-abortion' lobby generally does a much poorer job of keeping this basic fact in mind - as is demonstrated by this thread. Few pro-life movement people regularly accuse pro-choicers of wanting to kill babies, but the pro-choice crowd seems to have the accusation that pro-lifers want to restrict womens' liberty as a basic tenet of their argument. hence, we get hyperbolic comparisons to restrictive autocratic totalitarian regimes such as the Taliban. it is unfortunate, as such paranoia keeps the debate more acerbic than necessary.
Early term abortion (before the fetus exists yet) is not killing a baby by scientific definition, so the "woman's right" argument isn't necessary. The issue is that the "killing babies argument" is just factually wrong.

Late term abortion is definitely killing a baby, but most people (other than some very radical pro-choicers) don't believe it should be legal just as a convenience (they believe it should only be legal when medically necessary to save the mother's life).

Just for clarification.
 

Toothpicvic

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And this is not something I see currently happening in this country, nor do I believe it is likely in the future. In a country full of highly ignorant masses, maybe. In a society such as this one? Not likely. People can use their beliefs to "desire" anything at all. This does not mean they can enforce those desires. If I am pro-life because of my religious beliefs, it does you no harm whatsoever. If my beliefs make me inclined to perform violent actions, then yes, it's a detriment, but we have laws to address this. They don't always prevent the occasional nutcase from going off, but they seem to work fairly well. There will never be a "way to live" that benefits everyone, except the preservation of freedom. You and I may have disagreements about what is the right way to live, but our society allows for that in a somewhat peaceful manner.
Weren't you the one saying that all girls who abort a cell smaller than a fly's brain should be charged with murder and put in jail? lol
 
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