• Please read the Announcement concerning missing posts from 10/8/25-10/15/25.
  • This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Chomsky: 9/11 - was there an alternative?

TheDemSocialist

Gradualist
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 13, 2011
Messages
34,951
Reaction score
16,312
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Socialist
Suppression of one's own crimes is virtually ubiquitous among powerful states, at least those that are not defeated.

We are approaching the 10th anniversary of the horrendous atrocities of September 11, 2001, which, it is commonly held, changed the world. On May 1, the presumed mastermind of the crime, Osama bin Laden, was assassinated in Pakistan by a team of elite US commandos, Navy SEALs, after he was captured, unarmed and undefended, in Operation Geronimo.

The senior CIA analyst responsible for tracking Osama bin Laden from 1996, Michael Scheuer, wrote shortly after that “bin Laden has been precise in telling America the reasons he is waging war on us. [He] is out to drastically alter US and Western policies toward the Islamic world”, and largely succeeded: “US forces and policies are completing the radicalisation of the Islamic world, something Osama bin Laden has been trying to do with substantial but incomplete success since the early 1990s. As a result, I think it is fair to conclude that the United States of America remains bin Laden’s only indispensable ally.” And arguably remains so, even after his death.

The first 9/11

In 9-11, I quoted Robert Fisk’s conclusion that the “horrendous crime” of 9/11 was committed with “wickedness and awesome cruelty”, an accurate judgment. It is useful to bear in mind that the crimes could have been even worse. Suppose, for example, that the attack had gone as far as bombing the White House, killing the president, imposing a brutal military dictatorship that killed thousands and tortured tens of thousands while establishing an international terror centre that helped impose similar torture-and-terror states elsewhere and carried out an international assassination campaign; and as an extra fillip, brought in a team of economists - call them “the Kandahar boys” - who quickly drove the economy into one of the worst depressions in its history. That, plainly, would have been a lot worse than 9/11

The first 9/11, unlike the second, did not change the world. It was “nothing of very great consequence”, as Henry Kissinger assured his boss a few days later.

These events of little consequence were not limited to the military coup that destroyed Chilean democracy and set in motion the horror story that followed.

Read more at: http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/09/20119775453842191.html

I
t goes into great detail about other details about a world view of Bin Laden and the attacks, the CIA, precursor events that lead to 9/11 and so on. I thought Chomsky did a great job on this article showing the imperial mentality that followed not only before 9/11 but after. He did a great job of showing the first 9/11 and how the US imperialist plan decades before and now currently the US objectives after have really not changed.

Thoughts?
Comments?
Response?
 
Suppression of one's own crimes is virtually ubiquitous among powerful states, at least those that are not defeated.



Read more at: http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/09/20119775453842191.html

I
t goes into great detail about other details about a world view of Bin Laden and the attacks, the CIA, precursor events that lead to 9/11 and so on. I thought Chomsky did a great job on this article showing the imperial mentality that followed not only before 9/11 but after. He did a great job of showing the first 9/11 and how the US imperialist plan decades before and now currently the US objectives after have really not changed.
Thoughts?
It's Chomsky
Comments?
It's Aljeezera.
Response?
It's Chomsky, in Aljeezera babbling.
 
Last edited:
It's Chomsky
Your right it is Chomsky.


It's Aljeezera.
Your right it is Aljeezera

It's Chomsky, in Aljeezera babbling.
Your right again its Chomsky and it is Aljeezera!!!
Good job!!!

Now try to make a semi intellectual response trying to refute or agree with or actual reasoning behind anything...
 
It's Chomsky

It's Aljeezera.

It's Chomsky, in Aljeezera babbling.

I find that Al-Jazeera does a much better job and is far more insightful than any American media outlet. Globally, the only media empire that can even rival them is the BBC.
 
Thoughts?
Comments?
Response?

My thoughts are that The fundamentalist left is just as mind-numbingly conformist, incredibly predictable and lacking in original thought as the fundie right.
 
I love the convenient history that writes that everything we've done after 9/11 played into Bin Laden's hands. That it all went exactly as scripted. Suppose we would have done nothing. Just maintained the status quo. Suppose we would have pulled all troops out of the Mideast and while we were at it abandoned Israel. Then the world would have been a better place I suppose. Obama and radical Islam probably would have retired to some Mideast Oasis and put their feet up. The Afghan and Iran wars changed the course of history and I am not going to say all for the better. But we can't say how much better off we would be at this point if we opted not to engage in those conflicts.
 
I love the convenient history that writes that everything we've done after 9/11 played into Bin Laden's hands. That it all went exactly as scripted. Suppose we would have done nothing. Just maintained the status quo. Suppose we would have pulled all troops out of the Mideast and while we were at it abandoned Israel. Then the world would have been a better place I suppose. Obama and radical Islam probably would have retired to some Mideast Oasis and put their feet up. The Afghan and Iran wars changed the course of history and I am not going to say all for the better. But we can't say how much better off we would be at this point if we opted not to engage in those conflicts.

Ha, ha. Note that I wrote Obama instead of Osama in my post. Oops.
 
I love the convenient history that writes that everything we've done after 9/11 played into Bin Laden's hands.
Well did it not fall into Bin Ladens hands?

That it all went exactly as scripted. Suppose we would have done nothing. Just maintained the status quo.
Ok......

Suppose we would have pulled all troops out of the Mideast and while we were at it abandoned Israel.
You think of we pulled all of the troops out of Israel, Israel would just get invaded in a heart beat?
 
From your article,

"US forces and policies are completing the radicalisation of the Islamic world, something Osama bin Laden has been trying to do with substantial but incomplete success since the early 1990s. As a result, I think it is fair to conclude that the United States of America remains bin Laden’s only indispensable ally.” And arguably remains so, even after his death".

This has been the defining (and contentious) narrative surrounding the conflict, thus far. Whether US policy has exaggerated, prolonged or caused the events surrounding 9/11. I firmly believe OBL was in no doubt as to the response of the US. In his misguided belief he felt many Muslim countries would rise up and join his struggle [Jihad]. That this never happened, [on a scale he hoped] has left the extremist ideology very much on the fringe.
The very fact that overt combat missions has an end in sight will alleviate and diminish the premise that US and coalition action will perpetuate reactionary forces further. The end of combat operations in Afghanistan cannot come soon enough. With the Arab spring very much in motion, one can only hope a version of 'democracy' that may look dissimilar to ours prevails in the wider region, this may have more of a defining influence than the Iraq/Afghan conflicts as to what shape the region forms.

Paul
 
Last edited:
My thoughts are that The fundamentalist left is just as mind-numbingly conformist, incredibly predictable and lacking in original thought as the fundie right.

You gleaned all that from the article? No wait, it was pulled from 'the drawer marked regurgitated slogans for constant use'....

Paul
 
Is there a bigger joke in the world than Noam Chomsky? Chomsky is the guy who saw no difference between the allies in World War II and Nazi Germany and thought we shouldn't have fought that war. That tells you all you need to know about Chomsky.

PS Do you suppose Bin Laden scripted the Special Forces raid on his Pakistan summer home that blew his head off?
 
Last edited:
I find that Al-Jazeera does a much better job and is far more insightful than any American media outlet. Globally, the only media empire that can even rival them is the BBC.

Well, if anti-American propaganda is your criteria for what constitutes 'a better job', then I can see your point of view.
 
You gleaned all that from the article? No wait, it was pulled from 'the drawer marked regurgitated slogans for constant use'....

Paul

I only have to look as far as the posting patterns of those here who self identify as "socialist".


...... as well as some similarly inclined Brits who misidentify themselves as "centrist".
 
Is there a bigger joke in the world than Noam Chomsky? Chomsky is the guy who saw no difference between the allies in World War II and Nazi Germany and thought we shouldn't have fought that war. That tells you all you need to know about Chomsky.

PS Do you suppose Bin Laden scripted the Special Forces raid on his Pakistan summer home that blew his head off?

What I find amazing is the way he simply takes all the common themes so characteristic of disgruntled Islamist propagandists, dresses them up in florid language, and repackages them as his own.

Even more amazing is the way all the doctrinaire, lockstep extreme leftists think he is brilliant for doing so.
 
Well, if anti-American propaganda is your criteria for what constitutes 'a better job', then I can see your point of view.

:roll:
Al-Jazeera doesn't public random anti-American hate (at least not that I've seen). It is fairly critical of US foreign policy, but that's because it's written from an Arab perspective. And the Arab world has good reason to dislike US foreign policy and plenty of legitimate grievances.
 
Is there a bigger joke in the world than Noam Chomsky? Chomsky is the guy who saw no difference between the allies in World War II and Nazi Germany and thought we shouldn't have fought that war. That tells you all you need to know about Chomsky.

PS Do you suppose Bin Laden scripted the Special Forces raid on his Pakistan summer home that blew his head off?

Whete did he say this again. Serious, as I've heard some things from him over the years thst sounded lhdicrous but turned out to be out of context.

That's the problem with Chomsky. You can read a two page direct quote and its STILL out of context because he always goes ALL THE WAY AROUND the barn to get to the point. So id be interested where you got this.

My uverse tv bix died so we're on hulu. Watched "The Corporation" last night. Seen it before, thought it was a film I haven't seen that looked more documentary in nature that I cant remember the name of.

Got "Manufacturing Consent" cued up for when my wife gets out of the shower.

I'd forgotten why the right hates him sooo much.

"Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain..."
 
:roll:
Al-Jazeera doesn't public random anti-American hate (at least not that I've seen). It is fairly critical of US foreign policy, but that's because it's written from an Arab perspective. And the Arab world has good reason to dislike US foreign policy and plenty of legitimate grievances.

The 'Arab world' is frankly a place nobody would give a damn about if they didn't have oil. Their 'legitimate' lists of grievances all stem from a deep seated hatred of Israel, continually fomented by really nasty leaders who learned early on that if you give the uneducated street masses an outside force to blame for their misery, they're less likely to look inward. Al Jazeera merely serves as a mouthpiece for all of that.
 
That's a ****ing ignorant view of the world. Let's look at it one piece at a time:

The 'Arab world' is frankly a place nobody would give a damn about if they didn't have oil.

What's your point? I think a lot of Arabs would PREFER it if the United States and other nations stopped "giving a damn about them" (i.e. liberating the crap out of them).

Their 'legitimate' lists of grievances all stem from a deep seated hatred of Israel,

No, many Arabs dislike Israel for the same reason they dislike the United States: Because they perceive both to be belligerent powers occupying Arab lands, and displaying reckless disregard for civilian lives. And to a large extent they're right...in both cases.

continually fomented by really nasty leaders who learned early on that if you give the uneducated street masses an outside force to blame for their misery, they're less likely to look inward.

People - even if they have brown skin and long beards - aren't quite THAT stupid and easily manipulated. Maybe that can work for a few years, but this has been going on for DECADES. Ask yourself this: Why do those really nasty leaders who blame Israel and the US do so? Why not blame Turkey or Iran or the Kurds? Because criticisms of Israel and the United States RESONATE more with the Arab public, and for good reason. After decades of belligerent and arrogant foreign policy, is it really any shock that the vast majority of Arabs consider Israel and the US to be the #1 and #2 threats to their countries, according to a recent Pew poll? Only 10% cited Iran.

Al Jazeera merely serves as a mouthpiece for all of that.

I really doubt you've even looked at al-Jazeera. But oh noes, it's produced by sand people and it's critical of the United States! It must therefore automatically be illegitimate propaganda. :roll:
 
Last edited:
that the vast majority of Arabs consider Israel........to be the #1 .....threat to their countries:

In much the same way that a couple of black folk are a threat to a room full of K.K.K.

Yesindeeddy! It must be the one who is a threat to the thousand instead of the other way around. :roll:
 
In much the same way that a couple of black folk are a threat to a room full of K.K.K.

Yesindeeddy! It must be the one who is a threat to the thousand instead of the other way around. :roll:

Well, when the one has almost full access to the US arsenal, the thousand might feel justifiably threatened.
 
That's a ****ing ignorant view of the world. Let's look at it one piece at a time:

Actually, his view is backed by evidence. If one excludes oil, the Arab world could be sucked into a black hole and the world wouldn't notice.


GDP [Gross Domestic Product] in all Arab countries combined stood at $531.2 billion in 1999, less than that of a single middle-size European country, Spain, ($595.5 billion).

Science and technology output is quantifiable and measurable in terms of the number of scientific papers per unit of population. The average output of the Arab world per million inhabitants is roughly 2 per cent of that of an industrialized country. While Arab scientific output more than doubled from 11 papers per million in 1985 to 26 papers per million in 1995, China's output increased eleven-fold from one paper per million inhabitants in 1981 to 11 papers per million in 1995. The Republic of Korea increased its output from 6 to 144 papers per million inhabitants over the same period. India's output, by contrast, barely changed over the period 1981-1995: its output increased from 17 publications per million inhabitants in 1981 to 19 per million in 1995.

The figures for translated books are discouraging. The Arab world translates about 330 books annually, one fifth of the number that Greece translates.

Growth in Arab countries has been seriously hampered by low and declining labor productivity. Low productivity is a major challenge for the region. According to World Bank data, GNP per worker in all Arab countries combined was less than half that of two comparator developing countries: Argentina and the Republic of Korea.​


What's your point? I think a lot of Arabs would PREFER it if the United States and other nations stopped "giving a damn about them" (i.e. liberating the crap out of them).

Actually, no. I've spent a few years in a number of countries throughout the region as part of my work. I think that most observers would share this view - the region has a HUGE chip on their shoulder with regards to demanding respect. They want to be seen as equal but they don't want to work in order to earn that respect, unlike the case of the Far East. Even in the oil-rich countries, you see this dynamic play out - citizens want to work for government and not for private enterprise because a government job commands respect and the people who work in private enterprise are usually foreign workers.

For the West to ignore the MENA countries would be a devastating blow to national egos. I WOULD LOVE FOR THE WEST TO IGNORE THE REGION, but no one listens to me.

No, many Arabs dislike Israel for the same reason they dislike the United States: Because they perceive both to be belligerent powers occupying Arab lands, and displaying reckless disregard for civilian lives. And to a large extent they're right...in both cases.

So many false premises embedded in such a short sentence.
 
Suppression of one's own crimes is virtually ubiquitous among powerful states, at least those that are not defeated.



Read more at: Chomsky: 9/11 - was there an alternative? - Opinion - Al Jazeera Englisht goes into great detail about other details about a world view of Bin Laden and the attacks, the CIA, precursor events that lead to 9/11 and so on. I thought Chomsky did a great job on this article showing the imperial mentality that followed not only before 9/11 but after. He did a great job of showing the first 9/11 and how the US imperialist plan decades before and now currently the US objectives after have really not changed.


Thank you for your having linked us to the Aljazeera story, TheDemSocialist. How do you do?

*****

Yes, the indirect yet very real connection between Chile's "911" and America's "911" is, to me, as striking as it is obvious. The laissez-faire-capitalist-inspired and US government-sponsored military coup (09.11.'73) that saw to the assassination of the democratically elected President Salvador was the initial salvo in a desperate, violent and worldwide grab for raw materials and markets; one that has now taken hold of Iraq. (So too did the September 11, 1973 Chilean coup see to the overthrow of Allende's Popular Unity government and to the systematic murders of several thousand Chileans, including the wonderful singer-songwriter Victor Jara, and the Nobel Laureate poet Pablo Neruda, not to mention two Americans; Charles Horman, and Frank Teruggi.)

TheDemSocialist quoted Noam Chomsky as having written: "The senior CIA analyst responsible for tracking Osama bin Laden since 1996, Michael Schruer, wrote shortly after that [the killing of bin Laden] 'bin laden [had] been precise in telling America the reasons he is waging war on us. [He was] out to drastically alter US and Western policies toward the Islamic world,' and largely succeeded; 'US forces and policies are completing the radicalization of the Islamic world, something Osama bin Laden [had] been trying to do with substantial but incomplete success since the early 1990s."

While I agree that US government policy is "completing the radicalization of the Islamic world," I do not agree that bin Laden and his followers "largely succeeded" in "drastically alter[ing] US and Western policies toward the Islamic world."
Consider that, in or around 2004, George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld and others began to tell the world of the US government's plan to turn much, if not all, of the Islamic world into the world's next free trade zone by way of yet more NAFTA-like legislation ("IFTA," if you will). And, although the US government has yet to bother itself with such legislation, the sale of Iraq to American and other Western capitalists has been in full swing since 2004.
Indeed, all of Iraq's publicly-owned industries; its electrical-generating system, its telecommunication system, its educational system, its roads, airports, jails, prisons, water, waterways and anything else that can be turned into a commodity and then sold for profit has been or is in the process of being sold to the likes of Haliburton and its subsidiary Kellogg-Brown and Root, Bechtel, Dyncorp, MCI WorldCom, Skylink Air...USA, Wackenhut, the Perini Corporation, and many others. Moreover, all of this began to unfold even before the establishment of Iraq's coalition government, which is to say without the consent of the Iraqi people. (This is not to suggest that Iraq's coalition government has ever represented the Iraqi people, for it simply has not.)

The auctioning off of Iraq has been a dream come true for the late Milton Friedman and his disciples, such as Donald Rumsfeld; a dream that began to take root in Chile on September 11, 1973, and which eventually spread to Argentina, Bolivia, Russia, Iraq and even New Orleans, Louisiana.

Consider, too, that the US government has constructed no fewer than thirteen very large, very permanent military bases within Iraq since 2003. These are military bases that, in conjunction with the IDF (Israeli Defense Forces) as well as with US bases within still other middle-eastern countries, could and likely will be used to deter any and all Islamic nations who may choose to resist the development of an Islamic "free trade" zone.

Therefore, with all respect due Noam Chomsky, I am not of the belief that Osama bin Laden altered US government policy and that of other Western powers whatsoever. In fact, it is my belief, though I hope to be mistaken, that the deleterious and thus dangerous policies of the US and other Western nations toward the Islamic World is growing more resolute with each passing day. After all, they really don't have much of a choice.
With capitalism now on its final stage - its global stage, the rush to acquire markets, raw materials and inexpensive/easily-exploitable labor power is like never before. It is the reason why globalized capital has begun to abandon the practice of asking[B/] non-compliant governments for their nation's natural riches because it knows the answer to be - No. So it has begun to simply take what it wants in the wake of military shock and awe "battles" from Chile to Iraq and beyond.


Good evening.
Persevere.
Guy
 
Back
Top Bottom