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China says its military 'drove away' US warship

ouch

ouch

Air Muscle
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Our Navy's 7th Fleet stated that they were in accordance with international law so take that China. Just more friction added to the tensions already simmering is all.



MSN

www.msn.com

The PLA spokesperson told the news outlet that Chinese forces warned the U.S. ship and drove them away from the Paracel Islands, which the PLA claimed are part of China's "inherent territory," according to the AP.



Blinken has warned China that if it followed through on threats to target Philippine aircraft or vessels, it "would invoke U.S. mutual defense commitments."

The Biden administration on Sunday gave their full support for the 2016 tribunal ruling that rejected China's territorial claims in the South China Sea, the AP noted.
 
ouch said:
Our Navy's 7th Fleet stated that they were in accordance with international law so take that China. Just more friction added to the tensions already simmering is all.



MSN

www.msn.com

The PLA spokesperson told the news outlet that Chinese forces warned the U.S. ship and drove them away from the Paracel Islands, which the PLA claimed are part of China's "inherent territory," according to the AP.



Blinken has warned China that if it followed through on threats to target Philippine aircraft or vessels, it "would invoke U.S. mutual defense commitments."

The Biden administration on Sunday gave their full support for the 2016 tribunal ruling that rejected China's territorial claims in the South China Sea, the AP noted.
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The unfortunate results of granting an adversarial nation so much power over us by offshoring so much of our domestic manufacturing to them.
 
Felis Leo said:
The unfortunate results of granting an adversarial nation so much power over us by offshoring so much of our domestic manufacturing to them.
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Most people care more about saving a few dollars than in saving the jobs of others in their own country.

This is why we were once the leader in TV sets, and now not a single one is made here. Our industrial output is a fraction of what it was before, yet they still scream about how evil they are. They want more regulations, more taxes, and yet also whine when they move production off shore, as it is the only way to remain competitive.
 
Felis Leo said:
The unfortunate results of granting an adversarial nation so much power over us by offshoring so much of our domestic manufacturing to them.
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That is largely a myth anyway.
 
Felis Leo said:
I welcome your explication, Dayton3.
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The actual value of U.S. manufactured goods is about the same as it was decades ago.

The difference is in the number of employees who work in manufacturing as it has been largely automated much the way agriculture was.
 
Dayton3 said:
The actual value of U.S. manufactured goods is about the same as it was decades ago.

The difference is in the number of employees who work in manufacturing as it has been largely automated much the way agriculture was.
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Not really, and only if you completely ignore inflation.

Tell me, how many TV sets are made in the US? How many computer motherboards? Cell Phones? Cargo ships? Pairs of Levi jeans? Shoes? Socks? Towels?

The only way I can see that as even close to accurate, is if inflation is completely ignored, because huge segments of our industrial production from even 20 years ago is now gone.

And it is not even "automation", they literally are gone. Not a single US TV manufacturer remains, just a few as brand names of foreign companies that have not been made in the US for decades. Levi moved all of their production overseas over 30 years ago, only keeping what is basically "custom order" in the US (barely). Computers may be assembled here, but once again the motherboards and most other major parts moved overseas decades ago.

There is another thread here where I talked about this very thing recently. Over 54 million tons of cargo vessels launched in 2020, only 74,000 tons made in the US.

And only a fraction of agriculture can really be automated. Most fruit must still be picked by hand, as do many other crops that drop all year long.

Interesting however that you stated "value". But I bet that is not factoring in inflation at all. SO the value has remained, but the amount has sharply decreased.

Now mind you, I am not a real big fan of Unions.



But commercials like this were a staple on TV for decades.

But I bet most do not even know that the The International Ladies Garment Workers Union was dissolved over 25 years ago in 1995. By that time, Levi Strauss and a great many companies had already moved their production overseas, simply to try and stay competitive with foreign companies.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
No, Dayton is correct. Automation has been the single biggest killers of jobs, not trade or overseas labor.

www.nytimes.com

The Long-Term Jobs Killer Is Not China. It’s Automation. (Published 2016)

“Everything we did, you could program a robot to do it.”
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
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Automation can be regulated too.

But that cannot be correct. Because even an automated factory in the US would hire some people in the United States, whereas a factory in China hires zero people in the United States.

Even in this automation is largely overstated as a force, very few tasks humans do can actually be practically automated. This is why self checkout is still not the standard 30 years after it was invented. And why self driving cars have “five years away” for almost 30 years now.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
No, Dayton is correct. Automation has been the single biggest killers of jobs, not trade or overseas labor.

www.nytimes.com

The Long-Term Jobs Killer Is Not China. It’s Automation. (Published 2016)

“Everything we did, you could program a robot to do it.”
www.nytimes.com www.nytimes.com
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I might even comment on that, if it was not subscription only so I can not even read it.

But let me ask once again how many ships are made in the US? Televisions? Textiles? Shoes?

I am not talking about "killer of jobs", but killers of domestic production. Sorry, but seems you slid the argument in another direction. And I can not even verify that, as I am not even a subscriber to your reference.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
Automation can be regulated too.

But that cannot be correct. Because even an automated factory in the US would hire some people in the United States, whereas a factory in China hires zero people in the United States.
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Automation currently does not generate enough jobs to make up for the losses, and often the first group of workers hit are unable to adapt.

The US steel industry shed 75% of its workforce, but shipsments remained steady because machinery was able to make good on the loss of manpower.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
Automation currently does not generate enough jobs to make up for the losses, and often the first group of workers hit are unable to adapt.

The US steel industry shed 75% of its workforce, but shipsments remained steady because machinery was able to make good on the loss of manpower.
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In in increasing market shipments should’ve skyrocketed and not remained steady. But this goes in to another topic which is the government should be willing to regulate certain forms of automation and confiscate the wealth of CEOs who make money off of job reductions,

But that aside, it is not true that automation caused more job losses then off shoring because a factory that requires half as many workers still requires workers. If the factory is in China we get zero workers. Your leftist non-sense argument cannot get around that basic fact. The TV factory employing 50 Americans employs 50 Americans, whether it could’ve employed 150 in the past doesn’t matter if the factory is in China
 
Oozlefinch said:
I might even comment on that, if it was not subscription only so I can not even read it.
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I don't have a subscription and can read it just fine.

I am not talking about "killer of jobs", but killers of domestic production.
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Domestic manufacturing production has been consistently growing for some time now, even adjusted for inflation.

manufacturing.PNG
 
EMNofSeattle said:
But that aside, it is not true that automation caused more job losses then off shoring because a factory that requires half as many workers still requires workers. If the factory is in China we get zero workers.
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I'm sorry, but the data does not support that conclusion.
 
Jredbaron96 said:
I'm sorry, but the data does not support that conclusion.
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There is no data that can disprove my argument, a factory in China cannot employ any American resident workers living in America. So putting it in China costs American jobs. There is no way this cannot be true.

It doesn’t shock me though that you love China more then America, to the point where you’re hilariously claiming no American manufacturing jobs have been lost to off shoring because of automation, and you have no counter to the fact that the amount of automated equipment in a factory doesn’t matter when it’s not located in the US.
 
EMNofSeattle said:
There is no data that can disprove my argument, a factory in China cannot employ any American resident workers living in America. So putting it in China costs American jobs. There is no way this cannot be true.
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Your argument that China has been the principal reason American jobs have declined is demonstrably false.

EMNofSeattle said:
It doesn’t shock me though that you love China more then America,
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Lmao, already out of talking points? **** dude this has got to be a record. You're so utterly incapable of coming up with a good argument that's all you have?

EMNofSeattle said:
to the point where you’re hilariously claiming no American manufacturing jobs have been lost to off shoring because of automation,
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Jesus **** dude, maybe you should read before you post, because in my very first post I clearly stated "Automation has been the single biggest killers of jobs, not trade or overseas labor."

That's funny, I didn't say "No jobs have been lost to China". Maybe instead of just shitting out the first argument that pops into your head you should try reading first so you don't embarrass yourself.
 
Dayton3 said:
The actual value of U.S. manufactured goods is about the same as it was decades ago.

The difference is in the number of employees who work in manufacturing as it has been largely automated much the way agriculture was.
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Adjusted for inflation?

Citation?
 
Jredbaron96 said:
Your argument that China has been the principal reason American jobs have declined is demonstrably false.
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no, it’s not.
For you to prove that you would have to be able to know how many jobs would be here if we engaged in protectionism sufficient to practically mandate factories stay in America.

Since most of the industries that formerly existed here are not presently here you cannot establish either number.

So this is an argument you are making to absolve the left of outsourcing manufacturing.
 
TheDoctorWasIn said:
We don't live in a manufacturing economy anymore.
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And that’s the problem, that should change. And the environmentalists and immigration and free trade advocates should be made to pay for it
 
Jredbaron96 said:
Your argument that China has been the principal reason American jobs have declined is demonstrably false.



Lmao, already out of talking points? **** dude this has got to be a record. You're so utterly incapable of coming up with a good argument that's all you have?



Jesus **** dude, maybe you should read before you post, because in my very first post I clearly stated "Automation has been the single biggest killers of jobs, not trade or overseas labor."

That's funny, I didn't say "No jobs have been lost to China". Maybe instead of just shitting out the first argument that pops into your head you should try reading first so you don't embarrass yourself.
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Market competition (china) has forced reductions in operating costs, and since labor is the primary operating cost in manufacturing, its forced 1 of 2 things...wage freezing (which is combated by fair labor standards act and minimum wage), and automation.

See, robots are the only things willing to work for as cheap as armies of poor, subjugated Chinese workers...who hail from a culture that would be any current CEOs wet dream. "Ask not what your company can do for you...but what you can do for your company!"
 
Oozlefinch said:
Most people care more about saving a few dollars than in saving the jobs of others in their own country.

This is why we were once the leader in TV sets, and now not a single one is made here. Our industrial output is a fraction of what it was before, yet they still scream about how evil they are. They want more regulations, more taxes, and yet also whine when they move production off shore, as it is the only way to remain competitive.
Click to expand...
No amount of deregulation save allowing corporations to dump pollutants wholesale and blot out the sun with smog as they have in China, and allowing workers to be paid third world wages is going to allow America to compete with the sheer absence of regulations and labour law; obviously turning our industrial corridors into hellish cesspools of heavy industrial pollution staffed by people working for unlivable wages driven to suicide as they have been in China is not a price worth paying.

Further, races to the bottom are far from the only way to remain competitive between automation and tariffs against those countries that are externalizing all their costs of production on their environment and underpaid labour.
 
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