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Che Guevara: Hero or thug?


I don't support this type of communism, as I am a democratic socialist. I agree with you that it was tyranical and evil. This was not what Che was fighting for. You know nothing about Che until you actually read about the rest of his life, not just his oversseeing of La Cabana. You are a ignorant fool if you are stupid enough to base him on something he was forced to do. You don't understand that CHe lived in the poverty. He witnessed little children die because they're parents couldn't afford to get medical treatment in this greedy capitalist system. He fought solely for the poor and the less fortunate. For prosperity, peace and justice. You are a complete moron if you speak about someone you know nothing about.
 
Che said:
I don't support this type of communism, as I am a democratic socialist.

Then use a democratic socialist avatar, not a murderous punk.

I agree with you that it was tyranical and evil. This was not what Che was fighting for. You know nothing about Che until you actually read about the rest of his life, not just his oversseeing of La Cabana.

Communists are what communists DO, not what you say they are. The same people like you who complain about islamofascist savages being held in prison in Cuba wear T-shirts with the face of the person who blew the brains out of "enemies of the people" in Cuba in post-revolution blood vengence.

You are a ignorant fool if you are stupid enough to base him on something he was forced to do
.

Whaaattttt?????? Forced to do? He was on the winning side, and he was forced to murder???

You don't understand that CHe lived in the poverty.

I grew up in poverty, but I never blew anyone's brains out.


I know more about history, particularly the Communist Holocaust, than you would if you lived to be a century. Castro and his henchmen CERTAINLY didn't bring either prosperity OR peace OR justice anywhere they went, but rather death and destruction. Castro asked Krushchev for a first nuclear strike against the U.S. during the cuban missile crisis, a fact I'm sure you haven't learned in your government school brainwashing classes. If Krushchev didn't have a lot more sense than the banana republic punk-with-a-gun castroites, you probably wouldn't even BE HERE to treat everyone to your pathetic, sophomoric dribble.
 


it is true, that all faithful attempts at communist revolutions turn into totalitarian revolutions. Its certainly not what marx wanted or what most communist instigators want in the beginning.

communism itself was just another economic model where the assumption was that people would try to take other's welfare into account almost as equally as their own. This model obviosuly doesn't work, humans are selfish and competitive. However, It was not an attempt by Marx to destroy the world...That is obvious government brainwashing.

Take Kerala, it is one of the few societies where a semi-communist form (formally known as Democratic Socialism) works beautifully. Many social scientists attribute this to the fact that people there, are brought up in a society where the welfare of the people is cultivated. Of course this means that there is gonna be less economic development. (less competition). however, ironically, there is high-literacy (highest in India), much religious tolerance (hindus, one of the oldest jewish communities in Asia, largest christian population in india, muslims, and buddhists), high life expectancy, very little poverty, high human rights standards, and the people for the most part are self-reliant.

its this type of society that people like che wanted to initially acheive. Whether extrenuating circumstances pushed him in the wrong direction, Che's initial goals were still for the good of the people, and most of his life was based on these initial goals.
 
alphamale said:
Then use a democratic socialist avatar, not a murderous punk.

He wasn't a murderous punk. He was an advocate of democratic socialism and a revolutionary who fought against a US backed dictatorship that killed thousands. Eisenhower did the exact same things when he signed papers to kill army defectors during WWII, yet you don't call him a murdeous tratior




He never actually killed the rapists, gang members, defectors, criminals, and murderers, he merely oversaw the execution of them. Of course some innocent were killed as they are in every revoltution and every legal system.




Whaaattttt?????? Forced to do? He was on the winning side, and he was forced to murder???

It was his duty. Castro put him there. He was in charge of a prison that held, above all, criminals. He didn't blow people's brains out like conservofascists claim.






Did I say anywhere that I am an advocate of soviet communism, or even the totalitarian cuba? No, I didn't because I'm not. I simply believe that Che's goals were noble and just what ended up happening is the reason why he left Cuba, and why I despise Castro.

BTW Please stop making assumptions about me, when you nothing about me. Please go back into your flagdraped, redneck trailer and stop bugging me with this over exagerated conspiracy.
 
 
What I don't understand; is why so many on the left idolise Che? If you wanted an example of a good domacratic socialist model, then you need look no further than Sweden. But I suppose Swedish Social Democrats, don't come across as glamorously as Che.
 

People idolize him because he was just one guy looking for equality and what is simpler then that?
 
Davo said:
People idolize him because he was just one guy looking for equality and what is simpler then that?


Bullshit he was one guy responsible for overseeing the Cuban death camps and in collaboration with Castro is responsible for the ruin of the island of Cuba.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Bullshit he was one guy responsible for overseeing the Cuban death camps and in collaboration with Castro is responsible for the ruin of the island of Cuba.

Do you have any proof he was "responsible" for overseeing the death camps? Other then your word? Right...the ruin of the island...because...Batista was such a good guy...he only tortured and killed thousands of teenage boys(anybody who was old enough to join the 26th of July movement) and young men. Want to ask for proof on that one? One of my dad's uncles was tortured to death in Olguin. You know what they did? they'd stick wires to your testicles and at the same time put metal pins in your nails. After that if you were still alive they'd castrate you and give you water shock treatments for 2-3 days. While all of this was going on you didnt get any food. Finally if you didnt give away information ( most of them didnt know anything about the 26th of July movement cause they were just regular highschool-college kids ) they were shot in the back of the head and burried in the outskirts of Havana. Where the Miramar district is now. All of this torture was done by a U.S. backed goverment. Do you agree with what was done to these innocent kids (and most of them I`d say 90% of them were) by a U.S. backed goverment? If you do then you agree with torture and injustice. Isnt that what the U.S. is fighting against?
 
Davo said:
Do you have any proof he was "responsible" for overseeing the death camps?

Oh why yes:


AND there's much much more.
 
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Che, can you give us examples of communist leaders who weren't absolute dictators?
 
Wasn't he like... a guerrilla fighter. What a great example to follow. Don't guerrillas kill people? Why would anyone follow someone who kills outright to get their gov't style. Can someone enlighten me on everything about Mr. Guevara?
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
Oh why yes:



AND there's much much more.

Do you honestly think cuban dissidents have much to say about Cuba? Thats like asking Palestinians about what they think of the Israelis. It's never going to be "They're ok guys". You're foolish for believing what the Cuban-American league says. It's like asking Hamas what they think of Israel. Most of what Cuban dissidents say is nothing more then exagerated fiction. Think of it as....what the prisoners in Gitmo will say after they're released.

The first words to come out of their mouths will be "We were tortured."
 

Cuban dissedents? You mean me? I'm foolish? You're not catching it partner, I have a personal vendetta against Che and those that follow him now will taste my steal the same!!! Nex ut tyrannus y sic semper tyrannus, licentia vel nex!!! Viva alpha 66!!!
 

It's based on nothing other than a very famous "cool-looking" photo of him, added to the brainwashing and historical ignorance of many mush-heads churned out of the infamous american government school system.
 

You're a cuban dissedent? Are you like one of the many worms who talks "smack" about Cuba but a year before you left were right at the Plaza of Revolution chanting "long live Fidel"? Your steal?....You mean steel right? Or are you one more of the Miami-born cubans that has never been there yet talks about the situation in Cuba like they live in Cayo Hueso? Alpha 66....arent they responsible for the murder of 24 Cuban athletes? You tell me...how is a chickenshit terrorist organisation like Alpha 66...who got it's *** kicked in the Bay of Pigs...any worse then the Taliban?
 
Re: CHe Guevara: Hero or thug?

I honestly don't know much about him. But if whites hate him and people of color love him, obviously he's a hero.
 
vibeeleven said:
Che, can you give us examples of communist leaders who weren't absolute dictators?

I could- I'll give you examples of ones anyone should know. Lets' see-Marx, Engels, Lenin, Trotsky, Minh. Ones that aren't so famous-Kautsky, Leibknicht, Luxemburg, Kamenev, etc. etc.

But then again, it would have to do of what you think are communists from your perspective, some people think any dictatorship is communist, some think dictatorship and communism are opposites. Much of it has to do with perspectives. I personally don't see Stalin, Mao, Kim, etc. etc. as commies or "good" ones.
 
Comrade Brian said:
I could- I'll give you examples of ones anyone should know. Lets' see-Marx, Engels, Lenin, Trotsky, Minh. Ones that aren't so famous-Kautsky, Leibknicht, Luxemburg, Kamenev, etc. etc.

Uhh.. None of these guys fall under the true communism or marxism. 'cept Marx and Engels of course. Lenin was a fool because he set up the Dictatorship of the Protaleriat. I do agree with most of the stuff he says but not the DOP. Trotsky was a Leninist puppet. Frankly there is little difference b/t the two. Minh was a dictator, right? I know nothing about the rest but I will say that true communism has never exsisted. The only "Communism" that has exsisted are "State Capitalism" and DOPs, stepping stones to true communism.


Basically these are the guys that ****ed communism up and helped make America think it is a theory from hell.
 
Lenin was a fool because he set up the Dictatorship of the Protaleriat. I do agree with most of the stuff he says but not the DOP.

Strange, "the Dictatorship of the Proletariat" was an idea originating with Marx. This has also been with much controversy particularily between with the anarchist types, because anarchists are often idealistic. But anyways this notion "dictatorship" has often been used as a point to argue against Marxists, etc. but most who think like that misunderstand the words, "proletariat" is plural for "proletarian", therefore that implies the proletariat as a whole dictates. Also it was later cleared up by naming it "the Democratic Dictatorship of the Proletariat". Any such state must have many democratic institutions more than seen in much of today.
-Marx/Engels
Critique of the Gotha Programme
http://marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1875/gotha/index.htm

-Rosa Luxemburg
The Russian Revolution
http://marxists.org/archive/luxemburg/1918/russian-revolution/index.htm

-V.I. Lenin
The State and Revolution
http://marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/index.htm
Minh was a dictator, right?
That would not probably be a correct term.
I will say that true communism has never exsisted.
What is this "'true' communism"? But anyways, communism has existed before in some the earliest human societies, but those of course, have not been through the feudal and industrial societies that have been experienced today.
I know nothing about the rest
Kautsky was probably THE leading Marxist after Engel's death until about WWI, one of the leaders, and leading theoreticians of the Second International. Helped create German Social-Democracy, and was later sort of ousted for his support of WWI, which caused a large break in the socialists because many supported their own countries, and others declared it nothing more than an "imperialist war".
Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Leibknecht were the two main leaders of the Sparacus League in Germany, known for supports and criticisms of the Bolsheviks, in certain parts. Later executed by the German military for their part in a Berlin worker revolt in January 1919.
Kamenev worked close with Lenin and Trotsky in the Bolshevik govt. Kamenev is probably most known for being executed along with many other Bolshevik leaders in 1936 for not being insupport of Stalin.
 

I am by no means a anarcho-Communist or a lib-communist or an Anarcho-syndicalist because these ideas are too idealistic too work. I like to consider myself a Reform leninist because classic leninism is what set the mold for Stalinism and the USSR. some form of the vangaurd is good but the DOP is what gives communism the common mis conception of it being a tyranical system. I like the idea of "the Democratic dictatorship of the protaleriat" but many leninists I've spoken to never mentioned it.
 
I am by no means a anarcho-Communist or a lib-communist or an Anarcho-syndicalist because these ideas are too idealistic too work
It is good that you do realise that.
I like to consider myself a Reform leninist because classic leninism is what set the mold for Stalinism and the USSR
I would be lying if I claimed that Leninism didn't give way towards Stalinism, but then again since Marxism gave way to Leninism, so Marxism has too given way to Stalinism. But then again Stalinism has contradictions with both Leninism and Marxism, particularily with their "worshipping" of Lenin and Stalin, nationalism, statism, extravagant bureaucracy, etc. etc.
I like the idea of "the Democratic dictatorship of the protaleriat" but many leninists I've spoken to never mentioned it.
I believe the term was made by Trotsky to criticise Stalin that the "dictatorship of the proletariat" must have democratic institutions to be genuine.
 
I'm glad he's dead and if he wasn't I'd put a bullet in his head myself fuc/k Guevara may he rot in hell. Viva alpha 66!!!!

You are a terrorist sympatizer. Alpha 66 is a terrorist organization.
 
and in collaboration with Castro is responsible for the ruin of the island of Cuba.


In 1953, Cuba had 25 percent unemployed. Today, unemployment is at 1,9 percent.

Most people did not have toilets, not even a privy. Only 44,4 percent of the population had showers or bathtubs.

90 percent of the people in rural areas were undernourished.

In 1958, Cuba had some 6,000 doctors. Today, Cuba has 71,000 doctors.

In the 1950's, Cuba had a child mortality of 37,3. Today, it is 5,8. Lower than that of many industrial countries, including the United States.

Cuba was in a horrible state.

Ray Brennan, Chicago newspaperman, gave a vivid account of this horror:

Parasites grow and mulitply within the bodies of little children.
Some of those worms, the size of an ordinary lead pencil, gather in clusters or balls, clog the intestinal system, block elimination, and cause anguished deaths. Such parasites often get into the body through the soles of the feet of children walking without shoes on infected ground. After a child dies the parasites may come slithering from the mouth and nasal passages, searching for a living organism on which to feed. What has been done about it over the years? Nothing.



In the 1950's, Cuba had 23 percent illiteracy (50 percent in rural areas).

Today, education is free of charge. Everyone can go to school.

Today, the country has 30 university graduates, intellectuals and professional artists for every one there was before the Revolution.
Life expectancy has increased by 15 years.
 

Over at another forum I post on alot of anarcho-communists use this arguement. They then claim We must stop thinking about Russian revolutionaries and start thinking about a revolution of the people with no vanguard party and 90% population support. I think this'll like 1000's of years if it'll ever happen so is a joke. Leninism that doesn't give way to Stalinism is the way to go, and from what I've read and heard in the past couple of days, Trotskyism seems like just that.

I believe the term was made by Trotsky to criticise Stalin that the "dictatorship of the proletariat" must have democratic institutions to be genuine.

I like Trotsky and Trotskyism. I like it because it is very critical of Stalin who was a monster so must be anti-dictatorship and is also pro-democratic centralism. In the past couple of days I've been reading and asking around about it and it seems like it's the branch of communism that fits me the best. I liked leninism before but there were large portions of it that I disagreed with.
 
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