LeftyHenry
DP Veteran
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2005
- Messages
- 1,896
- Reaction score
- 12
- Location
- New York City
- Gender
- Male
- Political Leaning
- Independent
alphamale said:He was one of the minions of what is by far, way way by far, the most bloodthirsty plague every let loose on human beings, the communist movement of the twentieth century, responsible for 100 million deaths, nearly infinite destruction and misery: from the bloody lawless murders in the Cabana prison, to the extinction of 1/4 of the population of Cambodia, to the tens of millions who died in the Chinese Great Leap Forward, to the tens of millions dead in the Soviet engineered Great Ukrainian Famine. It's almost unbearable to me that people can refer to "justice" and any communist who ever lived in the same breath, even if it is an uneducated sophomoric punk like you.
Che said:I don't support this type of communism, as I am a democratic socialist.
I agree with you that it was tyranical and evil. This was not what Che was fighting for. You know nothing about Che until you actually read about the rest of his life, not just his oversseeing of La Cabana.
.You are a ignorant fool if you are stupid enough to base him on something he was forced to do
You don't understand that CHe lived in the poverty.
He witnessed little children die because they're parents couldn't afford to get medical treatment in this greedy capitalist system. He fought solely for the poor and the less fortunate. For prosperity, peace and justice. You are a complete moron if you speak about someone you know nothing about.
alphamale said:Then use a democratic socialist avatar, not a murderous punk.
Communists are what communists DO, not what you say they are. The same people like you who complain about islamofascist savages being held in prison in Cuba wear T-shirts with the face of the person who blew the brains out of "enemies of the people" in Cuba in post-revolution blood vengence.
.
Whaaattttt?????? Forced to do? He was on the winning side, and he was forced to murder???
I grew up in poverty, but I never blew anyone's brains out.
I know more about history, particularly the Communist Holocaust, than you would if you lived to be a century. Castro and his henchmen CERTAINLY didn't bring either prosperity OR peace OR justice anywhere they went, but rather death and destruction. Castro asked Krushchev for a first nuclear strike against the U.S. during the cuban missile crisis, a fact I'm sure you haven't learned in your government school brainwashing classes. If Krushchev didn't have a lot more sense than the banana republic punk-with-a-gun castroites, you probably wouldn't even BE HERE to treat everyone to your pathetic, sophomoric dribble.
alphamale said:Then use a democratic socialist avatar, not a murderous punk.
Communists are what communists DO, not what you say they are. The same people like you who complain about islamofascist savages being held in prison in Cuba wear T-shirts with the face of the person who blew the brains out of "enemies of the people" in Cuba in post-revolution blood vengence.
Whaaattttt?????? Forced to do? He was on the winning side, and he was forced to murder???
I know more about history, particularly the Communist Holocaust, than you would if you lived to be a century. Castro and his henchmen CERTAINLY didn't bring either prosperity OR peace OR justice anywhere they went, but rather death and destruction. Castro asked Krushchev for a first nuclear strike against the U.S. during the cuban missile crisis, a fact I'm sure you haven't learned in your government school brainwashing classes. If Krushchev didn't have a lot more sense than the banana republic punk-with-a-gun castroites, you probably wouldn't even BE HERE to treat everyone to your pathetic, sophomoric dribble.
Comrade Brian said:Actually it sort of is. The swastika is a religious symbol of many cultures. It was also the Aryan symbol of life, if I remember correctly, and ironically the Nazi swastika is clockwise, Aryan is counter-clockwise, backwards. Also swastikas were supposed to bring good luck, "Allied" pilots in World War 1 painted swastikas on their planes like crazy.
Correction, I'm pretty sure that allied pilots painted small swastikas on their planes to represent the number of German planes they had shot down.:twocents:
Australianlibertarian said:What I don't understand; is why so many on the left idolise Che? If you wanted an example of a good domacratic socialist model, then you need look no further than Sweden. But I suppose Swedish Social Democrats, don't come across as glamorously as Che.
Davo said:People idolize him because he was just one guy looking for equality and what is simpler then that?
Trajan Octavian Titus said:Bullshit he was one guy responsible for overseeing the Cuban death camps and in collaboration with Castro is responsible for the ruin of the island of Cuba.
Davo said:Do you have any proof he was "responsible" for overseeing the death camps?
Following the collapse of the Batista regime, Guevara served as commander of the La Cabaña prison, where he personally presided over the extrajudicial executions of hundreds-perhaps thousands-of former regime officials and opponents of Castro's dictatorship.
Former dissident Armando Valladares has documented Che's personal involvement in the tortu2e and execution of political prisoners. Lest one dismiss these atrocities as relics of a bygone era, a recent Amnesty International report reminds us that, "Cuban authorities continue to suppress any form of dissent by methods such as harassment, threats, intimidation, detention and long-term imprisonment." In short, the very methods Guevara helped pioneer.
In a July 2005 New Republic essay entitled "The Killing Machine," Alvaro Vargas Llosa offers a chilling description of Guevara's serial bloodletting in the name of communist revolution. Llosa's title is an allusion to Che's famous "Message to the Tricontinental," which contained this charming passage: "Hatred as an element of struggle; unbending hatred for the enemy, which pushes a human being beyond his natural limitations, making him into an effective, violent, selective, and cold-blooded killing machine."
Llosa writes, "Che ordered the execution of a couple dozen people in Santa Clara, in central Cuba, where his column had gone as part of a final assault on the island. Some of them were shot in a hotel...among those executed, known as casquitos, were peasants who had joined the army simply to escape unemployment." Guevara later supervised the construction of a constellation of hellish "labor" camps across Cuba, which were used to imprison dissidents and, not long after his death, homosexuals and AIDS patients.
During a 1960s tour of Stalinist nations, Guevara was said to have been most enchanted with North Korea, perhaps the most Orwellian state in human history. Having personally engineered the alliance between Castro's nascent dictatorship and the Soviet Union-the oppressor of hundreds of millions of people from Pyongyang to Prague-Guevara lamented the Soviet "betrayal" of Cuba following the Cuban Missile Crisis. He informed a reporter for the socialist newspaper, The Daily Worker, that, "If the rockets had remained, we would have used them all and directed them against the very heart of the United States, including New York...."
http://www.ksgcitizen.org/home/index.cfm?event=displayArticlePrinterFriendly&uStory_id=6fd19aee-10d2-478b-ad8b-a99d7d47d428
Trajan Octavian Titus said:Oh why yes:
AND there's much much more.
Davo said:Do you honestly think cuban dissidents have much to say about Cuba? Thats like asking Palestinians about what they think of the Israelis. It's never going to be "They're ok guys". You're foolish for believing what the Cuban-American league says. It's like asking Hamas what they think of Israel. Most of what Cuban dissidents say is nothing more then exagerated fiction. Think of it as....what the prisoners in Gitmo will say after they're released.
The first words to come out of their mouths will be "We were tortured."
Australianlibertarian said:What I don't understand; is why so many on the left idolise Che? If you wanted an example of a good domacratic socialist model, then you need look no further than Sweden. But I suppose Swedish Social Democrats, don't come across as glamorously as Che.
Trajan Octavian Titus said:Cuban dissedents? You mean me? I'm foolish? You're not catching it partner, I have a personal vendetta against Che and those that follow him now will taste my steal the same!!! Nex ut tyrannus y sic semper tyrannus, licentia vel nex!!! Viva alpha 66!!!
vibeeleven said:Che, can you give us examples of communist leaders who weren't absolute dictators?
Comrade Brian said:I could- I'll give you examples of ones anyone should know. Lets' see-Marx, Engels, Lenin, Trotsky, Minh. Ones that aren't so famous-Kautsky, Leibknicht, Luxemburg, Kamenev, etc. etc.
But then again, it would have to do of what you think are communists from your perspective, some people think any dictatorship is communist, some think dictatorship and communism are opposites. Much of it has to do with perspectives. I personally don't see Stalin, Mao, Kim, etc. etc. as commies or "good" ones.
Lenin was a fool because he set up the Dictatorship of the Protaleriat. I do agree with most of the stuff he says but not the DOP.
-Marx/EngelsFreedom consists in converting the state from an organ superimposed upon society into one completely subordinate to it; and today, too, the forms of state are more free or less free to the extent that they restrict the "freedom of the state".
Between capitalist and communist society there lies the period of the revolutionary transformation of the one into the other. Corresponding to this is also a political transition period in which the state can be nothing but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat.
-Rosa LuxemburgThis dictatorship consists in the manner of applying democracy, not in its elimination, but in energetic, resolute attacks upon the well-entrenched rights and economic relationships of bourgeois society, without which a socialist transformation cannot be accomplished. This dictatorship must be the work of the class and not of a little leading minority in the name of the class – that is, it must proceed step by step out of the active participation of the masses; it must be under their direct influence, subjected to the control of complete public activity; it must arise out of the growing political training of the mass of the people.
-V.I. LeninWhat, then, is the relation of this dictatorship to democracy?
We have seen that the Communist Manifesto simply places side by side the two concepts: "to raise the proletariat to the position of the ruling class" and "to win the battle of democracy". On the basis of all that has been said above, it is possible to determine more precisely how democracy changes in the transition from capitalism to communism.
The dictatorship of the proletariat, i.e., the organization of the vanguard of the oppressed as the ruling class for the purpose of suppressing the oppressors, cannot result merely in an expansion of democracy. Simultaneously with an immense expansion of democracy, which for the first time becomes democracy for the poor, democracy for the people, and not democracy for the money-bags, the dictatorship of the proletariat imposes a series of restrictions on the freedom of the oppressors, the exploiters, the capitalists. We must suppress them in order to free humanity from wage slavery, their resistance must be crushed by force; it is clear that there is no freedom and no democracy where there is suppression and where there is violence.
That would not probably be a correct term.Minh was a dictator, right?
What is this "'true' communism"? But anyways, communism has existed before in some the earliest human societies, but those of course, have not been through the feudal and industrial societies that have been experienced today.I will say that true communism has never exsisted.
Kautsky was probably THE leading Marxist after Engel's death until about WWI, one of the leaders, and leading theoreticians of the Second International. Helped create German Social-Democracy, and was later sort of ousted for his support of WWI, which caused a large break in the socialists because many supported their own countries, and others declared it nothing more than an "imperialist war".I know nothing about the rest
Comrade Brian said:Strange, "the Dictatorship of the Proletariat" was an idea originating with Marx. This has also been with much controversy particularily between with the anarchist types, because anarchists are often idealistic. But anyways this notion "dictatorship" has often been used as a point to argue against Marxists, etc. but most who think like that misunderstand the words, "proletariat" is plural for "proletarian", therefore that implies the proletariat as a whole dictates. Also it was later cleared up by naming it "the Democratic Dictatorship of the Proletariat". Any such state must have many democratic institutions more than seen in much of today.
It is good that you do realise that.I am by no means a anarcho-Communist or a lib-communist or an Anarcho-syndicalist because these ideas are too idealistic too work
I would be lying if I claimed that Leninism didn't give way towards Stalinism, but then again since Marxism gave way to Leninism, so Marxism has too given way to Stalinism. But then again Stalinism has contradictions with both Leninism and Marxism, particularily with their "worshipping" of Lenin and Stalin, nationalism, statism, extravagant bureaucracy, etc. etc.I like to consider myself a Reform leninist because classic leninism is what set the mold for Stalinism and the USSR
I believe the term was made by Trotsky to criticise Stalin that the "dictatorship of the proletariat" must have democratic institutions to be genuine.I like the idea of "the Democratic dictatorship of the protaleriat" but many leninists I've spoken to never mentioned it.
I'm glad he's dead and if he wasn't I'd put a bullet in his head myself fuc/k Guevara may he rot in hell. Viva alpha 66!!!!
and in collaboration with Castro is responsible for the ruin of the island of Cuba.
Comrade Brian said:I would be lying if I claimed that Leninism didn't give way towards Stalinism, but then again since Marxism gave way to Leninism, so Marxism has too given way to Stalinism. But then again Stalinism has contradictions with both Leninism and Marxism, particularily with their "worshipping" of Lenin and Stalin, nationalism, statism, extravagant bureaucracy, etc. etc.
I believe the term was made by Trotsky to criticise Stalin that the "dictatorship of the proletariat" must have democratic institutions to be genuine.
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