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Che Guevara - Hero or Menace?

Medusa said:
he was like a modern robin hood :)
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NOt really, Robin Hood was a saxon lord who was upset that norman conquerers were stealing the wealth of once prosperous Saxons who had been displaced by a corrupt centralized government. Robin took from the tax collectors money they had looted from the people and which was going to corrupt nobles. It was not redistribution of income but depriving a corrupt government of what they stole from those who earned it
 
Captain America said:
In terms of body count, I wonder how history will judge us (America.)
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Pretty well given you have absolutely nothing to fear by asking that question. SUch would not be the case in many other nations
 
1029066 said:
So you're saying that you support unequal wealth distribution and imperialist oppression on the people? And you are saying you hate him because he killed people, yet the CIA and Bolivian soldiers murdered him? Here's a quote by him, said right before he died: "I know you are here to kill me. Shoot, coward, you are only going to kill a man." And he was right. People still support his ideologies of fighting injustice.
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I support winners being able to win. "imperialist oppression" Bolivia? He was an asshole trying to screw around with a country in which he was neither a native nor a citizen. He was a radical insurgent and got what was coming to him
 
TurtleDude said:
Pretty well given you have absolutely nothing to fear by asking that question. SUch would not be the case in many other nations
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Of course. That's because we're so much better at genocide than they've ever been-- even the Nazis were only trying to live up to our example.
 
1029066 said:
For those who don't know, Che Guevara is basically the face of revolution, having sparked many leftist revolutions throughout Latin America in the late 50's, the most successful of which was the overthrow of the Cuban dictator, Batista. He spoke out against capitalism and imperialism and believed in world revolution in the name of the people and proletariat through use of guerrilla militant tactics. He was murdered by CIA-assisted Bolivian troops while he was stirring revolution in Bolivia.

Ok, now do you all think he was a great liberator or a psycho killing menace?

Personally, he's one of my favorite historical figures, and I believe there needs to be more people like him in the modern world. Agree? Disagree? Tell me!
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I think he was a complex person and so was the life he lead. We can't really boil him down to either. He was an instrument of change, much of it welcomed by every day people, but he did questionable things to achieve it. What I admire about the story of Guevara was his commitment to fulfilling his vision of liberation, and his dedication to the ideal of a unified latin continent. Problem is... that kind of widespread change does not happen overnight without force applied.

Interesting that he started out as a med student, but later wanted to apply a sort of revolutionary cleansing to Latin America. It's my understanding that he started out less brutal and more idealistic, and adopted more violent tactics later. I wonder what changed in him to cause him to start doing that?
 
TurtleDude said:
NOt really, Robin Hood was a saxon lord who was upset that norman conquerers were stealing the wealth of once prosperous Saxons who had been displaced by a corrupt centralized government. Robin took from the tax collectors money they had looted from the people and which was going to corrupt nobles. It was not redistribution of income but depriving a corrupt government of what they stole from those who earned it
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but as fas as i know, norman invasions had started the history of Britain.

anyway ,che is more real than robin and he helped humanity ,not nobelity,İ believe in this fact,turtledude.
 
Read a biography on him and make up your own mind.
 
Temporal said:
I think he was a complex person and so was the life he lead. We can't really boil him down to either. He was an instrument of change, much of it welcomed by every day people, but he did questionable things to achieve it. What I admire about the story of Guevara was his commitment to fulfilling his vision of liberation, and his dedication to the ideal of a unified latin continent. Problem is... that kind of widespread change does not happen overnight without force applied.

Interesting that he started out as a med student, but later wanted to apply a sort of revolutionary cleansing to Latin America. It's my understanding that he started out less brutal and more idealistic, and adopted more violent tactics later. I wonder what changed in him to cause him to start doing that?
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That's a very interesting question actually! I wonder what did make him become so violent. People here reading my posts seem to think that I support his executions. The only reason why I'm advocating for him is because of his basic ideologies and the way he was dedicated to bettering the living standards of humanity. He wanted justice, and yes, his executions were immoral. Perhaps he became drunk with power after he was placed in a position of it.
 
Medusa said:
but as fas as i know, norman invasions had started the history of Britain.

anyway ,che is more real than robin and he helped humanity ,not nobelity,İ believe in this fact,turtledude.
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He helped humanity...before he started fighting it! Let's not ignore the fact that he helped bring into power one of the most totalitarian nations in the world and assisted in the execution of people who merely disagreed with communism, because he hated imperialism.
 
MadLib said:
He helped humanity...before he started fighting it! Let's not ignore the fact that he helped bring into power one of the most totalitarian nations in the world and assisted in the execution of people who merely disagreed with communism, because he hated imperialism.
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"I have yet to find a single credible source pointing to a case where Che executed 'an innocent'. Those persons executed by Guevara or on his orders were condemned for the usual crimes punishable by death at times of war or in its aftermath: desertion, treason or crimes such as rape, torture or murder. I should add that my research spanned five years, and included anti-Castro Cubans among the Cuban-American exile community in Miami and elsewhere."
--Jon Lee Anderson author of Che Guevara A Revolutionary Life
 
TheDemSocialist said:
"I have yet to find a single credible source pointing to a case where Che executed 'an innocent'. Those persons executed by Guevara or on his orders were condemned for the usual crimes punishable by death at times of war or in its aftermath: desertion, treason or crimes such as rape, torture or murder. I should add that my research spanned five years, and included anti-Castro Cubans among the Cuban-American exile community in Miami and elsewhere."
--Jon Lee Anderson author of Che Guevara A Revolutionary Life
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Being a true lefty, it doesn't much matter that Jon Lee Anderson thought that the people Che killed deserved it or not. Most lefty's, like myself, are against the death penalty. Not to mention that he played judge, jury and executioner. Kind of destroys Mr. Anderson's assertion that Che only killed the guilty when there was no real trial.
 
MadLib said:
He helped humanity...before he started fighting it! Let's not ignore the fact that he helped bring into power one of the most totalitarian nations in the world and assisted in the execution of people who merely disagreed with communism, because he hated imperialism.
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what about the executions ,pogroms ,wars caused by imperialism ?
 
Medusa said:
what about the executions ,pogroms ,wars caused by imperialism ?
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They were terrible too, however, the answer to atrocity isn't to mimic them. That's the beauty of the successful lefty movements of peace. MLK, Ghandi, Jesus... Kill them with kindness and civil disobedience.
 
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poweRob said:
They were terrible too, however, the answer to atrocity isn't to mimic them. That's the beauty of the successful lefty movements of peace. MLK, Ghandi, Jesus... Kill them with kindness and civil disobedience.
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che was not a jesus,and he couldnt offer the other cheek..:roll:
 
Medusa said:
che was not a jesus,and he couldnt offer the other cheek..:roll:
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he could have been or at least learned from Ghandi. But instead, he chose to be a murdering asshole who is a blight on the image of the left unfortunately.
 
poweRob said:
he could have been or at least learned from Ghandi. But instead, he chose to be a murdering asshole who is a blight on the image of the left unfortunately.
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ı never support any murder!!!! and what do you have in order to claim he was a murderer??
 
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Medusa said:
ı never support any murder!!!! and what do you have in order to claim he was a murderer??
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Post cuba revolution executioner. That was he. Executing political opposition.
 
poweRob said:
Being a true lefty, it doesn't much matter that Jon Lee Anderson thought that the people Che killed deserved it or not.
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Jon Lee Anderson is a "true lefty"?
Really?

Most lefty's, like myself, are against the death penalty.
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Uhh i know plenty of "leftys" that are pro death penalty. But im anti death penalty, but im for it in cases of war crimes.

Not to mention that he played judge, jury and executioner. Kind of destroys Mr. Anderson's assertion that Che only killed the guilty when there was no real trial.
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Hmm I can see this one went right over your head.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
Jon Lee Anderson is a "true lefty"?
Really?


Uhh i know plenty of "leftys" that are pro death penalty. But im anti death penalty, but im for it in cases of war crimes.


Hmm I can see this one went right over your head.
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Never said anderson was a true lefty. I am. anderson apparently was making excuses as to why Che executed people. I find there is no excuse. So I'm not of the camp that says "im anti death penalty, but..."
 
poweRob said:
Never said anderson was a true lefty. I am. anderson apparently was making excuses as to why Che executed people. I find there is no excuse. So I'm not of the camp that says "im anti death penalty, but..."
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How was he making excuses. He did extensive research and asserted his opinion backed up by facts (in the book).
And probably something you dont know about these "trials" (that you have asserted were unfair and based upon political beliefs) is that the application of the death penalty in Cuba against war criminals and others followed the same procedure as that seen in the trials by the Allies in the Nuremberg trials.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
How was he making excuses. He did extensive research and asserted his opinion backed up by facts (in the book).
And probably something you dont know about these "trials" (that you have asserted were unfair and based upon political beliefs) is that the application of the death penalty in Cuba against war criminals and others followed the same procedure as that seen in the trials by the Allies in the Nuremberg trials.
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I'm not denying what he came up with. According to your post:


Those persons executed by Guevara or on his orders were condemned for the usual crimes punishable by death at times of war or in its aftermath​


That's an excuse for killing. There was no need for it. He basically just said that the killing Che did was ok because it was what everyone else does during a post war era. That's a load of crap IMO and it doesn't represent what the left should be standing for.
 
poweRob said:
I'm not denying what he came up with. According to your post:


Those persons executed by Guevara or on his orders were condemned for the usual crimes punishable by death at times of war or in its aftermath​


That's an excuse for killing. There was no need for it. He basically just said that the killing Che did was ok because it was what everyone else does during a post war era. That's a load of crap IMO and it doesn't represent what the left should be standing for.
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What executing war criminals?
I guess that just comes by difference of opinion.
 
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