Chavez Says He May Seek 'Indefinite' Re-election

[Napoleon's Nightingale]

our unemloyment is below 5% there's is at 12.3%.

Unemployment amoung U.S. teenagers is above 15%. Note the drastic decrease in unemployment after the opposition was re-booted from power at the end of 2002.

No i'm not he's instituted many a fascist law since he took power.

No he hasn't.

wtf are you talking about? The u.s. doesn't have a primary source of income our economy is diversified.

Nice try at shifting the goal posts. We're not talking about the United States. We're talking about Latin America.

 

[Napoleon's Nightingale]

And thats....good for the economy?

The Chavez economy has been VERY good thus far. If you don't believe that debt is good then maybe you should talk to the U.S. government about reforming our economy.

Except we have the long term GDP growth to back it up. Venezuela doesn't, not by a long shot.

Venezuela's new economy has only been around for 6 years. So far, it's continuously growing rapidly. At least when the opposition isn't trying to sabotage it by staging coup d'etats, staging recalls, and staging strikes.

You've got to be kidding me. You're saying that if the US wouldn't spray these Cocaine crops, these poor nations would be prosperous and successful? And your comments about the US as an imperialist nation, as much as your friends in your socialist circle might enjoy them, don't play well with the reality-based community.

They would be far more prosperous than they are now. The U.S. is an imperialist nation and I've proven it time and time against on this message board. Careful with the word socialist by the way. I'm not a socialist.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Unemployment amoung U.S. teenagers is above 15%. Note the drastic decrease in unemployment after the opposition was re-booted from power at the end of 2002.

Ya now give me the figure for how many American teenagers still live with their parents.



U.s.: work force: 149.3 million pop: 298,444,215

Ven: POP:25,730,435 Work force: 12.31 million

No he hasn't.

Yes he has and I've showed you.

Nice try at shifting the goal posts. We're not talking about the United States. We're talking about Latin America.

Your first post about the American bombs was unclear please clarify.

 

[Napoleon's Nightingale]

Want to show me any nation that has better numbers?

The CIA factbook ranks the U.S. as having only the 48th best unemployment rate in the world.

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2129rank.html

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

The CIA factbook ranks the U.S. as having only the 48th best unemployment rate in the world.

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2129rank.html

numberssss as in plural you offered a singular response.

 

[Red_Dave]

Because Chaves has made it illegal to speak out against the governmen, rewritten the constitution to insure his power, and has formed a cult of personality he is a populist demagogue and remember Hitler was quite popular with the Germans too, it didn't make him any less of a tyrant.

No he hasnt. Privately owned media in venezuela is mainly anti-government [for obvious reasons] Yet chavez had still been given the aproval of his people at least 7 times. Hitler never got over 50% of seats in the Reichstag so he wasnt that popular. Before abolishing the Wiemar system he could only get legislation through by arresting and/or intimidateing members the opposition. Far from being a tyrant Chavez is resisiting the tyranny of U.S multinationals whom no one in venezuela elected.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

No he hasnt. Privately owned media in venezuela is mainly anti-government [for obvious reasons] Yet chavez had still been given the aproval of his people at least 7 times. Hitler never got over 50% of seats in the Reichstag so he wasnt that popular. Before abolishing the Wiemar system he could only get legislation through by arresting and/or intimidateing members the opposition. Far from being a tyrant Chavez is resisiting the tyranny of U.S multinationals whom no one in venezuela elected.

Intimidating the opposition? You mean like murdering members of the press.

 

[Vader]

Chavez needs to shut his hole and stop acting like a damn dictator.

:lol:

 

[RightinNYC]

The Chavez economy has been VERY good thus far. If you don't believe that debt is good then maybe you should talk to the U.S. government about reforming our economy.

Debt that is controlled in proportion to GDP is fine. Debt that grows by 1500% in 6 years and is still increasing exponentially is not.

It's really not that hard a concept.

Venezuela's new economy has only been around for 6 years. So far, it's continuously growing rapidly. At least when the opposition isn't trying to sabotage it by staging coup d'etats, staging recalls, and staging strikes.

Hahahahaha, so when people protest and strike against a right-wing leader, you consider it to be a "peoples movement," but when it happens against a leftist dictator, you consider it sabotage?

They would be far more prosperous than they are now. The U.S. is an imperialist nation and I've proven it time and time against on this message board. Careful with the word socialist by the way. I'm not a socialist.

:roll: Right. I must have missed it when you proved that. And I withdraw the socialist comment, I don't believe that you would fit into any box quite that easy.

 

[RightinNYC]

The CIA factbook ranks the U.S. as having only the 48th best unemployment rate in the world.

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2129rank.html

Look at your own list.

32/48 are so miniscule that they can't even be considered on the same scale.

Norfolk Island, Guernsey, Isle of Man, Jersey, Faroe Islands....

Bueh.

Let's look at the others:

UAE, Kuwait, Qatar - In these nations, of course there's low unemployment - No citizens work. These countries are run similar to ancient Rome, foreigners immigrate from 3rd world countries, work in chattel slave conditions at the whim of their "employers," and are sent home when they're done. People without jobs are deported.

Mexico - Of course they have 3.6 unemployment, considering that 10% of their country is here in the US.:lol:

And for the majority of the rest of these nations, they are undeveloped enough to the point that they simply do not keep the type of records that we do. China, Singapore, Thailand, Cambodia...they all claim to have lower unemployment than the US. Even if that were true, how many of those people are working in sweatshops?

Don't just look at numbers and pretend like that's the whole story. The US has an economy that is the envy of every industrialized nation in the world.

 

[RightinNYC]

And in case you missed it....

Media Group Says Chavez Silencing Critics
Jul 19

A U.S.-based press freedom group said Wednesday that President Hugo Chavez is using the courts and legal reforms to weaken journalists critical of his leftist government.

Wrapping up a three-day visit to Venezuela, delegates from the Inter American Press Association expressed concern that threats to press freedom under Chavez could increase as Venezuela prepares for presidential elections in December.

"The different branches of government appear to have a strategy to weaken the work of the independent press," IAPA President Diana Daniels of The Washington Post Co., told a press conference. "We are worried that, far from improving press conditions in the country, freedom could be further restricted before and after the election."

Chavez denies curbing press freedoms, and frequently points to the private media's strident criticism of his government as evidence of freedom of expression.

Gonzalo Marroquin, head of the IAPA press freedoms commission, said the most serious threats were new laws allowing the government to close media outlets that violate strict broadcasting norms and reforms increasing prison sentences for libel and slander.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

numberssss as in plural you offered a singular response.

*retract statement* .............stupid response

 

[Red_Dave]

Intimidating the opposition? You mean like murdering members of the press.

No allowing armed members of the SS to watch voteing in the Reichstag. When did this happen?

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

No allowing armed members of the SS to watch voteing in the Reichstag. When did this happen?

I would say murdering members of the press for writing bad things about Chaves would constitute as intimidating the opposition.

 

[Red_Dave]

I would say murdering members of the press for writing bad things about Chaves would constitute as intimidating the opposition.

Thats great but my question still stands

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Thats great but my question still stands

When did it happen?

Here ya go:

377. The uninterrupted continuation of acts of aggression and intimidation directed at media workers in Venezuela reflects the deepening of the institutional and political conflict that has affected the country over the past two years. The legitimate endeavors of media workers in reporting on different situations that affect the country’s social, cultural, and economic life and, in particular, the political situation and human rights, have encouraged certain sectors to attempt, in different ways, to silence them.

378. The IACHR and the Rapporteur’s office have noted the repeated occurrence of verbal and physical attacks in recent years. There has been no end to the attacks and threats made against media workers, particularly those covering events, political gatherings, and activities relating to the security forces. Before, during, and after its on-site visit, the IACHR was told that reporters working in public spaces were the targets of attacks and harassment. The prevailing general situation in Venezuela has fueled a climate of constant aggression and threats against freedom of expression and, in particular, against the physical integrity of reporters, camera operators, photographers, and other media workers. The recorded incidents range from threats and personal injuries to violations of the right to life, such as the murder of Mr. Jorge Tortosa, a press photographer with Diario 2001, during the events of April 11, 2002.

379. A large number of cases dealing with threats and other forms of harassment against journalists have been lodged with the IACHR. On several occasions since late 2001, therefore, the IACHR has requested the adoption of precautionary measures to protect different media workers and media outlets. These include workers and/or executives with the following media companies: El Nacional, El Universal, RCTV, Globovisión, Así es la Noticia, and La Razón. As an example, the IACHR offers the following extracts from the information it has received regarding attacks on reporters: On April 11, Hugo Rafael Sánchez Uzcátegui, an RCTV correspondent in Zulia State, received numerous intimidating telephone calls, some threatening him with death, while he was covering the public gathering in front of the PDVSA building in Maracaibo. In the early morning of Friday 12, after attending a press conference called by the military high command in Zulia State at the headquarters of the 1st Infantry Division, he was persistently followed by an unidentified automobile. On April 11, members and/or supporters of the government party, the MVR, threw stones at reporter Edward Rodríguez and cameraman Hernán Terán, who were in the metropolitan area of Puerto La Cruz – Barcelona, Anzoátegui State, covering a march by the Workers’ Federation of Anzoátegui State. On April 13 they were again attacked while attempting to report on protests and looting, and violent threats were made against them.

380. In late 2002 and early 2003, the Commission received information about attacks on the following media workers: José Rodríguez of the daily El Impulso; Martín Urteaga of the daily El Informador; Miguel López of Telecentro; Clara Reverol and Gusravo Escalona of Televen; Cristián Rodríguez of Promar TV; Yleana Brett of Diario Hoy; and Julio Torres of Venevisión. All these incidents occurred while they were covering a demonstration of government supporters and opponents in the city of Barquisimeto, Lara State. In Caracas, Fernando Malavé of Diario 2001 and José Antonio Dávila of CMT. In the same city, reports indicate that the journalists Luis Alfonso Fernández of Venevisión and Aymar Lorenzo de Globovisión were beaten by police officers. Mauricio Cabal, cameraman Rubén Brito, and assistant Marcos Martínez of Venevisión were threatened at the entrance to the state-owned oil company Petróleos de Venezuela (PDVSA) in the city of Anaco, Anzoátegui State, and their vehicle was damaged. Verioska Velasco, cameraman Luis Mata, and assistant Alfonso Vásquez of Promar Televisión, and cameraman Samuel Sotomayor of RCTV were attacked in the city of Barquisimeto. On January 12, Héctor Castillo, a photographer with the Caracas evening paper El Mundo, was injured by a baton round while he was covering clashes between members of the armed forces and participants in an opposition march that was attempting to reach the Los Próceres monument, near the military base known as Tiuna Fort.

381. Mention could also be made of a number of examples that serve to indicate the continued perpetration of attacks against media workers: On January 7, 2003, a van belonging to Puerto Visión from Puerto Cabello, Carabobo State, was stoned and beaten with iron bars while it was carrying a team of reporters led by Humberto Ambrosino. On January 9, a vehicle carrying reporters from El Correo del Canoní was attacked in Puerto Ordaz, Bolívar State. On January 14, hooded individuals on motorcycles attempted to set fire to a vehicle belonging to the Televen network. In light of this, the IACHR has, on several occasions since late 2001, requested the adoption of precautionary measures to protect different media workers and media outlets. These include workers and/or executives with the following media concerns: El Nacional, El Universal, RCTV, Globovisión, Así es la Noticia, and La Razón. [177]

382. Another case worthy of note is that of the Ecuadorian journalist Mauricio Muñoz Amaya, who was hit by gunfire on November 4, 2002, in the vicinity of the National Electoral Council (CNE) during a Democratic Coordinator march carrying more than two million citizens’ signatures calling for a referendum to recall President Hugo Chávez. That same day, November 4, Héctor Castillo, a journalist-cum-photographer attached to the daily El Mundo, was beaten up by government supporters during the same event. On September 22, unidentified individuals shot firearms at the home of Carlos Barrios, the director of radio station Astro 97.7.

383. During 2002, four bomb attacks were carried out in the vicinity of the premises of the broadcaster Globovisión. The last incident took place on November 17, 2002. Later, on January 31, 2002, a bomb was thrown in front of the offices of Así es la Noticia; and, on October 19, an explosive device detonated at the premises of Unión Radio in Chacao municipality, Caracas.

384. The IACHR has also noted that sectors of the government are following a line of discourse tending toward the professional discrediting of journalists and the filing of administrative procedures that could lead to the suspension or cancellation of broadcasting licenses and/or permits.

385. To summarize, the situation described above has the effect of intimidating media workers: many are afraid to identify themselves as reporters out of fear of possible reprisals.

http://www.cidh.org/countryrep/Venezuela2003eng/chapter6.htm

 

[Red_Dave]

When did it happen?

Here ya go:

Not one of the cases you listed was an example of government repression. The acts of violence you mentioned where carried out by individuals and not sanctioned by the government. There where many violent attacks against those on the left in america during the cold war era but that didnt equate to government repression.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Not one of the cases you listed was an example of government repression. The acts of violence you mentioned where carried out by individuals and not sanctioned by the government. There where many violent attacks against those on the left in america during the cold war era but that didnt equate to government repression.

That's like saying the Nazi government wasn't responsible for Crystol Noch (night of the broken glass) what a crock the government is responsible for the protection of the press and for the actions of the militia. Chavez can't whip these people up into a frenzy by claiming that they're (the press) pawns of the U.s. and then not take responsibility when his loyal followers go off to kill, beat, and harass journalists.

 

[Red_Dave]

That's like saying the Nazi government wasn't responsible for Crystol Noch (night of the broken glass) what a crock the government is responsible for the protection of the press and for the actions of the militia. Chavez can't whip these people up into a frenzy by claiming that they're (the press) pawns of the U.s. and then not take responsibility when his loyal followers go off to kill, beat, and harass journalists.

From what i remember most behind CrystolNoch where SS/SA members where they not? at what point did chavez tell his supporters to respond violently? You could use the same argument to say that the U.S govt was responsible for acts of violence against leftists that i mentioned before.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

From what i remember most behind CrystolNoch where SS/SA members where they not?

Ya just like it's the militia that's responsible for the murder of these journalists.

at what point did chavez tell his supporters to respond violently?

Doesn't matter if he directly ordered them or not he set the stage for this to happen through inflammatory speeches.

You could use the same argument to say that the U.S govt was responsible for acts of violence against leftists that i mentioned before.

No you can't because our leaders (save for maybe McCarthy) never encouraged the violence through inflammatory rhetoric and it wasn't our military who did the attacks and when it was like in Kent state that was the governments fault.

 

[Red_Dave]

Ya just like it's the militia that's responsible for the murder of these journalists.



Doesn't matter if he directly ordered them or not he set the stage for this to happen through inflammatory speeches.


No you can't because our leaders (save for maybe McCarthy) never encouraged the violence through inflammatory rhetoric and it wasn't our military who did the attacks and when it was like in Kent state that was the governments fault.

well there was plenty of inflammatory rhetoric about the "threat" comunism possed but no direct condonation of violence. Likewise Chavez may have condemed the media that played a part in his ousting from power but frequently encourages his followers to stick to peaceful democratic and consitutional means of bringing about change.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

well there was plenty of inflammatory rhetoric about the "threat" comunism possed but no direct condonation of violence. Likewise Chavez may have condemed the media that played a part in his ousting from power but frequently encourages his followers to stick to peaceful democratic and consitutional means of bringing about change.

Ya while simultaneosly building a million man militia he speaks out of both sides of his mouth.

 

[Red_Dave]

Ya while simultaneosly building a million man militia he speaks out of both sides of his mouth.

How so? the milita's needed for defence.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

How so? the milita's needed for defence.

Defense against what? Chaves created that militia to suppress the opposition and maintain his power

 

[Red_Dave]

Defense against what? Chaves created that militia to suppress the opposition and maintain his power

Further coup attempts e.t.c Theres plenty of media opposition so i doubt its surpressed.