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Castro says U.S. afraid to face Cuba in Classic

Comrade Brian said:
Are you saying Pinochet is better than Allende?
I would think killing the president is mighty illegal.

Not when he was under orders by the Chamber of Deputies the equivalent to the U.S. House of Representatives, it is Allende who was the tyrant and it was he who sought out to destroy the Republic through continous usurptations of executive power in violation of the Chilean Constitution in order that he might create a totalitarian Communist dictatorship.

The ousting of Allende by the military was put to a vote by the Chilean Congress.

It was Allende who was the tyrant, Pinochet was the servant of the Republic.
 
FinnMacCool said:
Why do you constantly snipe at Chompsky? He's an anarcho-syndicalist intellectual, on a completely different level from people like Michael Moore and O'Reilly. Does the fact that he is quoted often by liberals make you angry or something?

Because Chomsky is a hypocritical propagandist deushe bag.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
It was Allende who was the tyrant, Pinochet was the servant of the Republic.

Allende was voted into office.

Allende was a socialist, not a communist or dictator.

Allende helped reduce inequality, poverty, etc.

Pinochet was a fascist/right-wing dictator.

Pinochet killed virtually anyone who opposed him/"lefties".

Pinochet took office illegaly.

You live in a sad, delusional world Trojan.
 
Comrade Brian said:
Allende was voted into office.

Allende was a socialist, not a communist or dictator.

Allende helped reduce inequality, poverty, etc.

Pinochet was a fascist/right-wing dictator.

Pinochet killed virtually anyone who opposed him/"lefties".

Pinochet took office illegaly.

You live in a sad, delusional world Trojan.

Oh, c'mon. At least try to type with integrity. The problem with conspiracy theorists is that they are never content with the real story. They look for the controversey and then twist, exxagerate, and embellish the reality until everything they say is laughed at. In other words they ruin any credibility they might have had........

Allende was an ardent Marxist and, as such, an outspoken critic of capitalism. He ran unsuccessfully for the presidency on three occasions: in the 1952 election, 1958 election, and 1964 election, joking that his epitaph would be "Here lies the next President of Chile." In 1952, he obtained only 5.4%, which was partly due to a division within socialist ranks, with some supporting Carlos Ibáñez and the prohibition of communism. In 1958, he presented himself again as candidate of the socialist and communist alliance FRAP (Frente de Acción Popular, Popular Action Front), and obtained 28.5% of the vote. This time, his defeat was attributed to the candidacy of populist Antonio Zamorano, who would have taken away some popular votes. In 1964, he again represented FRAP, and lost again, with 38.6% of the votes against 55.6% for Christian Democrat Eduardo Frei. As it became clear that the election would be a race between Allende and Frei, the Right—which had initially backed Radical Julio Durán—settled for Frei instead as "the lesser evil". Allende finally won the 1970 Chilean presidential election as leader of the Unidad Popular ("Popular Unity") coalition. On September 4, 1970, he obtained a narrow plurality of 36.2 percent to 34.9 percent over Jorge Alessandri, a former president, with 27.8 percent. The superpowers -- the USSR and the United States -- were invested in the result of the election. The KGB spent $420,000 in the campaign unbeknownst to Allende, while ITT gave at least $350,000 to Jorge Alessandri. The Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) was confident in Alessandri's victory, and did not see the need to fund Alessandri directly.

The Christian Democratic Party later forged an alliance with the Right and was initially supportive of military intervention to remove Allende from office, although began to disassociate itself because of the manifestly undemocratic and violently repressive nature of the Pinochet Dictatorship.

Allende is seen as a hero to many on the political Left. Some view him as a martyr who died for the cause of socialism. His face has even been stylized and reproduced as a symbol of Marxism, similar to the famous images of Che Guevara. Some hold the United States, specifically Henry Kissinger and the CIA, responsible for his death, and view him as a victim of American imperialism. But for Allende's supporters, the most relevant and revolutionary of his legacies lies in his incorruptible democratic conviction, which nourished the idea that Socialism can be reached through a democratic, pacific path. It is argued that, under the light of history, this may raise him to a visionary, and the weight that his democratic ideas have in nowadays leftist Latin American politics can be felt in Venezuela and, most recently, Bolivia.


Statue of Allende in ViennaOthers view Allende much less favorably. He is criticized for his government's mass nationalization of private industry, alleged friendliness with more militant groups such as the Movement of the Revolutionary Left, and the supply shortages and hyperinflation that occurred during the latter years of his presidency; all these had combined to cause a strong polarization in the country and the committed opposition of the Christian Democratic Party at the time of the coup. He is also accused of having had an autocratic style, attempting to circumvent the Congress and having a hostile attitude toward critical media.

A common and more severe criticism is that because of his closeness with Fidel Castro and Eastern bloc countries, he was planning to convert Chile into a Cuban-style dictatorship.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvador_Allende

The question is why were the Soviets so invested in the election process of a country on our side of the world? We already dealt with one problem that involved Soviet influence (Castro.) I guess it just depends on your political allegiance or your level of ignorance.
 
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SO do you agree with Titus's breathtaking assertion that Pinochet was a good man? It is almost on a par with holocaust-denial... Yes Hitler claimed to be saving Germany from the Communists too....
 
Touchmaster said:
SO do you agree with Titus's breathtaking assertion that Pinochet was a good man? It is almost on a par with holocaust-denial... Yes Hitler claimed to be saving Germany from the Communists too....

Lest we forget, Hitler was "protecting" Germany also.

Protecting true Germans all in the name of "Homeland Security".
 
It's ridiculous to claim that Pinochet was anything other than a despicable human being. With that said, he was the lesser of two evils. If not for him, Chile would've fallen into the Soviet sphere of influence and would most likely be as poor today as the rest of South America.
 
Touchmaster said:
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-13375750,00.html
this source un-left-wing enough for you Titus? (sky news is part of news corp, same as your beloved fox, that well-known haven of 'socialist revisionism')

lmfao I gave you the actual resolution by the Chilean Deputy of Chambers ordering the military to remove Allende for crimes against the Republic and you give me newspaper articles.... bravo. :roll:
 
KidRocks said:
Lest we forget, Hitler was "protecting" Germany also.

Protecting true Germans all in the name of "Homeland Security".

And lest we forget that Hitler was ravidly un-Democratic and just as socialist as Stalin.

Pinochet was a Capitialist who was not out to destroy Democracy he was out to preserve it, that proof can be seen in the fact that Chile is a firmly Democratic state to this very day.

Pinochet preserved the Republic which Allende set out to destroy.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
And lest we forget that Hitler was ravidly un-Democratic and just as socialist as Stalin.

Pinochet was a Capitialist who was not out to destroy Democracy he was out to preserve it, that proof can be seen in the fact that Chile is a firmly Democratic state to this very day.

Pinochet preserved the Republic which Allende set out to destroy.

Pinochet was a capitalist, yes, and as far as murderous tyrants go he was one of the better ones for the long-term health of his country. But claiming he preserved the republic by overthrowing the government is beyond ridiculous. Why are you defending this mass murderer?
 
Kandahar said:
Pinochet was a capitalist, yes, and as far as murderous tyrants go he was one of the better ones for the long-term health of his country. But claiming he preserved the republic by overthrowing the government is beyond ridiculous. Why are you defending this mass murderer?

Go back a couple of pages to where I posted the resolution of the Chilean Deputy of Chamber (equivalent of the U.S. House of Representatives)

Pinochet was under orders from congress to remove Allende from power for crimes against the Republic.

The resolution is a real eye opener as to what really happened back in 1973 Chile the crap you hear about Pinochet overthrowing the Republic is revisionist horseshit created by the socialists in order to skew the picture in favor of the true Communist tyrant Allende.

Actually here's a link:

http://www.economiaysociedad.com/declaration.html
 
I have not in my long time as a discusser of political issues encountered somebody so hypocritical and bloody-minded, I am astounded I really am. I imagine (and hope) that anybody reading this thread will never take you seriously again, for you are an 'appeaser of tyrants', to coin your own facile term, that would put David Irving to shame.

While it is certainly true that the political situation was deeply complicated in the time preceding the coup, and there was indeed widespread unrest from both the working class supporters of the socialist movement and the forces representing the capitalist elite who felt their interests threatened (and it must be noted that the CIA has admitted its involvement in this unrest, with the sponsoring of business lockouts and anti-government media propaganda - which interestingly parallel the exact tactics used to attempt destabilisation of the current Venezuelan administration in the last four years), which culminated in the Christian Democrats breaking their coalition with Allende's party and joining the right-wing nationalists - together they held a majority in congress, but not the two thirds majority required to force allende to step down, and so they tried to undermine him with this motion that you have quoted, later used as justification by the Coup plotters. In actual fact, the only part of this document (which was of course drawn up by Allende's enemies, and makes no specific reference to any named events, and is a translation posted on a clearly extremist website, so Im still unconvinced of its wording) that relates to any sort of action against allende's administration is this -

'to likewise point out that by virtue of their responsibilities, their pledge of allegiance to the Constitution and to the laws they have served, and in the case of the ministers, by virtue of the nature of the institutions of which they are high-ranking officials and of Him whose name they invoked upon taking office, it is their duty to put an immediate end to all situations herein referred to that breach the Constitution and the laws of the land with the goal of redirecting government activity toward the path of Law and ensuring the constitutional order of our Nation and the essential underpinnings of democratic coexistence among Chileans;'

And this part was aimed at all the branches of government, not just the miltary - it was therefore clearly intended to undermine and embaress the government into backing down on some of its proposals, but to say that it is directly ordering a coup is a large leap of faith... especially as Im pretty sure that Pinochet didnt 'redirect government activity toward the path of Law' or ensure the 'constitutional order of [the] nation', and certainly didnt 'ensure democratic coexistence between Chileans', as his 17 years of Dictatorship made clear.

Still denying those 3000 dead as well Titus? Id like an explicit reply as to whether you deny that 3000 people were murdered by the Pinochet regime, and please post explicit evidence (ie not vague wording about constitutional disorder) to suggest anything like this level of barbarity took place under Allende - numbers of dead, etc.
 
Touchmaster said:
SO do you agree with Titus's breathtaking assertion that Pinochet was a good man? It is almost on a par with holocaust-denial... Yes Hitler claimed to be saving Germany from the Communists too....

I just like history to be accurate. It is only accurate if you study and look at it from all angles.

Pinochet was a militant dictator that brought about a defined end. While his targets and abuse were selective to what he overthrew, his means were brutal. It would have been the same thing as if we had removed Hitler through CIA operatives and a coup and then backed off as the new guy destroyed the remnants of the Nazi Party and their adherents. Removing Allende was understandable. The CIA distanced itself after the results of the coup did not bring about the perfect intent. From what I have read on the subject, the American government was not happy with the manifestly undemocratic result and violently repressive nature of the Pinochet Dictatorship.

I do not agree with his means, but what was the alternative? Get rid of him and try to promote some one from within his military and risk the stability against Soviet influence that Pinochet brought? Pinochet had very loyal officers and this endeavor had to be as small as possible. Like I have said, we had a very real and possible threat with Allende and the American people were still trying to put Vietnam behind them. Once the threat was removed, the damage was also done.
 
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Touchmaster said:
I have not in my long time as a discusser of political issues encountered somebody so hypocritical and bloody-minded, I am astounded I really am. I imagine (and hope) that anybody reading this thread will never take you seriously again, for you are an 'appeaser of tyrants', to coin your own facile term, that would put David Irving to shame.

While it is certainly true that the political situation was deeply complicated in the time preceding the coup, and there was indeed widespread unrest from both the working class supporters of the socialist movement and the forces representing the capitalist elite who felt their interests threatened (and it must be noted that the CIA has admitted its involvement in this unrest, with the sponsoring of business lockouts and anti-government media propaganda - which interestingly parallel the exact tactics used to attempt destabilisation of the current Venezuelan administration in the last four years), which culminated in the Christian Democrats breaking their coalition with Allende's party and joining the right-wing nationalists - together they held a majority in congress, but not the two thirds majority required to force allende to step down, and so they tried to undermine him with this motion that you have quoted, later used as justification by the Coup plotters. In actual fact, the only part of this document (which was of course drawn up by Allende's enemies, and makes no specific reference to any named events, and is a translation posted on a clearly extremist website, so Im still unconvinced of its wording) that relates to any sort of action against allende's administration is this -

'to likewise point out that by virtue of their responsibilities, their pledge of allegiance to the Constitution and to the laws they have served, and in the case of the ministers, by virtue of the nature of the institutions of which they are high-ranking officials and of Him whose name they invoked upon taking office, it is their duty to put an immediate end to all situations herein referred to that breach the Constitution and the laws of the land with the goal of redirecting government activity toward the path of Law and ensuring the constitutional order of our Nation and the essential underpinnings of democratic coexistence among Chileans;'

And this part was aimed at all the branches of government, not just the miltary - it was therefore clearly intended to undermine and embaress the government into backing down on some of its proposals, but to say that it is directly ordering a coup is a large leap of faith... especially as Im pretty sure that Pinochet didnt 'redirect government activity toward the path of Law' or ensure the 'constitutional order of [the] nation', and certainly didnt 'ensure democratic coexistence between Chileans', as his 17 years of Dictatorship made clear.

Still denying those 3000 dead as well Titus? Id like an explicit reply as to whether you deny that 3000 people were murdered by the Pinochet regime, and please post explicit evidence (ie not vague wording about constitutional disorder) to suggest anything like this level of barbarity took place under Allende - numbers of dead, etc.

You're the one who has claimed the 3000 figure so you provide the proof, it's impossible to prove a negative.

You're revisionist history on the true nature of Allende is laughable, he was a tyrant and died a tyrants fate. Pinochet was under orders from the Deputy of Chambers to preserve the Republic by any means necessary.

Pinochet served the Republic and this proof can be seen in the fact that Chile is firmly Democratic today while the likes of Cuba are still led by a tyrannical despot whose policies would have made Allende proud and in fact Allende did align himself with Castro.

While it is true that Pinochet perpetrated crimes they were equivalent to that of the leftist revolutionaries under the Allende regime and Pinochet did it to preserve the Republic not to destroy it like Allende set out to do.

As for you denying that you defend tyrants, well your approval of the Chavez regime speaks volumes. Chavez is a tyrant, he has cracked down on the press, and has instituted brutal repression of any dissentors, he has stolen land and created a program for the redistribution of wealth.

Simply put, Chavez has to go!
 
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Re: your analogy GYSgt, you cannot in any way compare the situation with a hypothetical purge of the Nazis, the majority of those killed were trade unionists, student leaders, peasants and academics.

Titus
The 3000 figure quoted as killed by the Pinochet regime is quoted very widely by a vast number of reliable news sources from all sides of the political spectrum, and I have seen no sources that refute this, in fact many say it is a vast underestimate. While I wasnt present for any of those killings I am inclined to believe what is universally accepted as historical truth by every source I have seen. I have not seen a single source describing executions ordered by Allende's government, and comparing Allende to Castro when he was democratically elected rather than a dictator seems ludicrous - especially when KGB sources soon discounted Allende as being a potential unwitting conduit for Soviet interests due to his commitment to peaceful transition to the ideals of socialism (look it up). You have not explained where in the tabled congressional motion Pinochet was given the green light to establish an 18 year dictatorship through military repression either -as I said, it called for all branches of government to resolve the situation (and Im still unconvinced by the veracity of the translation which only seems to appear on extremist fascist-sympathiser websites).
 
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Have you ever heard of Paraguay's 'terror archives', documents dating from the time of its dictatorship and its allegiance with other right-wing dictatorships in the region, including pinochet's Chile? It describes how 80000 left-wing trade-unionists, student activists, peasant leaders and dissenting academics/writers/musicians were murdered in the Southern Cone, as I say, including Chile, by the brutal methods of Operation Condor. You, as I say, are the true appeaser of tyrants, and a hypocritical fascist sympathiser. As you are obviously such an extremist, you probably dont think this was such a bad thing, and would like the same to happen in the US - it would probably be convenient to be rid of those who have different political beliefs, but most of us dont believe murder and torture are the right way of putting our viewpoints across.
 
If one examines The Mitrokhin Archive of documents taken from the KGB by a defector (again look it up), one can see how the KGB despaired of Allende's commitment to a peaceful transition to socialism, fearing that it would allow reactionary forces to regroup and retake the country (which actually turned out to be correct). Some tyrant. He suffered defeat due to being to soft on his opponents.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
And lest we forget that Hitler was ravidly un-Democratic and just as socialist as Stalin.

Pinochet was a Capitialist who was not out to destroy Democracy he was out to preserve it, that proof can be seen in the fact that Chile is a firmly Democratic state to this very day.

Pinochet preserved the Republic which Allende set out to destroy.


Pinochet... Pinochet, wasn't that the dictator who violated human rights in Chile, whom people mysteriously disappeared and that those unfortunate who didn't, were tortured and abused?

That Pinochet?
 
KidRocks said:
Pinochet... Pinochet, wasn't that the dictator who violated human rights in Chile, whom people mysteriously disappeared and that those unfortunate who didn't, were tortured and abused?

That Pinochet?

That would be the one. Clearly the people who always claim that their political opponents are making excuses for dictators, aren't above doing it themselves. :roll:
 
KidRocks said:
Pinochet... Pinochet, wasn't that the dictator who violated human rights in Chile, whom people mysteriously disappeared and that those unfortunate who didn't, were tortured and abused?

That Pinochet?

No I mean the Pinochet who was under orders by the Chilean Deputy of Chambers to save the Republic against the tyrant Allende and his leftists revolutionaries who set out to create a totalitarian Communist dictatorship.
 
Touchmaster said:
Re: your analogy GYSgt, you cannot in any way compare the situation with a hypothetical purge of the Nazis, the majority of those killed were trade unionists, student leaders, peasants and academics.

Titus
The 3000 figure quoted as killed by the Pinochet regime is quoted very widely by a vast number of reliable news sources from all sides of the political spectrum, and I have seen no sources that refute this, in fact many say it is a vast underestimate. While I wasnt present for any of those killings I am inclined to believe what is universally accepted as historical truth by every source I have seen. I have not seen a single source describing executions ordered by Allende's government, and comparing Allende to Castro when he was democratically elected rather than a dictator seems ludicrous - especially when KGB sources soon discounted Allende as being a potential unwitting conduit for Soviet interests due to his commitment to peaceful transition to the ideals of socialism (look it up). You have not explained where in the tabled congressional motion Pinochet was given the green light to establish an 18 year dictatorship through military repression either -as I said, it called for all branches of government to resolve the situation (and Im still unconvinced by the veracity of the translation which only seems to appear on extremist fascist-sympathiser websites).

You call usurping executive power and taking on legislative power for the executive against the Chilean Constitution, and arming leftist thug militias to squash and dissidence is a peaceful transition?

Did you ever read the resolution?

Allende was the tyrant Pinochet was under orders from the Deputy of Chambers to remove Allende from power for crimes against the Republic for attempting to create a totalitarian Communist dictarship.

You apologize for Allende when in fact it was Allende who was the tyrant not the other way around.
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
No I mean the Pinochet who was under orders by the Chilean Deputy of Chambers to save the Republic against the tyrant Allende and his leftists revolutionaries who set out to create a totalitarian Communist dictatorship.



Oh, that Pinochet, damn, another r-wing extremist who was just following orders.

Seig Heil!
 
Allende was the tyrant Pinochet was under orders from the Deputy of Chambers to remove Allende from power for crimes against the Republic for attempting to create a totalitarian Communist dictarship.

Trojan are you actually going to try and make a decent argument or you going to just keep repating this claim which has been refuted already?
 
KidRocks said:
Oh, that Pinochet, damn, another r-wing extremist who was just following orders.

Seig Heil!

Actually Hitler and Allende are nearly identical twins, both were National Socialists who once they gained power by a less than majority vote in a Democratic race, set out to destroy their Republics through inacting total control of the executive.

I wish their had been a Pinochet back in 1929 Germany, then WW2 would never have happened.
 
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