• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Can You Know God?

You haven't proven God doesn't exist. :p
I don't have to prove it. You are making a positive claim, so you need to prove your claim to be true. It isn't true because you claim that it is. Absent of any objective evidence of your claim of the supernatural, we revert to the idea that your claim isn't true.


Bertrand Russell's celestial teapot analogy.
British mathematician, philosopher, and atheist Bertrand Russell proposed his teapot analogy as a way of explaining where the burden of proof lies, particularly in debates about religion. Russell’s teapot is also known as the celestial teapot or the cosmic teapot.

In the teapot analogy, Russell asks to us to imagine a man claiming that there is a teapot orbiting the sun between Earth and Mars. The teapot is too small for us to see, and, since we can’t journey out into space (Russell wrote this in the 1950s), there’s no way to show that the teapot isn’t actually there. “Ah,” says Russell’s hypothetical man, “since you can’t prove the teapot isn’t there, you must assume that it is there.”

Of course, it’s patently ridiculous to claim that that we must believe in a teapot orbiting the sun simply because we have no means to prove it isn’t there. The burden of proof, Russell argues, is on the person claiming the teapot is there, since the default assumption is that no such teapot exists; the person claiming the existence of the teapot needs to provide positive evidence for us to believe his claim. He can’t just insist that we accept his belief as the default position.

Using the teapot analogy, Russell claimed that many religious people act as though belief in God should be the default assumption and that the burden of proof is on the atheist to prove that God does not exist. Russell rejected theism and claimed that atheism should be the natural starting point for reasoning out the existence of God, since God cannot be empirically verified (i.e., we cannot observe or touch God).

Russell’s teapot analogy says that, since we can’t prove God’s existence through observation, we should assume God doesn’t exist until given reason to believe otherwise. In other words, the burden of proof is on the religious (Christians, specifically) to prove that God exists, not on atheists to prove God does not exist.

The basic thrust of Russell’s teapot argument is correct: it’s impossible to prove a negative. That is to say, it’s impossible to prove that some object or phenomenon does not exist anywhere in the universe at any given point, as you’d need to have complete knowledge of every point in time and space to know so. That said, we can give reasons for believing something doesn’t exist. We have no reason to think matter would randomly arrange itself into a teapot. We know of no missions to space in which humans could have placed a teapot in orbit. Thus, if someone claims there is a teapot in orbit, we agree with Russell that the burden of proof is on that person to give us reasons to believe such a teapot exists.

 
I don't have to prove it. You are making a positive claim, so you need to prove your claim to be true.
That's where you're wrong. I don't have to prove anything to you. I only need to convince myself. The question was "How can you know God?" That question assumes God exists. Following that I gave an answer on the how. From there you only agreed with my answer, unwittingly.
It isn't true because you claim that it is. Absent of any objective evidence of your claim of the supernatural, we revert to the idea that your claim isn't true.


Bertrand Russell's celestial teapot analogy.


 
That's where you're wrong. I don't have to prove anything to you. I only need to convince myself. The question was "How can you know God?" That question assumes God exists. Following that I gave an answer on the how. From there you only agreed with my answer, unwittingly.
Convincing yourself is a self-delusion. That isn't proof of anything but your gullibility.
 
Convincing yourself is a self-delusion. That isn't proof of anything but your gullibility.
You're entitled to your opinion. Fortunately, I don't have to share it.
 
My own mother was a religious psychopath and didn't want me.
Well, that explains a lot...don't blame Jehovah because you had a terrible mother...
 
I think you do even though you won't admit it...
I am a secular Humanist. I never believed in the idea of god existing but I couldn't say so as a child/teen because I was severely punished for doing so.

The world will be a much better place when churches are converted into bars and art spaces and the Abramhaic regions are only mentioned in history class as equal to Jupiter, Ra, Thor, Vishnu, and Zeus. Don't make me wait for that day.

But it seems you did blame religion. I'm sorry you went through that.
I only hate the ignorance that defends and propagates religious beliefs.
 
I am a secular Humanist. I never believed in the idea of god existing but I couldn't say so as a child/teen because I was severely punished for doing so.

The world will be a much better place when churches are converted into bars and art spaces and the Abramhaic regions are only mentioned in history class as equal to Jupiter, Ra, Thor, Vishnu, and Zeus. Don't make me wait for that day.


I only hate the ignorance that defends and propagates religious beliefs.
I know what you claim you are...you hate people who abuse and misuse religious beliefs to hurt others...there is a difference in those people and what Jesus taught, true Christianity...
 
You haven't proven God doesn't exist. :p
A logical fallacy. One cannot proce a negative. The burden of proof lies on the one making the affirmative claim. As it stands, there is no evidence for any god/s.
 
You haven't proven God doesn't exist. :p

There is independently verifiable evidence of George Washington; none for gods of any kind. Making up an imaginary being does not require anyone to provide evidence that this made up being does not exist.
 
A logical fallacy. One cannot proce a negative. The burden of proof lies on the one making the affirmative claim. As it stands, there is no evidence for any god/s.
Putting aside, for the moment, that proving the existence of God is not the subject of this thread -- the question assumes existence -- whenever someone claims there is no God that is a positive claim. Thus it's the burden of the one making that claim to prove it. The mere presence of the word "no" doesn't make it any less a claim.
 
There is independently verifiable evidence of George Washington; none for gods of any kind. Making up an imaginary being does not require anyone to provide evidence that this made up being does not exist.
Hearsay evidence.
 
Putting aside, for the moment, that proving the existence of God is not the subject of this thread -- the question assumes existence -- whenever someone claims there is no God that is a positive claim. Thus it's the burden of the one making that claim to prove it. The mere presence of the word "no" doesn't make it any less a claim.
Yes, a declaration there is no god is a claim of certainty and subject to the burden of proof. Both affirmative claims either for or against the existence of god are logically indefensible.
 
Yes, a declaration there is no god is a claim of certainty and subject to the burden of proof. Both affirmative claims either for or against the existence of god are logically indefensible.
The subject of God's existence is one which science cannot prove or disprove, especially if said God is not part of the Universe. Thus "proving" its existence is a matter of philosophical discourse. There's nothing illogical in using the principle of causality to infer the existence of an intelligent designer of the Universe.
 
The subject of God's existence is one which science cannot prove or disprove, especially if said God is not part of the Universe. Thus "proving" its existence is a matter of philosophical discourse. There's nothing illogical in using the principle of causality to infer the existence of an intelligent designer of the Universe.
The issue is, many make declarative claims for god or that said god actively affects our reality. It's one thing to discuss god in a philosophical sense. But it's quite another to make such claims as fact. That incurs the burden of proof.
 
Yes...by taking in knowledge of God through His Word, the Bible...

"This means everlasting life,+ their coming to know you, the only true God,+ and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ." John 17:3
Jesus was left wing. I like Jesus
 
The issue is, many make declarative claims for god or that said god actively affects our reality. It's one thing to discuss god in a philosophical sense. But it's quite another to make such claims as fact. That incurs the burden of proof.
Yet many claims that were declared facts have only later to be determined untrue. Consider the claim that the earth is flat. At one time it was accepted as fact. Even the theory of BB has had modifications because the facts have changed/become more known. Facts are not written in stone. They can be fluid. Truth never changes.
 
Yet many claims that were declared facts have only later to be determined untrue. Consider the claim that the earth is flat. At one time it was accepted as fact. Even the theory of BB has had modifications because the facts have changed/become more known. Facts are not written in stone. They can be fluid. Truth never changes.
This is why evidence is necessary to support claims made. A declaration of fact is just an empty declaration without supporting evidence or proof. The BB theory is a solid scientific theory based on the supporting empirical evidence. New evidence might alter some details, but the theory itself is sound and has withstood scrutiny.
 
Jesus was left wing. He handed out free food and medicine and told people to pay taxes
How Did Jesus View Politics?

THE Gospel writers describe several events in Jesus’ ministry that brought him face-to-face with politics. For instance, shortly after Jesus’ baptism at about the age of 30, the Devil offered him the position of world ruler. Later in his ministry, a crowd wanted to make him their king. Still later, people tried to turn him into a political activist. How did Jesus react? Let us consider these events.

World ruler. The Gospels state that the Devil offered Jesus rulership over “all the kingdoms of the world.” Think of how much good Jesus could have done for suffering mankind if he had wielded the power of a world ruler! What politically oriented individual sincerely concerned with mankind’s advancement could resist such an offer? But Jesus refused it.—Matthew 4:8-11.

King. Many of Jesus’ contemporaries were desperate for a ruler who could solve their economic and political problems. Impressed by Jesus’ abilities, the people wanted Jesus to join the political process. What was his reaction? Gospel writer John states: “Jesus, knowing they were about to come and seize him to make him king, withdrew again into the mountain all alone.” (John 6:10-15) Clearly, Jesus refused to become involved in politics.

Political activist. Note what happened days before Jesus was put to death. Disciples of the Pharisees, who favored independence from the Roman Empire, joined by Herodians, members of a political party favoring Rome, approached Jesus. They wanted to force him to take a political position. They asked if the Jews should pay taxes to Rome.

Mark recorded Jesus’ response: “‘Why do you put me to the test? Bring me a denarius to look at.’ They brought one. And he said to them: ‘Whose image and inscription is this?’ They said to him: ‘Caesar’s.’ Jesus then said: ‘Pay back Caesar’s things to Caesar, but God’s things to God.’” (Mark 12:13-17) Commenting on the reason for Jesus’ response, the book Church and State—The Story of Two Kingdoms concludes: “He refused to act the part of a political messiah and carefully established both the boundary of Caesar and that of God.”

Problems such as poverty, corruption, and injustice did not leave Christ unmoved. In fact, the Bible shows that he was deeply touched by the pitiful state of the people around him. (Mark 6:33, 34) Still, Jesus did not start a campaign to rid the world of injustices, although some tried hard to get him embroiled in the controversial issues of the day.

Clearly, as these examples show, Jesus refused to get involved in political affairs. But what about Christians today? What should they do?
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2012322
 
Back
Top Bottom