Can pro life defend their position

[Gordy327]

He completely disregards that and it's been explained to him many times. He pretends he hasnt because he doesnt value the life of the woman, he doesnt think of her at all.

Inside the woman, the govt cannot protect or act on the unborn without removing her right to consent to her own life and bodily autonomy, without violating many of her Const rights. Once born ("outside") the woman, the govt and society can protect or act on the unborn without risking her life, her health, or her rights.​

But over and over, he dishonestly pretends he hasnt seen this before. Nor will he address it.

He can't even address or explain the "value" of the unborn. Nevermind expecting any consideration whatsoever for the woman herself. It's basically a fetus obsession.

 

[Gordy327]

so before birth its dead ? its not a living human being ? birth is the start of life and thus the start of value - that's your argument ?

Before birth, it's little more than a gestational parasite. What's the "value" on that?

 

[jaeger19]

you go first

Why? My premise does not depend on “ value of life”

Your argument seems to be all about value of life.
Why can’t you defend your own position?

It’s kinda hard to believe you “ value life” when your response to abortion laws causing more abortions , more maternal deaths and more infant deaths is “ meh the numbers are what they are”

And it’s hard to believe you “ value life” when you cannot explain why you value it .

Again :
So explain why a day old baby is valuable.
Explain its value.

Let’s hear it

 

[stealthycat]

"Most societies." Let's run with that. The Constitution (and its interpreter, SCOTUS) does not recognize any rights for the unborn and the majority of Americans support elective abortion (for other than medical reasons.) On a broader scale, we have this:

Universal Declaration of Human Rights​

​

Article 1​

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.​

So your "appeal to authority" doesnt work. Do you have any legal or moral justification for denying women the much safer medical procedure of abortion? It cant be "because human life has value" because you cant even quantify that and then you were quite willing to sacrifice the unborn in compromises earlier.

so you're ok with hospitals denying prenatal care - its not a baby right? there is no reason for fetal surgeries - its not a living human right? Fetal protection laws ... ridiculous right? why have them ?

you probably think its so stupid for people to get excited about pregnancy and babies or for pregnant women to watch their foods, take vitamins, no smoking/drugs etc .... its not a living human baby in there, why do they care?

the US Constitution doesn't specifically mention a lot of things .... what if the Constitution was changed, would you change your mind/opinion ? If not, then don't use it as part of your pillars

 

[Lursa]

so before birth its dead ? its not a living human being ? birth is the start of life and thus the start of value - that's your argument ?

No one said it isnt alive. That's biological status and classification, Homo sapiens. It has nothing to do with value or rights. Science recognizes no rights or value for any species.

 

[quip]

so before birth its dead ? its not a living human being ? birth is the start of life and thus the start of value - that's your argument ?

No.
That's your strawman.

 

[Gordy327]

Why? My premise does not depend on “ value of life”

Your argument seems to be all about value of life.
Why can’t you defend your own position?

I'd say because it's illogical. The fact that he cannot even explain "value", which is the crux of his argument, demonstrates how weak his argument really is. It's based on nothing more than his feelings. Nothing rational or objective.

 

[stealthycat]

Stop with the dishonest debate tactics and deflection! You're the one making assertions or claims of value, so the onus is on YOU to explain or prove it! I'm not making your so called argument for you!

What makes it valuable in the first place, before or after? What's the value?

you tell me why life isn't valuable - go ahead, explain it, I'm all ears

but you won't, and I know it and you know it .......

 

[Lursa]

so you're ok with hospitals denying prenatal care - its not a baby right? there is no reason for fetal surgeries - its not a living human right? Fetal protection laws ... ridiculous right? why have them ?

you probably think its so stupid for people to get excited about pregnancy and babies or for pregnant women to watch their foods, take vitamins, no smoking/drugs etc .... its not a living human baby in there, why do they care?

the US Constitution doesn't specifically mention a lot of things .... what if the Constitution was changed, would you change your mind/opinion ? If not, then don't use it as part of your pillars

Oh my! More questions! And more hiding from directly answering or responding. I didnt read past the first sentence. You have many questions to answer...try doing that first...debates are supposed to move forward in a linear fashion...not like ants in a washing machine...willy nilly wherever you think will serve you best to hide behind.

Helpful hints: Address statements with question marks=?, directly counter statements you dont agree with.

 

[stealthycat]

No.
That's your strawman.

oh its not a strawman

you and I know its the same baby

 

[stealthycat]

Oh my! More questions! And more hiding from directly answering or responding. I didnt read past the first sentence. You have many questions to answer...try doing that first...debates are supposed to move forward in a linear fashion...not like ants in a washing machine...willy nilly wherever you think will serve you best to hide behind.

questions you can't answer because everything I listed? you want all that ... why? because the mother and unborn NEED it

the living human unborn needs it .... the unborn baby needs all those things

 

[stealthycat]

I'd say because it's illogical. The fact that he cannot even explain "value", which is the crux of his argument, demonstrates how weak his argument really is. It's based on nothing more than his feelings. Nothing rational or objective.

nor can you explain your "value" .... see that?

give us yours - tell us all how invaluable human life is, explain it in detail .... but I don't think you will

 

[Lursa]

questions you can't answer because everything I listed? you want all that ... why? because the mother and unborn NEED it

the living human unborn needs it .... the unborn baby needs all those things

Need what? What does the unborn "need" more than the woman? What does it "need" at her sacrifice and expense and consent as an individual?

 

[Gordy327]

so you're ok with hospitals denying prenatal care - its not a baby right? there is no reason for fetal surgeries

Prenatal care is as much for the woman gestating it as it is for the gestational parasite. A woman does not have to seek prenatal care at all. But if she chooses to, then it's likely she wants to continue the pregnancy. It's all about what the woman wants.

its not a living human right?

Whomever said that? Whether it's living or not is not the issue. Neither is it relevant to the issue.

Fetal protection laws ... ridiculous right? why have them ?

I have asked the same question. Fetal protection laws are ridiculous and there's no rational or legal basis to have them, the same with abortion restrictions.

you probably think its so stupid for people to get excited about pregnancy and babies

Many certainty become emotional and irrational about it.

or for pregnant women to watch their foods, take vitamins, no smoking/drugs etc .... its not a living human baby in there, why do they care?

That assumes the pregnant woman wants to continue a pregnancy and have a healthy a child or be healthy themselves as best as possible.

the US Constitution doesn't specifically mention a lot of things .... what if the Constitution was changed, would you change your mind/opinion ? If not, then don't use it as part of your pillars

It does specifically mention that a person with rights must be born. Therefore, gestational contents have neither rights or personhood.

 

[Gordy327]

nor can you explain your "value" .... see that?

give us yours - tell us all how invaluable human life is, explain it in detail .... but I don't think you will

Again, why would I? I'm not the one arguing value here, much less the "value" of myself. It's not even a factor in my arguments. That's all you. Why don't you explain the value of human life, since that is your assertion!

 

[Gordy327]

you tell me why life isn't valuable - go ahead, explain it, I'm all ears

but you won't, and I know it and you know it .......

Specify where I ever said or claimed life isn't valuable! You said it's valuable. So prove it! Explain the "value" of life!

 

[quip]

oh its not a strawman

you and I know its the same baby

Reread your nonsense post then get back to me.

 

[Gordy327]

oh its not a strawman

you and I know its the same baby

Not a baby (neonate) until it's born.

questions you can't answer because everything I listed? you want all that ... why? because the mother and unborn NEED it

the living human unborn needs it .... the unborn baby needs all those things

Says the one who won't answer the question, what is the value of life? Yeah, your in no position to call out anyone for not answering questions, much less have any credibility for your arguments.

 

[Gordy327]

Oh my! More questions! And more hiding from directly answering or responding.

I'm sensing a repeating pattern here.

 

[stealthycat]

Need what? What does the unborn "need" more than the woman?

why just the woman? why can't a hospital say "hey, that's not a living human, we've not spending money on that !" (its not valuable) why can't our judicial system just realize when there is a murder of a pregnant woman its just one - why have penalties for killing a non alive, not valuable unborn? Every law we have protect the unborn doesn't it ? except one

What does it "need" at her sacrifice and expense and consent as an individual?

because she chose actions that created a human life - if you're going to toss away responsibility then don't stop at birth - be like Gordy and kill 'em at any age, right ?

 

[stealthycat]

Specify where I ever said or claimed life isn't valuable! You said it's valuable. So prove it! Explain the "value" of life!

you ask a lot of questions

you sound emotional today

 

[Gordy327]

why just the woman? why can't a hospital say "hey, that's not a living human, we've not spending money on that !" (its not valuable)

The hospital wouldn't be spending anything. It's paid for by the patient's insurance or out of pocket. But if cost is a factor, abortion is far cheaper and safer.

why can't our judicial system just realize when there is a murder of a pregnant woman its just one - why have penalties for killing a non alive, not valuable unborn? Every law we have protect the unborn doesn't it ? except one

I agree, such laws should not exist. There is no legal reason for them. Those laws are just knee jerk emotional responses or derived.

because she chose actions that created a human life - if you're going to toss away responsibility then don't stop at birth - be like Gordy and kill 'em at any age, right ?

And she can choose actions to end that "life" too. It's her body and bodily resources being used to support that "life." And legal precedent establishes that no one can be compelled to have their body used to support another. And where did I ever say "kill them at any age?" That's just another lie!

you ask a lot of questions

And you answer none, which says a lot about you, your lack of credibility, and the inherent weakness of your argument.

you sound emotional today

Obvioys Projection. Especially given the hysterics evident in your posts.

 

[Lursa]

why just the woman? why can't a hospital say "hey, that's not a living human, we've not spending money on that !" (its not valuable) why can't our judicial system just realize when there is a murder of a pregnant woman its just one - why have penalties for killing a non alive, not valuable unborn? Every law we have protect the unborn doesn't it ? except one

More questions? Holy cow, lol. Please answer mine before asking more of your own.

It's hard to believe your posts can get more desperate each time...but they do.

because she chose actions that created a human life - if you're going to toss away responsibility then don't stop at birth - be like Gordy and kill 'em at any age, right ?

We've been thru this before. We dont withhold safer medical treatment from people for having accidents while participating in legal, socially acceptable activities. Like skiing or driving. Do we? Yes or no?

If you want to claim abortion is different, you'll have to demonstrate that abortion is wrong. Which...you havent. And the majority of Americans, the Const/SCOTUS, and the Universal Declaration I posted all indicate a huge number of people on Earth dont believe it is.

 

[stealthycat]

We've been thru this before. We dont withhold safer medical treatment from people for having accidents while participating in legal, socially acceptable activities. Like skiing or driving. Do we? Yes or no?

people ? we're talking unborn's who have no value, no rights that don't deserve anything from anybody

absolutely "withhold" if it saves a hospital money - there isn't any reason to "give" ... the unborn isn't valuable is it ? I mean .. unless you think it is ??

If you want to claim abortion is different, you'll have to demonstrate that abortion is wrong. Which...you havent. And the majority of Americans, the Const/SCOTUS, and the Universal Declaration I posted all indicate a huge number of people on Earth dont believe it is.

killing innocent human life is wrong

we don't kill because someone is poor, has a disability, is the wrong color of skin ... we don't kill them because they're in the way or because they keep someone from doing something ... I think you'll agree there are very few places on the planet that allows killing of innocent living humans

an unborn baby is an innocent living human - that's a 100% fact - and its barbaric and should be banned everywhere

Roe is dead - never thought I'd see that in my life. Now, we have to work on children/schools, get a new generation of kids to value human life so when they grow up and replace the people of the Roe generation, they'll do better and ban killing unborn life once and for all

ya'll have a great Christmas with your families and hopefully remember why tomorrow is what it is

 

[Lursa]

people ? we're talking unborn's who have no value, no rights that don't deserve anything from anybody

Nope, we're discussing denying women a much safer medical procedure. That is the topic and you are expected to defend your position.

So...address what I wrote directly. Why didnt you? Can you or not?

absolutely "withhold" if it saves a hospital money - there isn't any reason to "give" ... the unborn isn't valuable is it ? I mean .. unless you think it is ??

Well you have yet to answer that question so it's pretty funny that you try to use it as an argument. Please provide that value.

killing innocent human life is wrong

Who says? What authority that Americans are obligated to follow?

we don't kill because someone is poor, has a disability, is the wrong color of skin ... we don't kill them because they're in the way or because they keep someone from doing something ... I think you'll agree there are very few places on the planet that allows killing of innocent living humans

None of those people you listed are inside a person causing her harm and pain and suffering, risking her life.

an unborn baby is an innocent living human - that's a 100% fact - and its barbaric and should be banned everywhere

Your opinion, as yet unsupported by anything but your feelings.

Roe is dead - never thought I'd see that in my life. Now, we have to work on children/schools, get a new generation of kids to value human life so when they grow up and replace the people of the Roe generation, they'll do better and ban killing unborn life once and for all

I know...Dobbs has enabled states to allow women to "murder their baybees." Since state after state is voting to keep abortion legal...maybe it's ok that RvW was overturned, right?