Can Anyone Define What a "Living Wage" is to me?

[AlabamaPaul]

Thought experiment: 12 workers; 10 jobs. How does it make it harder for the 2 dweebs who will not get the job, if the 10 who do make more or less?

You're assuming the two would need a "job" in order sell a service to a consumer, and that's not necessarily so as those who might become employed may have excess consumption capability...

 

[ttwtt78640]

Thought experiment: 12 workers; 10 jobs. How does it make it harder for the 2 dweebs who will not get the job, if the 10 who do make more or less?

If the pay is low then turnover will be higher making the wait much shorter. If the pay is high then those 10 jobs will all be outsourced (or automated) making the wait very long indeed.

 

[Bonzai]

Individuals should only expect earn enough to purchase an amount equal to the value they actually provide to the the buyer of their services. Minimum wage only tends to make it harder for those with little or no skills the ability to enter the market, especially in a time where there is already an excess of labor in some areas of the economy...

We have an excess of labor in America because both the state governments and the national government have abdicated their positions as overseers of whether employers are employing individuals legally qualified to work here.......................

 

[AlabamaPaul]

I've heard that argument before. I don't buy it. Setting a minimum wage merely prevents business owners from determining the minimum amount they think they could pay and still demand maximum effort out of some poor slob desperate enough to take it. Eliminating minimum wage has no effect on the "excess of labor in some areas" because the employer will still pick whoever they think can get the job done, regardless. They just get paid less and the employer gets more profit.

No, the potential employee is the one that chooses to accept or reject any offer made by an employer...

 

[polgara]

Yet it is our social justice and fundamental transformation that we were promised. Yes he did!

Hi ttwtt: :2wave:

Well, I doubt there are many who don't see with their own eyes that there are those who are trying very hard to see that we are socially and fundamentally transformed. The big problem seems to be ... to what end?

 

[AlabamaPaul]

We have an excess of labor in America because both the state governments and the national government have abdicated their positions as overseers of whether employers are employing individuals legally qualified to work here.......................

What we have are governments (federal, state, and local to some extent) trying to run an economy of which they have no understanding...

 

[Captain Adverse]

No, the potential employee is the one that chooses to accept or reject any offer made by an employer...

BUZZZ! Wrong! The "potential employee" is whichever one among the pool of those willing to work for crap wages that the EMPLOYER chooses to make the offer to.

It's a buyers market as long as there are more people looking for work than employment has available.

 

[Sisyphus]

I'm trying to answer your questions as directly as possible. The attempt was made to put forth some ridiculous situation, and I responded appropriately. Now, if you want to move the conversation to a closed economy, we can do that...

Let's cut to the chase Pauly: you're a supply-sider. Really you are. Get out there and do something, and good stuff happens. So let's can the "supply-side" characterization. What are we really talking about? Git er dun!!! Go getters not only do themselves well but make us all better off!!! Yippee fur dem goo gitters!!!!!

Hmmm? Let's parse. Anything not being done? You know: dusting the suite of offices for Ron Paul so he can warm a seat in the lower house? Or putting a steering wheel on the new Chev granny want to buy? Or perhaps them screw-on thingies that hold lamp shades onto the harps not making it onto the shelves at Lowes? What in tarnation ain't being done that we need more Get 'Er Done????? Name me one thing. Anything!!!!!

Now to the demand side (we lefty, red, commie-loving nincompoops), who say folks need more money to buy stuff: anyone need to sell anything? You know; perhaps a company out there needs a customer? Just one maybe?

Whadaya think?

 

[Sisyphus]

If the pay is low then turnover will be higher making the wait much shorter. If the pay is high then those 10 jobs will all be outsourced (or automated) making the wait very long indeed.

Still 10 jobs and 2 sucking wind.

 

[AlabamaPaul]

BUZZZ! Wrong! The "potential employee" is whichever one among the pool of those willing to work for crap wages that the EMPLOYER chooses to make the offer to.

If no one chose to accept the offered wage, the employer would either decide to increase hours for current employees, automate, or raise the offered wage to a level that would be acceptable to the pool of available workers...

 

[ttwtt78640]

Hi ttwtt: :2wave:

Well, I doubt there are many who don't see with their own eyes that there are those who are trying very hard to see that we are socially and fundamentally transformed. The big problem seems to be ... to what end?

From each according to their ability (to pay taxes), to each according to their need (for free stuff). In a democracy you simply need fewer voters that pay taxes than voters that get free stuff - game over.

 

[Arbo]

OK so your full of BS and cant back up your "we support the poor" comment and montra. GOT IT.

So you refuse to form your question in proper english?

Very well than. None of your spin is needed.

 

[Sisyphus]

You're assuming the two would need a "job" in order sell a service to a consumer, and that's not necessarily so as those who might become employed may have excess consumption capability...

No. Try to stay with me Pauly. I'm saying what you pay the 10 ain't having no impact whatsoever on the two dweebs nobody wants to hire. Your postulate that it'll make it harder for dweebs to get work is wrong and the epitome of abject ignorance. (fact not opinion.)

 

[AlabamaPaul]

Let's cut to the chase Pauly: you're a supply-sider. Really you are. Get out there and do something, and good stuff happens. So let's can the "supply-side" characterization. What are we really talking about? Git er dun!!! Go getters not only do themselves well but make us all better off!!! Yippee fur dem goo gitters!!!!!

Hmmm? Let's parse. Anything not being done? You know: dusting the suite of offices for Ron Paul so he can warm a seat in the lower house? Or putting a steering wheel on the new Chev granny want to buy? Or perhaps them screw-on thingies that hold lamp shades onto the harps not making it onto the shelves at Lowes? What in tarnation ain't being done that we need more Get 'Er Done????? Name me one thing. Anything!!!!!

Now to the demand side (we lefty, red, commie-loving nincompoops), who say folks need more money to buy stuff: anyone need to sell anything? You know; perhaps a company out there needs a customer? Just one maybe?

Whadaya think?

I don't pigeonhole myself into any particular category, but I do hold the view that when individuals produce something others desire for which to exchange their output, the exchange is mutually beneficial...

 

[polgara]

We have an excess of labor in America because both the state governments and the national government have abdicated their positions as overseers of whether employers are employing individuals legally qualified to work here.......................

Good evening, Bonz! :2wave:

That is a good point! If employers are bound to obey E-check, or pay fines, do many still escape scrutiny?

 

[Sisyphus]

I don't pigeonhole myself into any particular category, but I do hold the view that when individuals produce something others desire for which to exchange their output, the exchange is mutually beneficial...

Anything from the supply-side in need of supplyin'? You know, get 'er done stuff ain't bein' done and such?

 

[polgara]

From each according to their ability (to pay taxes), to each according to their need (for free stuff). In a democracy you simply need fewer voters that pay taxes than voters that get free stuff - game over.

Excellent post! :thumbs:

 

[AlabamaPaul]

Anything from the supply-side in need of supplyin'? You know, get 'er done stuff ain't bein' done and such?

I'm sensing some hostility... :roll:

 

[Captain Adverse]

If no one chose to accept the offered wage, the employer would either decide to increase hours for current employees, automate, or raise the offered wage to a level that would be acceptable to the pool of available workers...

Automation takes time and costs money, and you end up paying even more for skilled technicians to keep it working. If the employer was willing to raise wages from the start in order to attract good workers, he would have no complaint about a minimum "living" wage. If he decreased hours for current employees, he may end up with fewer trained employees and having to deal with more unskilled ones. That's his problem.

If the employer is so cheap he cannot bear a minimum wage requirement allowing workers a chance to LIVE off of their earnings without resort to welfare, food stamps, or a second/third job and a 15 -18 hour workday...maybe whats "good for (his) business is NOT good for the country." More power to him.

 

[ttwtt78640]

Excellent post! :thumbs:

Thank you.

 

[Bonzai]

What we have are governments (federal, state, and local to some extent) trying to run an economy of which they have no understanding...

According to birth rate and legal immigration figures, the US should have been experiencing a labor shortage for the last 30 years..................Can you tell what wrong with that picture ?..............................

 

[AlabamaPaul]

Automation takes time and costs money, and you end up paying even more for skilled technicians to keep it working. If the employer was willing to raise wages from the start in order to attract good workers, he would have no complaint about a minimum "living" wage. If he decreased hours for current employees, he may end up with fewer trained employees and having to deal with more unskilled ones. That's his problem.

If the employer is so cheap he cannot bear a minimum wage requirement allowing workers a chance to LIVE off of their earnings without resort to welfare, food stamps, or a second/third job and a 15 -18 hour workday...maybe whats "good for (his) business is NOT good for the country." More power to him.

Do you realize how many small business owners take no wage in the first years of beginning the business? Minimum wage affects most jobs not just those of some major corporations, and to think that an increase would not make any business consider other alternatives is like sticking your head in the sand...

 

[AlabamaPaul]

According to birth rate and legal immigration figures, the US should have been experiencing a labor shortage for the last 30 years..................Can you tell what wrong with that picture ?..............................

Free, not fair, trade agreements? Oh, good evening BTW...

 

[Sisyphus]

I'm sensing some hostility... :roll:

I'm sensing stupidty. Meanwhile, aside from senses and such, anything ain't being supplied, you know of?

 

[Captain Adverse]

Do you realize how many small business owners take no wage in the first years of beginning the business? Minimum wage affects most jobs not just those of some major corporations, and to think that an increase would not make any business consider other alternatives is like sticking your head in the sand...

I am aware of the problems with starting and trying to maintain a small business. Get busy and have kids who can slave for you, and make sure their kids can too. Lot's of Asian, Indian, and South-east Asian immigrant families do this, very successfuly. That way you only have to worry about providing for your family out of their labor, and not have to depend on someone else for it.