Can A White Person Judge Racism In America?

[Sig]

You can't have a discussion about something when one of the people doesn't even know what that something is.

...which is why I keep pushing you for a definition. I am testing your understanding of the subject at hand. A cut & paste definition out of Websters' dictionary does not pass.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

What she said was that it is "debateable whether [the experience of racism by white people wherein white people are the victims of racism] is of the same depth, degree or chronic nature as is experienced by minorities."

It is a thoroughly idiotic statement on multiple dimensions.

And your comment did nothing to contradict it. Moreover, it's not idiotic. It's perfectly reasonable to question whether or not people can fully appreciate others' experiences. With regards to racism in particular, it's perfectly reasonable to question whether or not a white person can fully understand living in a society as the minority with a significant amount of institutional racism directed at your race while also dealing with individual experiences with racism.

 

[JMJ]

You can't have a discussion about something when one of the people doesn't even know what that something is.

You discuss it, then agree to what definition to use during the debate.

 

[JMJ]

...which is why I keep pushing you for a definition. I am testing your understanding of the subject at hand. A cut & paste definition out of Websters' dictionary does not pass.

Why not, what did you want it to be?

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Do you even know what a strawman is?

Yeah, it's distorting/misrepresenting a person's arguments which is pretty much all you've done here, but since you don't even know the definition of racism, I wouldn't expect you to know the definition of strawman either.

As to the definition of racism, I'm still waiting for your definition, in your own words.

LOL. I gave you the dictionary definition, that's my definition. I don't believe in pulling definitions out of my ass. I believe in using the actual definitions of words.

 

[ThePlayDrive]

Clearly, I would like to hear YOUR definition of racism, even if you do pull it of your ass (which I half expect anyway).

I gave you my definition, it's the same definition everybody (except for you) uses when they refer to racism.

 

[Sig]

And your comment did nothing to contradict it. Moreover, it's not idiotic. It's perfectly reasonable to question whether or not people can fully appreciate others' experiences. With regards to racism in particular, it's perfectly reasonable to question whether or not a white person can fully understand living in a society as the minority with a significant amount of institutional racism directed at your race while also dealing with individual experiences with racism.

Now, you're retreating behind the obvious with her. Of course, white people cannot really know what it is like to be black, just as black people cannot really know what its like to be white.

Is this really the point you two are trying to make? Say it isn't so.

As to the "fully understand living in a society as the minority with a significant amount of institutional racism directed at your race while also dealing with individual experiences with racism" leg of your argument, I would say that it depends on the particular white person of which you are speaking, and that it is appallingly racist to suggest that all white people have comparable experiences with being the majority or minority (recall my example of the white kid going to a predominantly black high school), being the victim of institutional racism (ie: Affirmative Action and EEO policy which callously ignores the socioeconomic condition of poor whites), and the myriad of examples where whites are individual victims of vicious racist assaults, many of which are deliberately underreported by mass media news agencies in order to advance the political agenda of their controlling stockholder (more institutional racism).

 

[Sig]

I gave you my definition, it's the same definition everybody (except for you) uses when they refer to racism.

No, you gave me Webster's definition, and it is NOT the definition that everybody uses when they refer to racism. Indeed, far too many people define racism as "prejudice plus power." Like Webster, they are also wrong.

 

[JMJ]

No, you gave me Webster's definition, and it is NOT the definition that everybody uses when they refer to racism. Indeed, far too many people define racism as "prejudice plus power." Like Webster, they are also wrong.

What is racism?

 

[Sig]

What is racism?

I gave my definition a few pages back.

 

[JMJ]

I gave my definition a few pages back.

OK... so, does it make the term racism increasingly irrelevant by being overly inclusive?

 

[teamosil]

And thanks for flying off the handle and calling me racist, it certainly underlines the foreboding feeling I get from the Dems.

You can't possibly put that on me. I made a post about how I don't think the tea party is racist and you replied by blurting out a laundry list of racist accusations about black people... Take responsibility for the things you say, don't try to blame other people for things you yourself do.

 

[JMJ]

You can't possibly put that on me. I made a post about how I don't think the tea party is racist and you replied by blurting out a laundry list of racist accusations about black people... Take responsibility for the things you say, don't try to blame other people for things you yourself do.

No, I accused urban politicians of oppressing minorities and poor people by promising them things, and then requiring them to participate by supporting those politicians or marginalizing those who don't. It is not because black people are stupid that they are subject to the man, the system is rigged so that choosing against liberal politicians results in punishment of marginalization. Voting for liberal politicians keeps the money on, clearly, but the money has clearly failed in a very racist way, and that cannot possibly be blamed on conservatives.

 

[teamosil]

And people seem to see a lot more racism than is actually present. Hell, the valedictorian of my high school was a black girl who received millions of dollars in scholarships and was accepted to several prestigious schools. No one in school treated her like she was dumb just because she was black because she was more than capable of showing anyone who tried that she was really intelligent.

I have seen very few actual incidents of racism in my life

Unless you've like spent years living with black people for the bulk of every day, or you've done an exhaustive series of studies and experiments or something, I don't really see how your personal experiences could be a sound basis to evaluate a big sociological question like this. Your individual perceptions of what is racism and what isn't are, like everybody else's fallible, your exposure is limited, etc. Just trying to guesstimate it from one individual's perceptions of their own experiences is a very poor methodology. To evaluate the extent of racism you need to look at the actual statistical data and studies and whatnot.

And maybe part of the reason that we still have as much racism as we do is because instead of trying to make things better we are teaching some to be victims

You hear this from folks on the right a lot, but to be totally honest with you, it just sounds silly to me. Like are you envisioning that there are like classes for black people that tell them that they are victims or something? Black people live entire lives man. They are capable of processing information about how they are treated and whatnot just like anybody else. If you just don't tell them that racism exists, what do you think would happen when they encountered it? They would just not notice it? Or if you told them that racism existed, and they never encountered it, would they just make up memories of it happening or something? That just doesn't make a lick of sense to me... It's like, if I told you that you were 18 feet tall, would you just go through life thinking you were 18 feet tall?

and others become resentful because they are being told they are insensitive to racism

Most white people never get accused of being racially insensitive, but some white people seem to get accused of it frequently from a wide range of different people. To me that seems more consistent with something those people are doing wrong than something the people accusing them are doing wrong. If it was the accusers, it would be happening to all of us. But it isn't. Not by a longshot. It only happens to, what, maybe 10% of white people? So why is that? Why is it always those same 10%?

 

[JMJ]

Why should I support a political party that runs the most segregated and clearly racist schools in the country. Is it not my responsibility to condemn them for running racist schools? To hold them accountable for the schools they run? To ignore their pleas for money which never improves the schools but significantly strengthens their political authority in those areas? Yes, clearly, it is.

 

[teamosil]

No, I accused urban politicians of oppressing minorities and poor people by promising them things, and then requiring them to participate by supporting those politicians or marginalizing those who don't. It is not because black people are stupid that they are subject to the man, the system is rigged so that choosing against liberal politicians results in punishment of marginalization. Voting for liberal politicians keeps the money on, clearly, but the money has clearly failed in a very racist way, and that cannot possibly be blamed on conservatives.

Again, you said:

what the Tea Party sees, and what conservatives see, is that we have been exceptionally generous with poor blacks. They manage to elect people who can't operate a school on six times the amount of money as a rural school.

You're laying out the same old arguments for denying black people the vote that white supremacists have always laid out... You're just repeating the same arguments that they've been making since the 1800s. There is no way you can convince me that you honestly don't understand why that is racist...

Anyways, your post isn't inconsistent with what I'm saying. I do acknowledge that some Tea Partiers are white supremacists. But I definitely think it is the minority and I don't think it is fair to characterize the whole based on their views.

 

[Sig]

OK... so, does it make the term racism increasingly irrelevant by being overly inclusive?

Which definition?

 

[JMJ]

Which definition?

The one you gave that I didn't bother to go dig up.

 

[Sig]

The one you gave that I didn't bother to go dig up.

Bother to dig it up first, then I will answer your question (if you still have one).

 

[JMJ]

Again, you said:



You're laying out the same old arguments for denying black people the vote that white supremacists have always laid out... You're just repeating the same arguments that they've been making since the 1800s. There is no way you can convince me that you honestly don't understand why that is racist...

Anyways, your post isn't inconsistent with what I'm saying. I do acknowledge that some Tea Partiers are white supremacists. But I definitely think it is the minority and I don't think it is fair to characterize the whole based on their views.

That was poorly worded. The use of the word 'they' is only remotely accurate for the actions of the Tea Party and conservatives in general, as they only manage to harm poor urbanites by giving money to the area politicians who actually make the decisions.

We've spent 20 years now over paying for under delivering school systems that only seem to entrench that political party deeper. I think continuing to vote for education funding for urban schools is incredibly immoral and racist.

I'm sorry I made it sound like the Tea Party was getting racist policies enacted in cities. While I assume that is true, they no doubt did not do so on purpose, but rather allowed excessive education giving to corrupt urban politics.

 

[JMJ]

Bother to dig it up first, then I will answer your question (if you still have one).

I assumed that your definition of racism wasn't so convoluted that asking for it would be too burdensome. I prefer to use simpler definitions though.

 

[Sig]

I assumed that your definition of racism wasn't so convoluted that asking for it would be too burdensome. I prefer to use simpler definitions though.

It's not convoluted at all. In fact, it is the natural intuitive understanding of what racism actually is, and is easily comprehended by all people, everywhere, once they "unlearn what they have learned."

 

[teamosil]

That was poorly worded. The use of the word 'they' is only remotely accurate for the actions of the Tea Party and conservatives in general, as they only manage to harm poor urbanites by giving money to the area politicians who actually make the decisions.

We've spent 20 years now over paying for under delivering school systems that only seem to entrench that political party deeper. I think continuing to vote for education funding for urban schools is incredibly immoral and racist.

I'm sorry I made it sound like the Tea Party was getting racist policies enacted in cities. While I assume that is true, they no doubt did not do so on purpose, but rather allowed excessive education giving to corrupt urban politics.

Er what? "They" referred to black people in that quote, not tea partiers... Read your post again.

As I understand it, your position includes the following three points:

1) Black people have leached off white people long enough
2) Black people are so bad at voting that they end up electing incompetent leaders who are not capable of even basic governmental tasks
3) The government should stop providing schools in areas where black people live

Am I understanding correctly?

 

[JMJ]

It's not convoluted at all. In fact, it is the natural intuitive understanding of what racism actually is, and is easily comprehended by all people, everywhere, once they "unlearn what they have learned."

Why can't you just put it down, this thread it 35 pages long!

 

[JMJ]

Er what? "They" referred to black people in that quote, not tea partiers... Read your post again.

As I understand it, your position includes the following three points:

1) Black people have leached off white people long enough
2) Black people are so bad at voting that they end up electing incompetent leaders who are not capable of even basic governmental tasks
3) The government should stop providing schools in areas where black people live

Am I understanding correctly?

I said:
"what the Tea Party sees, and what conservatives see, is that we have been exceptionally generous with poor blacks. They manage to"

I suppose I may have meant poor blacks. Let's suppose it does, and they keep voting for people who support racist schools. I think that would still not count as racist.

Or maybe you don't think the schools are racist?