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Changing the subject to the behavior of Christians 200 or 1200 years ago is not understanding. It is merely an excuse. Diminishing the extent to which certain beliefs are held is not understanding. It is merely dishonest. Advancing the same rationales as Islamists to justify their actions is not understanding. It is merely useful idiocy.
THose who claim to "understand" might be better served by attempting to actually understand instead of simply deciding ahead of time that they must defend and then spending the entirety of their postings doing so no matter what.
many in particular reply to are those who judge all Muslims or Islam by those actions and are usually the first ones drooling at the idea of more material to attack Islam with
David Cameron tells Muslim Britain: stop tolerating extremists | Politics | The Guardian
Well done Cameron ... for once :thumbs:
I'm more interested to find out why exactly so many people are attracted to such a twisted ideology in the first place. Crazy ideas and ideologies abound everywhere in the world, but extremist/fundamentalist/radical Islam derives its power from a certain degree of popular support. Nobody seems to know why people are attracted to it in the first place.
Read what Carl Jung has to say about Nazism and there are some pretty strong parralells
Which would be pretty pointless, this is "Debate Politics" not 'state the obvious and go away' what is up for disscussion is not whether these actions are moral but why they occur. To explain or understand these actions is not to excuse them.
*sigh*. Yes, I support terrorists deep down, I worship Osama Bin Laden and I'm planning a terrorist attack right now and I dance naked to the tune of Hitler
-Grins while cupping my hand to my ear-.......... you know if you listen really close … I think I can hear that Hitler tune playing right now
Caught me out have you? :lamo
No one ever says they are not scumbags.
But there is always those few posters who post some of those gems I have highlighted or claim it is somehow something all Muslims support which starts the arguments in many of the Islam-related threads.
Not whether Islamists are good or bad
Of course we should, whether that person is a Moslem cleric, an extremist Christian preacher, or a Dutch neo-fascist. If you're coming to preach hatred, you're not welcome.We must ban preachers of hate from coming to our countries.
Who could object to this?We must also proscribe organisations that incite terrorism - against people at home and abroad.
I do have a problem with this. What does it mean? Does it mean groups that simply do not share our views. Or ones whose activity, while in itself not violent, could lead to violence. Like the NRA perhaps? No, that's silly, but do YOU know what he means?Governments must also be shrewder in dealing with those that, while not violent, are certainly, in some cases, part of the problem. We need to think much harder about who it's in the public interest to work with.
I can't disagree with this. There's a lot of laziness taking place, and timidity. People self-censor to the point where they are unwilling to call someone out on some unacceptable positions for fear of being called a racist. If people are going to receive public funds then their organisation should be scrutinised properly. That goes for Christian, Muslim, Jewish groups - everyone.Some organisations that seek to present themselves as a gateway to the Muslim community are showered with public money despite doing little to combat extremism. As others have observed, this is like turning to a right-wing fascist party to fight a violent white supremacist movement.
So let's properly judge these organisations: Do they believe in universal human rights - including for women and people of other faiths? Do they believe in equality of all before the law? Do they believe in democracy and the right of people to elect their own government? Do they encourage integration or separatism?
These are the sorts of questions we need to ask. Fail these tests and the presumption should be not to engage with organisations. No public money. No sharing of platforms with Ministers at home.
I've read posts just today that clearly define the enemy as being Islam. They're not the only ones.We need to be absolutely clear on where the origins of these terrorist attacks lie - and that is the existence of an ideology, 'Islamist extremism'. And we should be equally clear what we mean by this term, distinguishing it from Islam.
Islam is a religion, observed peacefully and devoutly by over a billion people. Islamist extremism is a political ideology, supported by a minority.
What happens when these facets of a liberal society conflict with one another? We have been told that in the future we need to be denying a platform to those who preach intolerance. We must be banning preachers and proscribing organisations. If we ban the Muslim Brotherhood for their intolerance towards homosexuals (good, btw) what about the Catholic Church. Were the MB to tone down the violent rhetoric, would we accept their dismissal of homosexuality in the way we give the Pope a free pass to dismiss it?A genuinely liberal country does much more.
It believes in certain values and actively promotes them.
Freedom of speech. Freedom of worship. Democracy. The rule of law. Equal rights regardless of race, sex or sexuality.
It says to its citizens: this is what defines us as a society.
Is that it? Is that all we are meant to have in common? A shared, woolly commitment (not shared by the majority of his own party, I might add) to liberal values. That's all it means to be British? Bugger me! I could've sworn there was more to it than that!It says to its citizens: this is what defines us as a society.
I'm more interested to find out why exactly so many people are attracted to such a twisted ideology in the first place. Crazy ideas and ideologies abound everywhere in the world, but extremist/fundamentalist/radical Islam derives its power from a certain degree of popular support. Nobody seems to know why people are attracted to it in the first place.
It's in the second of these that his strategy seems doomed to failure. He says:
What happens when these facets of a liberal society conflict with one another? We have been told that in the future we need to be denying a platform to those who preach intolerance. We must be banning preachers and proscribing organisations. If we ban the Muslim Brotherhood for their intolerance towards homosexuals (good, btw) what about the Catholic Church. Were the MB to tone down the violent rhetoric, would we accept their dismissal of homosexuality in the way we give the Pope a free pass to dismiss it?
If Cameron is arguing that those Moslem speakers and organisations that, while not advocating violence, promote an alien illiberal agenda, need to be addressed and challenged and have funding reviewed and removed, why not for other religious groups whose rhetoric, while not violent, is deeply illiberal?
And finally (for now), he says:
Is that it? Is that all we are meant to have in common? A shared, woolly commitment (not shared by the majority of his own party, I might add) to liberal values. That's all it means to be British? Bugger me! I could've sworn there was more to it than that!
Except when it comes to Saudi Arabia, the UAE and other 'good' dictatorships.it's becoming increasingly apparent that the West is no longer willing to compromise its values.
You'd certainly turn quite purple.For consistency's sake, other religious groups that routinely promote an illiberal agenda should be denied funding as well. I'm not gonna hold my breath on that, though.
Perhaps not, but his vagueness really pointed out how slipshod and superficial is his approach. He doesn't really know which aspects of the culture are intrinsic or acceptable or positive, so he speaks in such vague platitudes.I don't think he meant that is all it means to be British. He meant that all British citizens should share those fundamental core values. The core values shared by the majority is what defines any given culture, regardless of the many regional differences that make a country what it is.
Is the Illiberal Practice of Sharia "inherent to Islam"?As regards the first point, often this is not a case of changing the subject. Given that the disscussion normally focuses around whether these actions are an inherent part of Islam it is neccesary to look at other examples. Thus violence and authoritarianism are no more an inherent part of Islam then they are of Christiality,...
Ultimatly I dont except that these traits are inherent to Islam as I dont see the evidence. The lack of support for Islam electorally and the comparatively benine history that Islam has in tolerating other religeons (again it is necessary to make the comparison to Christiality here) convince me other wise, but im open to changing my mind on this. Thats why im here, however what normally happens is that you debate me rather then the topic.
StillBallinn said:I'm more interested to find out why exactly so many people are attracted to such a twisted ideology in the first place. Crazy ideas and ideologies abound everywhere in the world, but extremist/fundamentalist/radical Islam derives its power from a certain degree of popular support. Nobody seems to know why people are attracted to it in the first place.
'Wouldn't that be nice' as my friend Pat Condell says.We have a differing interpretation of why these actions occur, so the rational responce to this would be to actually come to the truth about which is correct via a rational and honest discussion....
That's not what he was saying. He said:This discussion is not just, or even mainly about terrorism. It's about illiberal attitudes that Mr Cameron says we don't tolerate from anyone Else and shouldn't from Muslims either.
Let's be clear, his speech was entirely about defeating terrorism, and what has to be done to undermine the basis for it amongst British Muslim communities. Anyone is permitted to hold the most extreme and illiberal beliefs they wish, and express them (check out Southern Baptists, Opus Dei or the English Defence League). What cannot be tolerated is the attempt to impose those ideas through non-democratic means and using violence. You may wish that Cameron had been saying, "Judaeo-Christian values, good; Muslim values, bad." But Cameron was speaking about defeating extremist terrorism.We need to be absolutely clear on where the origins of these terrorist attacks lie - and that is the existence of an ideology, 'Islamist extremism'.
And we should be equally clear what we mean by this term, distinguishing it from Islam.
Islam is a religion, observed peacefully and devoutly by over a billion people. Islamist extremism is a political ideology, supported by a minority.
The irony of Cameron's speech being followed within hours by a march of 3,000 EDL fascist hatemongers, and a warm seal of approval by the BNP is all too evident.
Why do you call the English Defense League fascist? Do you consider the American Tea Party fascist as well?
and
andand
Yes Bravo!
But rather odd the above two posters are [now] cheering it unless they they think he only means "terrorism".
It's other posters in the Europe section, such as Myself, Gardener, Djoop, etc who've been the Bringing up much Wider "values" issue and being called "islamophobes" for it.
ie,
Poll: UK Muslims have ZERO tolerance of Homosexuality. 0-fer-500.
ihttp://www.debatepolitics.com/europ...zero-tolerance-homosexuality-0-fer-500-a.html
Read a few pages of the above if you want to see 'whos who' in this debate. Note the immediate attack/s.
So he's talking a Large Minority-to-maybe-Majority of Muslims who hold many of these Illiberal views and Koranic literalism. Such as wanting Sharia, penalty for anti-islamic speech, etc.
And of course talking about/objecting to multiculturalism and duplicity/hypocrisy by ostensible liberals.
"NOT just Terrorism." MY Mantra.
I have a hundred+ posts in the Europe section saying just that. Most heavily objected by many, including the two above.
Perhaps it's OK when Lalia posts it/quotes it.
But someone should now alert alexa, Red Dave, PeteEU, etc, etc, that two more have changed sides in the blink of an eyelash.
So because the EDL doesnt find Sharia Law or Liberal Britains tolerance for it fashionable they are hatemongers? I would say its the other way around. Anyone who would label people that disagree with them or would put up with an idealogy that discriminates against Women, gays & people of other religions are the hate mongers here.The irony of Cameron's speech being followed within hours by a march of 3,000 EDL fascist hatemongers, and a warm seal of approval by the BNP is all too evident.
American conservatives reject the notion that the English Defense League is fascist. That idea is complete rubbish. We will have none of it.
Why do you call the English Defense League fascist? Do you consider the American Tea Party fascist as well?
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