Brigitte Gabriel

[Mira]

I was PM-d this video by a member of the "other" forum as proof of the ultimate truth.

We've never heard about this woman in Lebanon or in Europe but she seems to be very popular in the USA. She writes books, frequently lectures to American conservative-leaning organizations such as The Heritage Foundation, Christians United for Israel, Evangelicals and Jewish groups. In order to promote her views, Gabriel founded the American Congress For Truth and ACT! for America so that citizens may "Fearlessly speak out in defense of America, Israel and Western civilization. (source Wiki)

When I watched her video
[ame=http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3928169851397891989]Interview with Brigitte Gabriel[/ame]

my first reaction was "WTF is she talking about" ??

I AM a Lebanese Christian, born only a year after she was born, grew up in mainly Muslim west Beirut, travelled to Southern Lebanon maybe 50 times or more, and NOTHING of what she's talking about is true. Marjayoun, the village where she was born is where I stayed for a whole month in 1984 working on a documentary with a colleague. Not one single story of what she is describing was told by the inhabitants of that village.

If you're interested in seeing her video and asking me speciffic questions, I'll be more than happy to answer.

I just don't understand how these people can be left around to spread so much hate by adding fuel to the already existing fire.

I e-mailed a good friend of mine who is the ME chief editor of a news agency in Washington and this was his reply.

"I met her once. She is a right-wing lunatic. Sees evil muslims under every
bed."

 

[Coolguy]

... and NOTHING of what she's talking about is true.

Ok?
Why should I believe you over her?

 

[Mira]

Ok?
Why should I believe you over her?

Because I am a Lebanese Christian as well and left Lebanon in 1989.

Because of my job, I travelled from the far south to the far north dozens of times.

I grew up in West Beirut which was predominantly Muslim. Spent my school years in an Evangelical school. Next to my school was another one run by nuns. Across the street from where I lived was a school inside a monastery.

Next to my house there was a church, open and active (my sister got married in a church). All Christian schools and churches remained open and active. Everything from weddings, to funerals, to Good Friday, Sunday mass and midnight masses were celebrated and attended by large crowds.

Our landlord was a maronite Christian and lived downstairs with her family. She had 7 children and 19 grandchilren, all of them lived in West Beirut.

Many of our neighbours were Christian because as I described above, there were many Christian establishments nearby.

Christmas was celebrated in West Beirut each years. The main shopping street Al Hamra was decorated with Christmas lights, shops were decorated and foreign photographers had fun photographing Muslim militiamen decorating huge Christmas trees.

Nobody ever bothered us throughout the civil war and we mingled with the Muslims who were very helpful in difficult times, very respectful and friendly. I'm still in touch with a few of my old neighbours with whom I grew up.

On the predominantly Eastern side however, from the very beginning of the civil war, there was not one mosque left standing and not one single Muslim either. It was the Christian militia who stopped people at checkpoints, asked for their IDs and shot them if they were Muslim. The black Saturday remains in my memmory as one of the most awful souvenirs.

Poligamy is almost nonexistant in Lebanon and in the Levant in general. The number of Christians did not decrease because Muslims married several women. The Christians were the most priviledged and the discrimination in the work arena made it as such that Christians had the better jobs, were richer and sent their children to private schools. Second came the Sunnis and the Shi'ites were simply considered as second class citizens.

Almost everyone wanted to flee the battles. The Christians had the financial means and they left in large numbers. After the war some of them went back, but many prefered their lives in the West.

The village where she was born, Marjayoun was in South Lebanon. Christians in south Lebanon formed the South Lebanon Army which was simply Israel's Lebanese army. The village that she's talking about was in Israel's security zone. As I mentioned in the OP, I spent a whole month there inteviewing the inhabitants and none of the horror stories that she mentions were told.

Apart from a short-lived plan by Hizbollah to turn Lebanon into Muslim nation in the early 80-s there has never been a question of chasing the Christians. Hizbollah gave up their stupid plan very quickly. The Christians on the other hand used 10 452 Km2 (the surface of Lebanon) as their slogan to indicate that the whole of Lebanon belongs to them.

edit to add: of course many Christians freaked out and fled to the other side anyway, their loss. You can also find some stories of Christians being harrassed, my famous landlord's son was one of them. He turned out to be spying for the Christian Lebanese Forces militia. He was caught with a trasmission device which was intercepted.We never saw her son Nabil again and that's when she moved to the East and her flat was kept by a friend of hers, also a Christian.

 

[Arcana XV]

Okay, I watched the whole thing. She's a very compelling speaker and I have to admit her story touched me at times. I can't comment on the veracity of her account of what she went through during her childhood and teen years in Marjayoun. I do have Christian Lebanese friends, however, and their stories are more similar to yours than hers, Mira. But then, like you, they're all from Beirut, not from Southern Lebanon.

Could it be that both yours and her experiences are true, though? Maybe Christians in Beirut were sheltered from all the violence she experienced in the south. Marjayoun's history, from what I can tell from a quick glance at other sources online, seems to be quite violent indeed. I'm willing to entertain the idea that she may have exaggerated some of the stories, but I'm not altogether certain she was making it all up.

 

[celticlord]

Because I am a Lebanese Christian as well and left Lebanon in 1989.

Because of my job, I travelled from the far south to the far north dozens of times.

None of which answers the question: Why should we believe you and not her?

 

[Lerxst]

I don't know about her politics, but damn that woman is stunningly gorgeous.

 

[Mira]

Okay, I watched the whole thing. She's a very compelling speaker and I have to admit her story touched me at times. I can't comment on the veracity of her account of what she went through during her childhood and teen years in Marjayoun. I do have Christian Lebanese friends, however, and their stories are more similar to yours than hers, Mira. But then, like you, they're all from Beirut, not from Southern Lebanon.

Could it be that both yours and her experiences are true, though? Maybe Christians in Beirut were sheltered from all the violence she experienced in the south. Marjayoun's history, from what I can tell from a quick glance at other sources online, seems to be quite violent indeed. I'm willing to entertain the idea that she may have exaggerated some of the stories, but I'm not altogether certain she was making it all up.

The Lebanon war was not between Muslims and Christians, it was between right-wing and left-wing militias. The right-wing militias ,armed and trained by Israel were exclussively Christian on the other hand the left-wing militias armed and trained by a number of outside forces (including the Soviet Union and later Syria and Iran) were mainly Muslim but there were also alot of Christians among them.

As I said before, her village was in the south and part of Israel almost, so I totally believe her when she said that her village was bombed and very possibly her house, but NOT because they were Christians as she wants us to believe, but because they were right-wing and cllaborating with Israel.

It was a disgusting war and I left in 1989 because I didn't see myself living for the rest of my life with poeple who killed each other for 15 years. Of course there were the massacres of Christians in Damour and Souk Al Gharb and the massacres of Muslims on Black Saturday, Tal El Zaatar, Quarantina and Nab'aa, but as I stated above, Lebanon's war was not confessional, it was political.

There has never been a project to turn Lebanon into a Muslim country (except very briefly in the 80-s) but the Christians certainly broadcast it repeatedly with their 10 452 Km2 slogan throughout the war.


edit: the Shi'ites in South Lebanon who collaborated with Israel were considered enemies also and were treated as such. Marjayoun was bombarded but NOT because it was a Christian village.

 

[Arcana XV]

The Lebanon war was not between Muslims and Christians, it was between right-wing and left-wing militias. The right-wing militias ,armed and trained by Israel were exclussively Christian on the other hand the left-wing militias armed and trained by a number of outside forces (including the Soviet Union and later Syria and Iran) were mainly Muslim but there were also alot of Christians among them.

As I said before, her village was in the south and part of Israel almost, so I totally believe her when she said that her village was bombed and very possibly her house, but NOT because they were Christians as she wants us to believe, but because they were right-wing and cllaborating with Israel.

It was a disgusting war and I left in 1989 because I didn't see myself living for the rest of my life with poeple who killed each other for 15 years. Of course there were the massacres of Christians in Damour and Souk Al Gharb and the massacres of Muslims on Black Saturday, Tal El Zaatar, Quarantina and Nab'aa, but as I stated above, Lebanon's war was not confessional, it was political.

There has never been a project to turn Lebanon into a Muslim country (except very briefly in the 80-s) but the Christians certainly broadcast it repeatedly with their 10 452 Km2 slogan throughout the war.


edit: the Shi'ites in South Lebanon who collaborated with Israel were considered enemies also and were treated as such. Marjayoun was bombarded but NOT because it was a Christian village.

Yeah, she seemed to want to give the impression that Christians were being targeted more for their religion than their political positions. I think that's probably a product of what she said she was told as a child. "They hate us because we are Christians". She seems to be very smart and educated, so I'm surprised she still clings to that notion. Although, I think that eventually in any conflict the sectarian differences do take on a religious undertone. If the majority in one group tend to think a certain way politically, it's easy to paint them all with the same broad brush.

 

[Mira]

Yeah, she seemed to want to give the impression that Christians were being targeted more for their religion than their political positions. I think that's probably a product of what she said she was told as a child. "They hate us because we are Christians". She seems to be very smart and educated, so I'm surprised she still clings to that notion. Although, I think that eventually in any conflict the sectarian differences do take on a religious undertone. If the majority in one group tend to think a certain way politically, it's easy to paint them all with the same broad brush.

What I think about her is that she has an anti-Muslim programme and she's using the fact that she's a Lebanese Christian in order to fuel hatred toward Muslims in America. I don't know who's behind her but she's certainly being paid to do this and has great ambitions with her project of spreading Islamophobia.

If there was a project of ethnic cleansing in Lebanon as she claims, believe me the West would have reacted.

 

[Arcana XV]

What I think about her is that she has an anti-Muslim programme and she's using the fact that she's a Lebanese Christian in order to fuel hatred toward Muslims in America. I don't know who's behind her but she's certainly being paid to do this and has great ambitions with her project of spreading Islamophobia.

If there was a project of ethnic cleansing in Lebanon as she claims, believe me the West would have reacted.

It's not so much anti-Muslim as anti-Arab. She seems to revile the Arab culture as a whole and thinks that the only society worth a damn in the Middle East is the Israeli society. I think she was born on the wrong side of the border, tbh.

 

[Mira]

It's not so much anti-Muslim as anti-Arab. She seems to revile the Arab culture as a whole and thinks that the only society worth a damn in the Middle East is the Israeli society. I think she was born on the wrong side of the border, tbh.

Its is both anti-Arab and anti-Muslim. That sentiment is rooted very deeply in some Lebanese Christians. They still refuse to be called Arabs but prefer to consider themselves as descendents of the Phoenicians.
That's also why many Christians refuse to speak Arabic but speak French instead.

That's a whole intersting subject on its own though and a very intersting one.

 

[Gardener]

Because I am a Lebanese Christian as well and left Lebanon in 1989.

You claim to be a Lebanese Christian, yes.

The recorded evidence of you points of view espoused here, however, are unrelentingly defensive of Muslims and quite critical of Christians and Jews.

 

[Arcana XV]

You claim to be a Lebanese Christian, yes.

The recorded evidence of you points of view espoused here, however, are unrelentingly defensive of Muslims and quite critical of Christians and Jews.

Actually, the one that suprises me the most is not Mira but Ms Gabriel. I have to say I have never met a Lebanese person, no matter what religion, who was this big a friend of Israel. No Lebanese I've ever met would ever bury any family members anywhere else than on Lebanese soil. There's all sorts, I guess. *shrugs*

 

[Gardener]

Actually, the one that suprises me the most is not Mira but Ms Gabriel. I have to say I have never met a Lebanese person, no matter what religion, who was this big a friend of Israel. No Lebanese I've ever met would ever bury any family members anywhere else than on Lebanese soil. There's all sorts, I guess. *shrugs*

I don't think Gabriel's opinions are at all typical, either.

The Maronites I have known, though, (both in person and through the internet) sound quite different from Mira, though. When Mira described the Lebanese civil war, for instance, ALL of her criticism was placed on the Christians and none on the Muslims, whereas those would be fighting words for the folks I have known who experienced the cill war.

 

[Arcana XV]

I don't think Gabriel's opinions are at all typical, either.

The Maronites I have known, though, (both in person and through the internet) sound quite different from Mira, though. When Mira described the Lebanese civil war, for instance, ALL of her criticism was placed on the Christians and none on the Muslims, whereas those would be fighting words for the folks I have known who experienced the cill war.

Yes, that's also been my experience with Lebanese Christians. I figured Mira is less prone to place blame on the Muslim side because she grew up in a predominantly Muslim neighborhood. I hope she doesn't mind clarifying this for us.

 

[Mira]

The Lebanon war was not between Muslims and Christians, it was between right-wing and left-wing militias. The right-wing militias ,armed and trained by Israel were exclussively Christian on the other hand the left-wing militias armed and trained by a number of outside forces (including the Soviet Union and later Syria and Iran) were mainly Muslim but there were also alot of Christians among them.

As I said before, her village was in the south and part of Israel almost, so I totally believe her when she said that her village was bombed and very possibly her house, but NOT because they were Christians as she wants us to believe, but because they were right-wing and cllaborating with Israel.

It was a disgusting war and I left in 1989 because I didn't see myself living for the rest of my life with poeple who killed each other for 15 years. Of course there were the massacres of Christians in Damour and Souk Al Gharb and the massacres of Muslims on Black Saturday, Tal El Zaatar, Quarantina and Nab'aa, but as I stated above, Lebanon's war was not confessional, it was political.

There has never been a project to turn Lebanon into a Muslim country (except very briefly in the 80-s) but the Christians certainly broadcast it repeatedly with their 10 452 Km2 slogan throughout the war.


edit: the Shi'ites in South Lebanon who collaborated with Israel were considered enemies also and were treated as such. Marjayoun was bombarded but NOT because it was a Christian village.

I did not say the Muslims are saints.

Please read the above post again.

 

[Coolguy]

Because I am a Lebanese Christian as well and left Lebanon in 1989.
...

None of which says or gives me any reason why I should believe you over her?

You claim to be a Lebanese Christian, yes.

The recorded evidence of you points of view espoused here, however, are unrelentingly defensive of Muslims and quite critical of Christians and Jews.

Which causes me to question her motivation.

I don't know who's behind her but she's certainly being paid to do this and has great ambitions with her project of ...

Based on what I have seen from you so far... you seem to be from the opposite side of the same type of coin.

 

[Mira]

None of which says or gives me any reason why I should believe you over her?


Which causes me to question her motivation.



Based on what I have seen from you so far... you seem to be from the opposite side of the same type of coin.

Well don't believe me then . That's perfectly fine with me. Doesn't change anything neither in Lebanon's history, nor in the current situation where at least 50% of the Christians support General Aoun who has signed a Memorandum Of Understanding with Hizbollah

 

[alexa]

Yes, that's also been my experience with Lebanese Christians. I figured Mira is less prone to place blame on the Muslim side because she grew up in a predominantly Muslim neighborhood. I hope she doesn't mind clarifying this for us.

Thanks for your input Arcana. Here is how I have seen it.

Because the Lebanon is Mira's home and she has seen and experienced things directly, she would not be human if she did not have some strong personal feelings about the situation determined by what she has seen and known.

She has also described how she has further direct knowledge through her work.

I have read a few of these threads and noticed that Mira does her best to not present things in any way other than that which she believes to be true while also being honest about her personal feelings.

At the same time she has come in for not only totally one sided views from all but one of the Israeli supporters but unsubstantiated personal attacks claiming basically she is antisemitic and even that she may be lying about who she is.

Under such conditions anyone but a saint would be likely to pull further into their own position due to the other sides refusal to look at things in any way objectively.

It definitely takes two to tango.

 

[Mira]

All I'm trying to say is that the Lebanese civil war was not confessional, it was political.

A huge part of what this woman is saying are lies. Where she is correct though is that the influx of Palestinian refugees furthur changed the balance of Christian/Muslim compositon of the country when you consider that the entire Lebanese population is about 3 million people. The Christians decided to oust the refugees and Israel helped them. The leftist militias composed of Muslims and Christians took the Palestinian side. The war escalated to a million more issues.

I did not live exclussively in West Beirut. My father's shop was in East Beirut.

I remember one day when my father was hospitalised in the East, I went to visit him and he shared a room with a Christian man.

The man told me "your father said that you live in West Beirut, my poor girl, you must be so scared that the Muslims will rape and kill you, move over here and I can make space for you to live in my family home"

I tried in vain to explain to him that I lived along with many other Christians in West Berut without any fear or threat.

The man was certainly brainwashed and I don't blame him, but this young woman in the video has a specific agenda and that is to brainwash people agaisnt Islam. She's even eager to prove that Obama is Muslim and the Amersican people are a victim of a Muslim conspiracy. She's simply dangerous.

 

[Coolguy]

A huge part of what this woman is saying are lies.

Why should I believe you over her.

She is speaking of a personal experience, just as you are.
You are attacking her, basically saying her personal experience is a lie without backing it up with anything other than your own personal experience.
That's not good enough.

Should we automatically believe her if she comes on this forum and accuses you (like you did her) of being a liar?

The only difference between you two besides your opinions being on opposite sides of the coin, is she isn't hiding behind a faceless name on some internet forum making allegations.

 

[Mira]

Why should I believe you over her.

She is speaking of a personal experience, just as you are.
You are attacking her, basically saying her personal experience is a lie without backing it up with anything other than your own personal experience.
That's not good enough.

Should we automatically believe her if she comes on this forum and accuses you (like you did her) of being a liar?

The only difference between you two besides your opinions being on opposite sides of the coin, is she isn't hiding behind a faceless name on some internet forum making allegations.

As I said before, don't believe me if you wish.

Why don't you start to do some research. Start with Lebanon and polygamy for example.

edit: I challenge her to go speak in front of a crowd in Beirut.

 

[Coolguy]

I challenge her to go speak in front of a crowd in Beirut.

Did you send it to her? If not, do so.

 

[Mira]

Did you send it to her? If not, do so.

send her what ?

 

[Coolguy]

send her what ?

Your challenge.
Challenge her to speak in front of a crowd in Beirut.
Don't make a challenge to folks it has nothing to do with, that's ridiculous, make it to her.



In addition.

Why don't you start to do some research. Start with Lebanon and polygamy for example.

It doesn't work that way.
You are the one claiming; "NOTHING of what she's talking about is true.", it is up to you to prove it with facts, not personal experience, and not for me to do some research. :doh