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Boycott Citgo

danarhea said:
Bingo. This is the real key to the debate - Free markets. Unfortunately, many of those who advocate free markets are quick to unadvocate them if their friends in the oil business are not competitive in a free market. The whole Chavez thing is nothing but a red herring.

And yes, I DO fill up with Citgo. Its about a nickel cheaper here in Houston, and I hear its a lot cheaper than that in other parts of the country. If Exxon-Mobil feels that Chavez is such a big issue, then all they have to do is step up to the plate and beat Citgo's price. If Chavez is such a threat, I am sure that they would be willing to sacrifice a little profit in order to fight that threat, wouldnt you think? But We the People are always asked to do the sacrificing, while Bush's cronies always get a free pass on that. To that I say Bushit. Fill 'er up Caesar.

I don't use Citgo - I didn't use it before I knew all the Chavez stuff: primarily because it's always been a substandard fuel. In my area all the gas is about the same (within a few cents of each other - unless someone starts a "price war" - in which case everybody's price drops drastically). I will pay a nickel more for a better quality fuel - same goes for about any product for that matter. This issue of Citgo has little to do with Chavez being a bad guy - duh: we all know the middle east countries where we get oil is full of bad guys too. Whoopty-freakin-doo! Sure, I want the best price possible; but, I also want a quality product. I also don't care for a product from a place that sued us to change our laws to accept their low quality crap.
 
Arthur Fonzarelli said:
I don't use Citgo - I didn't use it before I knew all the Chavez stuff: primarily because it's always been a substandard fuel. In my area all the gas is about the same (within a few cents of each other - unless someone starts a "price war" - in which case everybody's price drops drastically). I will pay a nickel more for a better quality fuel - same goes for about any product for that matter. This issue of Citgo has little to do with Chavez being a bad guy - duh: we all know the middle east countries where we get oil is full of bad guys too. Whoopty-freakin-doo! Sure, I want the best price possible; but, I also want a quality product. I also don't care for a product from a place that sued us to change our laws to accept their low quality crap.

Just curious. How do you know it's a substandard fuel and not a better quality fuel?
 
In order to receive the significantly lower margin requirements afforded to legitimate hedgers, oil producers almost always have to be sellers of futures contracts. That is the only way that they, as producers, can hedge their price risk. If they begin going long (buying) futures for reasons other than simply rolling a hedge forward to the next contract, they are no longer due hedge margins. They are already long the product; if they buy futures or options contracts, then they are long even more product and thereby exposed to even greater price risk. Exchange clearing corporations have very sharp pencils. Playing the float on moneys posted for margin requirements is a very profitable business for them.

Aside from your comments about hedging and Exchange clearing corporations, isn't this what I just said--i.e. that oil producers have to sell contracts to make money, not buy them? As you point out, they've already got the product, which is what they need to sell to make money.

That is not to say that there is never any speculative activity on the long side of the market by the trading/hedging arms of the majors. With deep pockets, a favorite tactic of someone with a sizable number of contracts to sell, is to first, buy up as many as possible, hoping to get a bandwagon effect going, so that he can then dump all his positions at a higher price. A little information as to inventories and production schedules can't hurt either. Sometimes it works; sometimes it don't.

Again, isn't this what I just said (well, the part about the bandwagon effect aside)? The critical issue is how deep those pockets would have to be, especially since it's not just NYMEX that would have to be manipulated. Again, who's going to buy contracts on NYMEX when there are many more for less available in Dubai?

Your comments reflect a somewhat vauge awareness of the workings of the commodities markets. You use some of right words but in often in the wrong context (e.g., futures don't have strike prices, options have strike prices; see below for my comment on cash versus physical settlement, among others.)

Or maybe just a vague understanding of the jargon: in the interest of full disclosure, I do not invest in oil futures. I think you'd have to be insane to play that game right now. Nor do I have a degree in finance; what I know about oil markets I picked up by necessity while researching global oil supplies. I do invest and have for a while in stocks, and I do rather well at it. I tend to stay away from derivatives.

But for all my vague understanding, it appears that you're saying very much what I have been saying.

CL is physical delivery, not cash settlement.

Are you saying that a CL contract is never settled in cash via mutual agreement of the parties in question?

As to your overall point, it is extremely difficult, almost impossible, for anyone to manipulate an exchange-traded US commodities market today, for several reasons: one, the exchange surveillance systems are very good at picking up unusual activity (whether it is in volume spikes or concentrations or whatever);

Well, anyone with enough money, connections, and wherewithal could simply purchase all contracts available over a period of time, and hold them, tightening supply. If JP Morgan Chase wanted to create enough of the right kind of subsidiary or front business, fund them, and then send them out to purchase as many oil contracts as possible, it could be done. Better would be if Citibank, JP Morgan Chase, Wachovia, and Goldman-Sachs all made an agreement amongst themselves to do so. But in any case, it would take people with a lot of money, money on an order that even the oil majors don't wield. I sensed, earlier in this thread, someone alluding to exactly that idea, which seems to come up relatively often in informal discussions I have with all and sundry. The idea is that through some kind of financial wizardry, the evil oil companies have driven up the price of oil, and that without that having happened, the price of gasoline would still be less than a dollar at the pump.

This is the idea I'm arguing (however vaguely) against.

two, exchange-imposed position limits in and of themselves almost guarantee that a market as deep and liquid as crude can't be manipulated (absent extremely broad collusion); three, the CFTC requires the filing of daily position reports, and these are not just tossed in a file cabinet, they are reviewed by CFTC analysts.

All of which could be gotten around, possibly even legally. But again, especially re: your remark about the depth of the oil market, how are you disagreeing with me?

If there is gouging by the majors, it is highly unlikely to be solely or predominately as a result of their activities at the NYMEX. It is more likely to be as a result of withholding physical oil from the market while simultaneously refraining from hedging activities, and effective PR.

Well, keep in mind that the IRS requires that they accurately report their inventory, and they get audited. If they're holding oil, they're paying taxes on it, but their tax records don't reflect any substantive witholding. The actual inventories (I'm not talking about p90 reserves here--I mean inventory at refineries) held by the majors, as well as by nationalized corporations, has been declining steadily, though not sharply, for the past five years.
 
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ashurbanipal said:
how are you disagreeing with me?

Except for one aspect (discussed below), I'm not disagreeing with the broader context of your posts. My posts have been attempts to point out factual inaccuracies in your posts that could significantly influence the outcomes that you have described. You have (1) posited that manipulation of crude prices by the majors is highly unlikely and almost impossible, but on the other hand, (2) a consortium (or in commodity jargon, a 'pool') backed by financial institutions with deep pockets might actually do the trick. If I have misunderstood, please correct me.

ashurbanipal said:
Are you saying that a CL contract is never settled in cash via mutual agreement of the parties in question?

From the NYMEX web site, here are the terms of delivery:

Settlement Type

Physical.

Delivery

F.O.B. seller's facility, Cushing, Oklahoma, at any pipeline or storage facility with pipeline access to TEPPCO, Cushing storage, or Equilon Pipeline Co., by in-tank transfer, in-line transfer, book-out, or inter-facility transfer (pumpover).

Delivery Period

All deliveries are ratable over the course of the month and must be initiated on or after the first calendar day and completed by the last calendar day of the delivery month.

Alternate Delivery Procedure (ADP)

An alternate delivery procedure is available to buyers and sellers who have been matched by the Exchange subsequent to the termination of trading in the spot month contract. If buyer and seller agree to consummate delivery under terms different from those prescribed in the contract specifications, they may proceed on that basis after submitting a notice of their intention to the Exchange.

Exchange of Futures for Physicals (EFP)

The commercial buyer or seller may exchange a futures position for a physical position of equal quantity by submitting a notice to the Exchange. EFPs may be used to either initiate or liquidate a futures position.

Note the ADP or Alternate Delivery Procedure - I have no info on how often this procedure is utilized to consumate delivery. Other than this, all deliveries are physical, no cash settlement.

The idea is that through some kind of financial wizardry, the evil oil companies have driven up the price of oil, and that without that having happened, the price of gasoline would still be less than a dollar at the pump.

This is the idea I'm arguing (however vaguely) against.

And with this, I agree, for reasons explained below.

ashurbanipal said:
Well, anyone with enough money, connections, and wherewithal could simply purchase all contracts available over a period of time, and hold them, tightening supply. If JP Morgan Chase wanted to create enough of the right kind of subsidiary or front business, fund them, and then send them out to purchase as many oil contracts as possible, it could be done. Better would be if Citibank, JP Morgan Chase, Wachovia, and Goldman-Sachs all made an agreement amongst themselves to do so.

And with this, I disagree. Recall my mention of position limits? Recall my mention of surveillance by both exchange and regulatory authorities (the CFTC, in this case)? The crude market is so large, so liquid, that it would be impossible for the necessary level of collusion to escape the attention of regulators. With position limits of 20,000 net contracts in a market that, on many days, trades 300,000 to 400,000?

So go ahead and create a front business and send them out to purchase as many contracts as possible - which is 20,000 net. Doing so will no doubt provide a brief spike upwards in prices, but the net result is more likely to be simply providing the locals and other commercial hedgers a nice opportunity to sell to you at a higher price ('fading' you, in old-time commodities jargon). While you try to explain your activities to the regulators who came knocking right away, you can also plan on calling your financial backers for more margin money.

We've seen efforts to manipulate markets in the past, from the Hunt Bros efforts in the silver markets to efforts in the sugar markets and well, other ignominious failures. I'm not saying it absolutely, positively can't be done; I am saying that it is extremely unlikely.
 
BWG said:
Just curious. How do you know it's a substandard fuel and not a better quality fuel?

I read...

In my state of Florida, almost all 7-Eleven Stores offer Citgo gasoline. When you go to 7-Eleven and fill up your tank with Citgo gasoline, you do almost nothing for the U.S. economy. Why? 7-Eleven is majority owned by the Japanese (64%) and Citgo is based in Venezuela. The United States lost a World Trade Organization dispute - brought forth on behalf of Citgo and Venezuela - which challenged our EPA laws. We lost that dispute. Our options were to either face binding penalties from Venezuela or change our clean air laws. President Clinton chose to weaken our clean air laws to accommodate Venezuela’s trampling of U.S. sovereignty. Don’t reward foreign companies that make us change American laws!

Roger Simmermaker, Author
How Americans Can Buy American

http://www.howtobuyamerican.com/content/db/b-db-gasoline.shtml
 
Except for one aspect (discussed below), I'm not disagreeing with the broader context of your posts. My posts have been attempts to point out factual inaccuracies in your posts that could significantly influence the outcomes that you have described. You have (1) posited that manipulation of crude prices by the majors is highly unlikely and almost impossible, but on the other hand, (2) a consortium (or in commodity jargon, a 'pool') backed by financial institutions with deep pockets might actually do the trick. If I have misunderstood, please correct me.

That's more or less it, except I speculated on the possibility of 2 only to cover my bases in a concession to a point you made. I don't think that's what's happening--I just have to acknowledge the logical possiblity that it could be happening.

Note the ADP or Alternate Delivery Procedure - I have no info on how often this procedure is utilized to consumate delivery. Other than this, all deliveries are physical, no cash settlement.

Again, I included cash settlement as a logical possibility. I don't think anyone could deny that it probably happens occasionally. In fact, I am fairly sure that when Shell lost 59 billion (with a B) barrels of oil in 2004 (due to an accounting error, they claimed), they probably had to settle quite a few contracts in cash.

And with this, I disagree. Recall my mention of position limits? Recall my mention of surveillance by both exchange and regulatory authorities (the CFTC, in this case)? The crude market is so large, so liquid, that it would be impossible for the necessary level of collusion to escape the attention of regulators. With position limits of 20,000 net contracts in a market that, on many days, trades 300,000 to 400,000?

Well, by "all" I was engaging in a little hyperbole. To affect the price, you wouldn't have to purchase all, just enough to tighten the market significantly.

So go ahead and create a front business and send them out to purchase as many contracts as possible - which is 20,000 net. Doing so will no doubt provide a brief spike upwards in prices, but the net result is more likely to be simply providing the locals and other commercial hedgers a nice opportunity to sell to you at a higher price ('fading' you, in old-time commodities jargon). While you try to explain your activities to the regulators who came knocking right away, you can also plan on calling your financial backers for more margin money.

So long as you have the cash to hold your positions for long enough, though, (assuming you've been successful), the price should eventually stabilize at the new level.

Not that there wouldn't be problems; the principle problem would ultimately stem, though, from a lack of money. If you had a literally unlimited supply of cash, this sort of manipulation would be easy. But my point is that it would have to be, for all practical purposes, unlimited. You'd have to be able to swing not just billions, but tens of billions, hundreds of billions. The majors aren't that big.

As for the regulators: sometimes they're effective, sometimes they're not. Enron managed to avoid arousing suspicion in any number of instances that should have had a variety of regulatory agencies knocking on their doors. And I suspect (though I cannot prove) that after the news rules took effect from the fallout of that deal, companies just came up with more creative ways to get around this when it suited them. Not that it would be easy, or that it wouldn't be risky.

In any case, keep in mind that I'm discussing a scenario that I do not believe is going on. I brought it up in order to acknowledge that there was one avenue whereby there was a small possibility I am wrong. I don't believe that the recent rise in the price of oil has much, if anything at all, to do with speculation. The much more likely case is that supply is very tight and getting tighter at a time when demand is exploding in both China and India. Oil is getting more an more expensive to lift out of the ground, we're having to spend more money per barrel to find new sources, and those sources are much smaller than the mega-fields we were used to discovering up through the mid-nineties. We are very rapidly approaching the point where we will, per unit time, produce as much oil as we will ever produce, and from there, we will produce less and less.

And this, I think, is one of three or four truly critical issues of our time. Consider what the effect would be on the economy if Gasoline were to go up to $20.00 a gallon. What about $40.00? What if it could no longer be provided to the civilian sector at all?

We're not there yet, and we won't be for at least another few years. However, regardless of when it happens, one thing we should know is that it will happen, and we must be prepared for it.

We've seen efforts to manipulate markets in the past, from the Hunt Bros efforts in the silver markets to efforts in the sugar markets and well, other ignominious failures. I'm not saying it absolutely, positively can't be done; I am saying that it is extremely unlikely.

Would you also agree that, at least as far as the oil trade is concerned, the principle issue would be in having enough cash?
 
ashurbanipal said:
I don't believe that the recent rise in the price of oil has much, if anything at all, to do with speculation. The much more likely case is that supply is very tight and getting tighter at a time when demand is exploding in both China and India. Oil is getting more an more expensive to lift out of the ground, we're having to spend more money per barrel to find new sources, and those sources are much smaller than the mega-fields we were used to discovering up through the mid-nineties.

Actually, I believe speculation has played a huge role in the run-up in crude and crude futures have played a significant role. Remember that the single most important function of a futures market is price discovery. In this role, at its simplest, speculators and producers come together in a market facilitated by market-makers ('locals' in commodity jargon) to 'discover' a market-clearing price for their commodity. As the energy futures complex grew in depth and depth and liquidity throughout the eighties and nineties, producers learned that it could be relied upon for a liquid market in which to hedge the price risk of their committments, while speculators began to discern and learn to trade the fundamentals and technicals of the crude market. This large public order flow is a locals dream, giving them commercial and speculator order flow to trade against.

It certainly has not taken rocket science to become cognizant of the price-impacting factors that you have enumerated. Coupled with continuing ME tensions, any and all of which contribute to some degree to the risk to future disruptions in production in the region, and you have a market in which opinions are easily come by. Coupled with an easy way (in the form of deep and liquid markets) to express that opinion, it becomes a natural attraction for speculators. Reminds me very much of bond futures from the late '70s thru the early '80s.

ashurbanipal said:
Would you also agree that, at least as far as the oil trade is concerned, the principle issue would be in having enough cash?

No, I wouldn't. The problem is still twofold: (1) position limits that are too small relative to the averaqe daily trading volume and open interest, and (2) the effectiveness of regulatory surveillance. I've discussed both of these in previous posts, so I'll not repeat those remarks here, except to suggest that you consider the following: recall that initial margin for a CL contract is only $4,375 for a non-member. Further, remember that the position limit is 20,000 net contracts. So an operator trying to drive prices up by buying all that he can, has to post (rounding down) $4,000 * 20,000 =$80,000,000 in initial margin. To the extent that he is successful and the price increases, that operator is able to either withdraw any cash in excess of his margin requirement or use it as margin to buy additional contracts - except that he can't buy any more because he has reached his position limit.

The converse is of course also true: should our speculators 20,000 contracts prove unable to sway the market price for more than a temporary blip, and the price falls back to a level below that of the speculator's purchase price, then he is required to post additional margin. In years gone by, more than one speculator went bust because even though he was eventually correct in his market assessment, but lacked the resources to stay with his position until he was proven prescient. This is where the deep pockets that you write of would come into play - but that also demonstrates how important it is for the operator to be correct on the fundamentals and technicals intrinsic to the market (so that he is taking positions in sympathy with the underlying fundamentals and technicals, rather than against them), and how extremely difficult it is to simply 'muscle' the market in his direction for any length of time regardless of the underlying fundamentals.

ashurbanipal said:
Enron managed to avoid arousing suspicion in any number of instances that should have had a variety of regulatory agencies knocking on their doors.

Enron is probably not a good example here, as their difficulties sprang more from OTC markets than exchange-traded markets, as evidenced by their need to move stuff to SPVs.

As you can see, there is just huge financial leverage in futures contracts! A relatively modest amount of cash can control relatively huge amounts of product!
 
ashurbanipal said:
And this, I think, is one of three or four truly critical issues of our time. Consider what the effect would be on the economy if Gasoline were to go up to $20.00 a gallon. What about $40.00? What if it could no longer be provided to the civilian sector at all?

We're not there yet, and we won't be for at least another few years. However, regardless of when it happens, one thing we should know is that it will happen, and we must be prepared for it.

I think we all have come to recognize the possiblity of steadily increasing energy costs coupled with and caused by continuing depletion alongside steadily increasing demand. So, my question is, to what extent do you think US foreign policy, particularly with respect to the ME, is driven by these considerations?

This is perhaps a more appropriate topic for another thread, but let me ask this question anyway, then if it looks like it might develop interest, we'll see about moving it to its own thread.
 
ludahai said:
Citgo is the Venezuelan state owned oil company. Considering the actions of the Hugo Chavez government regarding threats to curtail U.S. carrier flights to Venezuela, threats to cut back oil exports, expressing support for Iran, who just wants to wipe Israel off the map, and getting buddy buddy with Fidel, it's about time to make him realize that he needs the American consumer far more than the United States needs him.

Hey Ludahai - your avatar says Taipei, Taiwan. Whatever happened to "The Republic of China"? Have you let the "international community" rename your country?
 
Arthur Fonzarelli said:
I read...

In my state of Florida, almost all 7-Eleven Stores offer Citgo gasoline. When you go to 7-Eleven and fill up your tank with Citgo gasoline, you do almost nothing for the U.S. economy. Why? 7-Eleven is majority owned by the Japanese (64%) and Citgo is based in Venezuela. The United States lost a World Trade Organization dispute - brought forth on behalf of Citgo and Venezuela - which challenged our EPA laws. We lost that dispute. Our options were to either face binding penalties from Venezuela or change our clean air laws. President Clinton chose to weaken our clean air laws to accommodate Venezuela’s trampling of U.S. sovereignty. Don’t reward foreign companies that make us change American laws!

Roger Simmermaker, Author
How Americans Can Buy American

http://www.howtobuyamerican.com/content/db/b-db-gasoline.shtml

That doesn't show me how Citgo is a substandard gasoline. I thought you might have a rating list from a lab or something. You do know Citgo gasoline is refined in Louisiana and Texas, right?
 
BWG said:
That doesn't show me how Citgo is a substandard gasoline. I thought you might have a rating list from a lab or something. You do know Citgo gasoline is refined in Louisiana and Texas, right?

87 Octane is 87 Octane, no matter who produces it, and the labeling on the pump must conform to Federal law. Citgo gas is just as good as any other. The real stink being raised here is the fact that Exxon-Mobil does not wish to operate in a competitive environment. Fact is, your car doesnt know the difference.
 
danarhea said:
87 Octane is 87 Octane, no matter who produces it, and the labeling on the pump must conform to Federal law. Citgo gas is just as good as any other. The real stink being raised here is the fact that Exxon-Mobil does not wish to operate in a competitive environment. Fact is, your car doesnt know the difference.

LOL...I know. I retired from the refining business. I was trying to find out the basis of this statement. :smile:



Arthur Fonzarelli said:
I don't use Citgo - I didn't use it before I knew all the Chavez stuff: primarily because it's always been a substandard fuel.


The fact that you purchase gasoline from a given company does not necessarily mean that the gasoline was actually produced by that particular company's refineries. While gasoline is sold at about 167,000 retail outlets across the nation, about one-third of these stations are “unbranded” dealers that may sell gasoline of any brand. The remainder of the outlets are “branded” stations, but may not necessarily be selling gasoline produced at that company's refineries. This is because gasoline from different refineries is often combined for shipment by pipeline, and companies owning service stations in the same area may be purchasing gasoline at the same bulk terminal.

I might add that the 'special additives' by the major brands are then added at these terminals, not at the refineries.

:lol:
 
Oldreliable,

I apologize for not posting back sooner; some unexpected and tragic events recently occured that I had to deal with, but please do not think I am not enjoying this conversation. Anyway:

Actually, I believe speculation has played a huge role in the run-up in crude and crude futures have played a significant role. Remember that the single most important function of a futures market is price discovery. In this role, at its simplest, speculators and producers come together in a market facilitated by market-makers ('locals' in commodity jargon) to 'discover' a market-clearing price for their commodity. As the energy futures complex grew in depth and depth and liquidity throughout the eighties and nineties, producers learned that it could be relied upon for a liquid market in which to hedge the price risk of their committments, while speculators began to discern and learn to trade the fundamentals and technicals of the crude market. This large public order flow is a locals dream, giving them commercial and speculator order flow to trade against.

You're correct, but I think you're saying something a little different than I'm saying. My point was that, absent those other factors, both political and geological, the process of speculation would not have driven the prices up to the levels they are today. Or, to state my claim differently, speculation has not unreasonably driven up the price.

It certainly has not taken rocket science to become cognizant of the price-impacting factors that you have enumerated. Coupled with continuing ME tensions, any and all of which contribute to some degree to the risk to future disruptions in production in the region, and you have a market in which opinions are easily come by. Coupled with an easy way (in the form of deep and liquid markets) to express that opinion, it becomes a natural attraction for speculators. Reminds me very much of bond futures from the late '70s thru the early '80s.

I think it's more than just ME tensions, though clearly that's part of it, as are the damage done (and the promise of more damage done) by hurricanes in the gulf. The underlying issue is that we're coming to realize that we're probably pumping about the maximum amount of oil we will ever pump. We may edge up close to 90 mbpd, but I'll be very suprised if we break that. How long we'll hold at that level I don't know, but the news doesn't look good.

No, I wouldn't. The problem is still twofold: (1) position limits that are too small relative to the averaqe daily trading volume and open interest, and (2) the effectiveness of regulatory surveillance.

Keeping in mind that I'm continuing a scenario that I don't think has happened, suppose I am someone in the Bush administration with ties to big oil, and I, along with a consortium of my friends, decide to try to manipulate the market. Singly, none of my friends could buy enough to do much to drive up prices, but combined, and dipping into a fund supplied by one or more large banks, it could be done. So long as no connection between any of my friends could be shown, and so long as I maybe pull a few strings on their behalf, it could work.

To be clear, I'm simply continuing this part of the discussion because I think that's what a lot of people believe is going on. I wasn't too cognizant, prior to this discussion, of the specific daily limits imposed by NYMEX, but in any case I think that over time and as long as the game were played carefully, that could be circumvented. I think the real problem is going to come up when you consider that NYMEX is not the only exchange that would have to be dealt with, and the CFTC wouldn't be the only regulatory agency ultimately to become interested.

The converse is of course also true: should our speculators 20,000 contracts prove unable to sway the market price for more than a temporary blip, and the price falls back to a level below that of the speculator's purchase price, then he is required to post additional margin. In years gone by, more than one speculator went bust because even though he was eventually correct in his market assessment, but lacked the resources to stay with his position until he was proven prescient. This is where the deep pockets that you write of would come into play - but that also demonstrates how important it is for the operator to be correct on the fundamentals and technicals intrinsic to the market (so that he is taking positions in sympathy with the underlying fundamentals and technicals, rather than against them), and how extremely difficult it is to simply 'muscle' the market in his direction for any length of time regardless of the underlying fundamentals.

Yes, and it's my position that ultimately it would be too difficult, even for the oil majors.

Enron is probably not a good example here, as their difficulties sprang more from OTC markets than exchange-traded markets, as evidenced by their need to move stuff to SPVs.

I meant the Enron example as a general indication that regulations can be circumvented with enough political pull, enough creativity, and enough wherewithal.

As you can see, there is just huge financial leverage in futures contracts! A relatively modest amount of cash can control relatively huge amounts of product!

Indeed.

I think we all have come to recognize the possiblity of steadily increasing energy costs coupled with and caused by continuing depletion alongside steadily increasing demand. So, my question is, to what extent do you think US foreign policy, particularly with respect to the ME, is driven by these considerations?

I think this is a very complex issue, and I preface my remarks by saying that it's impossible to know with any certainty what is really happening. So what follows is what I suspect is true, but cannot prove:

I think our foreign policy is driven primarily by energy concerns at this point, and has been for some while. The Middle East is not the only source of oil in the world, but Southwest Asia is certainly the single most oil-endowed region in the world. We now know that non-OPEC oil production is in terminal decline (actually, it may be that OPEC is also in decline now...they're off their target and previous production for the third month in a row), and I haven't read any optimistic pieces about the potential for new discoveries in rather a long time; the growing consensus seems to be that there aren't going to be any more mega-fields left to find. What we're going to run into are smaller pockets that yield a heavier crude that will be higher in sulfur and therefore harder to refine. These will also be in more inhospitable or hard-to-reach regions (arctic, deep-water), increasing the cost of getting the oil out of the ground even prior to getting it to a refinery.

Mexico's mega-giant field, Cantarell, is now past peak and the initial numbers for the type I decline there look abysmal--maybe as high as 12% but it's really too early to tell. Venezuela, though endowed with significant resources in oil, is also on sour terms with the U.S. right now, and has established closer ties to the BRIC (Brazil, Russia, India, China) nations. Canada's tar sands are going into development full tilt, but aside from environmental concerns, it appears that they will never get more than 10 mbpd into production, and that's a decade away or more. Unsubsidized, the cost of a barrel of crude from the tar sands is over $100.00 U.S. The other problem is that in order to get oil from the tar sands at all, they have to use natural gas both as a heating source and as a catalyst. Natural gas isn't as easy to ship as oil and is past peak in North America.

Russia has quite a lot of oil yet to be pumped, but they're going to stop exporting by 2010; their oil will be used to build their country. That's a huge problem for us that so far no one is yet discussing.

Essentially, the ME is the only area of the world with significant enough supplies left for us to really worry over. Now, there is something that needs saying about that as well. In 1983 (IIRC) OPEC changed its rules about how much oil its member countries could pump-the new quotas were based on stated reserves. In the two years after that decision, the stated reserves of the OPEC countries jumped dramatically, in a couple cases trebling from previous numbers. The stated reserves were up to the member countries to determine; there was no 3rd party audit of any of it (actually, I think the UAE did get an audit but the results were kept secret). It was recently announced that Kuwait's reserves may be only a third of what they've been saying--the Kuwaitis original confirmed and then denied that story so it's difficult to say.

It does seem rather suspicious that almost immediately subsequent to our discovery that the FSU 'stans didn't have as much oil as we thought, we ended up in two wars in the ME, one in a country that controls 80% of the current pipeline capacity to China, another that has the second largest total reserves and the single best maintained reserves on the planet. There is quite a lot of recent history that tends to indicate that the wars we are engaged in were planned or at least hoped for. There was quite a lot that came out in European newspapers even prior to 9/11 that indicated we were in a lead-up to war.

The issue now, however, is that we've not been very successful at doing what we'd hoped. We know that oil is absolutely critical to the economy, and that the economy is absolutely critical to maintain life as we know it. How we keep the oil flowing is all-important at this point, as is the equally powerful but counter-dicting point that it won't last forever no matter what we do.
 
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ashurbanipal said:
I apologize for not posting back sooner; some unexpected and tragic events recently occured that I had to deal with...

Very sorry to hear that - hope it eventually all works out well.

ashurbanipal said:
speculation has not unreasonably driven up the price...it's more than just ME tensions...the damage done (and the promise of more damage done) by hurricanes in the gulf...The underlying issue is that we're coming to realize that we're probably pumping about the maximum amount of oil we will ever pump.

Thats a pretty good compendium of causes of the run-up in crude prices: speculation (current trend plus expectations for future fundamentals) plus fundamentals (todays fundamentals being the underlying supply and demand outlook) equals significantly higher prices.

ashurbanipal said:
suppose I am someone in the Bush administration with ties to big oil

Certainly not required. Anyone can make the effort.

ashurbanipal said:
but combined, and dipping into a fund supplied by one or more large banks, it could be done. So long as no connection between any of my friends could be shown, and so long as I maybe pull a few strings on their behalf, it could work.

Sorry, no I disagree. First, a fund supplied by one or more large banks requires disclosures, guarantees and collateral, all of which will serve to identify the participants. The process of obtaining the size of funding that such an operation would require dictates that loan committees and other bank officers, audit staff and bank examiners (read: the Fed and the Comptroller of the Currency, as well as state examiners) would be aware of identities. You just can't keep that stuff secret.

Second, even if you tried to do this with offshore Special Purpose Vehicles (SPVs), like Enron did, there is no longer an auditor in the world who will provide the cursory examination that was provided to Enron. And you would have to have a clean audit to take to the bank to obain funding.

ashurbanipal said:
the specific daily limits imposed by NYMEX, but in any case I think that over time and as long as the game were played carefully, that could be circumvented.

They aren't "daily limits"; they are overall position limits. You can't go and buy 20,000 today and another 20,000 tomorrow etc, etc, etc. After you have amassed a 20,000 net contract position, you're done buying until you sell some to make room for more. Your comments suggest that you have never been the subject of an exchange investigation of your trading activity. It ain't pretty.

ashurbanipal said:
NYMEX is not the only exchange that would have to be dealt with, and the CFTC wouldn't be the only regulatory agency ultimately to become interested.

True on both counts.

Thanks for your comments on foreign policy vis a vis oil. Out of time for the moment; hope to continue later tonite.
 
ludahai said:
There was a whole thread about Chavez and his regime. No free elections, freedom on the downswing in Venezuela, media oppression, receiving awards from Castro, supporting Iran, etc.

BS. Chavez is not a dictator but he did replace a dictator when he was first elected into power. I really hate blanket statements so I'll counter a few of them here:

1. No free elections - Patently false. All elections in Venezuela are free elections. It is true that Chavez's party is in overwhelming control of the National Assembly but thats not because the elections are not free elections. It's because the major parties in opposition to Chavez withdrew their candidates from the last parliamentary election and boycotted it. The National Assembly is still unicameral but Chavez's party is in the majority because it is the most popular party in Venezuela.

2. Freedom on the downswing - Thats not really true. All Venezualan citizens have the same rights we have plus some.

3. Media opression - Lets put this in context shall we? In 2002 not only did the media support but also organized and played an active role in the coup d'etat against the democratically elected government along with the minority in oppossition to Chavez. Obviously the coup failed and the National Assembly passed the Law on Responsibility in Radio & Television which regulates how much sex, bad language, and violence media outlets can broadcast before 7pm. We have an entire government organization called the FCC which regulates the exact same things so until we disolve it and allow people to talk about mammary glands over the air again we have no right to criticize such a law. Chavez also proposed a new penal code, which was approved by the National Assembly, which calls for heavy fines and possible jail time for media persons who slander government officials and private citizens, incite violence, cause public panic and distress via false reporting, and who do not provide balance (the media was overwhelmingly biased against Chavez prior to this). Some members of the media and opposition to Chavez have been telling tales of government persecution of the media but none of them have been confirmed and they're not reliable sources because they've had an axe to grind against the government since the people overthrew their dictator a decade ago and created a constitution for the people and by the people.

4. Recieving awards from Castro - So???

5.Supporting Iran - Chavez supports Iran's ambitions to have the ability to produce nuclear power...nothing more and nothing less.


P.S. You didn't really believe that Chavez wasn't going to take real action in response to the slander being spewed about him in Washington did you?
 
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