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Bombs Away For Russia, Hands Tied Behind Back for U.S. & Israel

JBG

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Ain't it funny. When Israel is attacked by suicide bombers, stabbers, and the like, when Israel's discos and pizza parlors are attacked, the U.S. urges "restraint" and "proportionality." The International Committee of the Red Cross has this definition of "proportionality" (link):
Practice Relating to Rule 14. Proportionality in Attack
Section A. General

III. Military Manuals
With reference to Israel’s Law of War Booklet (1997), the Report on the Practice of Israel states: “The IDF [Israel Defense Forces] would not attack a target in cases in which it is expected that the attack would cause civilian loss, injury or damage excessive in relation to the military advantage anticipated.”
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Israel’s Manual on the Laws of War (1998) states:
Even when it is not possible to isolate the civilians from an assault and there is no other recourse but to attack, this does not constitute a green light to inflict unbridled harm on civilians. The commander is required to refrain from an attack that is expected to inflict harm on the civilian population that is disproportionate to the expected military gain.
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Israel’s Manual on the Rules of Warfare (2006) states:
In any attack, it is a duty to ensure that:

- That the military gain expected from the attack is proportional to the expected damage that would be caused to civilians as a result of the offensive.
The manual further states: “Proportionality must be maintained: an act must not be performed if the damage to civilians/the environment exceeds the concomitant military benefit.”
The Manual on the Rules of Warfare (2006) is a second edition of the Manual on the Laws of War (1998).
Meanwhile, back in Ukraine's Donbas region, Russia rains missiles on Ukraine as the war enters a new phase. Excerpt:
Russia on Tuesday declared the start of a new phase of its assault on Ukraine aimed at capturing all of the Luhansk and Donetsk regions in the east, as the Defense Ministry announced a sharp escalation of missile and artillery strikes overnight.
Why must the West talk about "proportionality" and Biden babble about "off-ramps" while for Russia, it's "bombs away." Heck, even zoo workers are legitimate targets.
 
Ain't it funny. When Israel is attacked by suicide bombers, stabbers, and the like, when Israel's discos and pizza parlors are attacked, the U.S. urges "restraint" and "proportionality." The International Committee of the Red Cross has this definition of "proportionality" (link):

Meanwhile, back in Ukraine's Donbas region, Russia rains missiles on Ukraine as the war enters a new phase. Excerpt:

Why must the West talk about "proportionality" and Biden babble about "off-ramps" while for Russia, it's "bombs away." Heck, even zoo workers are legitimate targets.

Because when our allies commit the exact same crimes we accuse Russia of, it makes it rather hard to condemn Putin with any sort of credibility. Duh.

Which is yet another reason why American complicity in Saudi Arabia’s slaughter in Yemen is so vile.
 
Ain't it funny. When Israel is attacked by suicide bombers, stabbers, and the like, when Israel's discos and pizza parlors are attacked, the U.S. urges "restraint" and "proportionality." The International Committee of the Red Cross has this definition of "proportionality" (link):

Meanwhile, back in Ukraine's Donbas region, Russia rains missiles on Ukraine as the war enters a new phase. Excerpt:

Why must the West talk about "proportionality" and Biden babble about "off-ramps" while for Russia, it's "bombs away." Heck, even zoo workers are legitimate targets.

I should take seriously the opinions of a Trumpist who calls himself "very liberal". That's how I know he's only pretending to be a Trumpist.

:rolleyes:


Here's the deal: different things are different, and our geopolitical interests are different than Israel's and Ukraine's geopolitical interests. Modern global society is insanely complex, and you do us all a disservice when you dumb it down this much. There are reasons we say different things about these different situations, and those reasons number more than the single fact that they are different.
 
Because when our allies commit the exact same crimes we accuse Russia of, it makes it rather hard to condemn Putin with any sort of credibility. Duh.

Which is yet another reason why American complicity in Saudi Arabia’s slaughter in Yemen is so vile.

Not to mention our complicity in Israel's ongoing genocide of the Palestinian people.
 
I should take seriously the opinions of a Trumpist who calls himself "very liberal". That's how I know he's only pretending to be a Trumpist.
In what way am I not a liberal?

Here's the deal: different things are different, and our geopolitical interests are different than Israel's and Ukraine's geopolitical interests. Modern global society is insanely complex, and you do us all a disservice when you dumb it down this much. There are reasons we say different things about these different situations, and those reasons number more than the single fact that they are different.

Things can be made so complex that we're paralyzed. The Russians and the September 11 artists are not so restrained.
 
Ain't it funny. When Israel is attacked by suicide bombers, stabbers, and the like, when Israel's discos and pizza parlors are attacked, the U.S. urges "restraint" and "proportionality." The International Committee of the Red Cross has this definition of "proportionality" (link):

Meanwhile, back in Ukraine's Donbas region, Russia rains missiles on Ukraine as the war enters a new phase. Excerpt:

Why must the West talk about "proportionality" and Biden babble about "off-ramps" while for Russia, it's "bombs away." Heck, even zoo workers are legitimate targets.

What more do you want?

I am certainly not willing to go to war with Russia.

I do not believe in interventionism absent a clear pre-established mutual defense treaty.

We have one with NATO allies. We don't with Ukraine. Nor IMO should we for reasons likely discussed in other historical threads on Ukraine under this current leadership.

Full disclosure, I did not support the Iraq War, intervention in Sudan, intervention in Afghanistan, intervention in Vietnam.

We are not the "World's Policeman." It only gets us into trouble, while profiting our "military-industrial complex."
 
OP, You are completely correct. However, Israel relies on western liberals for support. Russia does not.

Western liberals and their beliefs about proportionality do not actually matter except to other western liberals (eg Kabul, Yemen, Syria...none of the western liberal beliefs actually matter there). If the political repercussions of alienating western liberals outweighs the military benefits then it's imperative to keep the liberals happy (similarly, nobody and I do mean nobody except western liberals and jihadi sympathizers care about the US bombing targets in Raqqa or killing ISIS prisoners. And western liberals don't matter militarily).

This is tough for Israel as they face very real threats and their govt also has to deal with a domestic audience that will demand action be taken if innocents are killed among them. Quite a tough balancing act. With the rise of BDS and other anti-Israeli movements in the west it will become less and less important for Israel to appease these groups as they largely already view Israel as an illegitimate state that has no "right" to exist. So we may be approaching the day when Israel says F it, F the western liberals who hate us, and decides to let the dogs off the leash and decide that the way the Arabs handle their own issues in Yemen or Homs should be a model for Gaza.
 
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OP, You are completely correct. However, Israel relies on western liberals for support. Russia does not.

Western liberals and their beliefs about proportionality do not actually matter except to other western liberals (eg Kabul, Yemen, Syria...none of the western liberal beliefs actually matter there). If the political repercussions of alienating western liberals outweighs the military benefits then it's imperative to keep the liberals happy (similarly, nobody and I do mean nobody except western liberals and jihadi sympathizers care about the US bombing targets in Raqqa or killing ISIS prisoners. And western liberals don't matter militarily).

This is tough for Israel as they face very real threats and their govt also has to deal with a domestic audience that will demand action be taken if innocents are killed among them. Quite a tough balancing act. With the rise of BDS and other anti-Israeli movements in the west it will become less and less important for Israel to appease these groups as they largely already view Israel as an illegitimate state that has no "right" to exist. So we may be approaching the day when Israel says F it, F the western liberals who hate us, and decides to let the dogs off the leash and decide that the way the Arabs handle their own issues in Yemen or Homs should be a model for Gaza.
Exactly. The Western liberal views work, maybe, in the corridors of Ivy League class buildings. They barely work in Ivy League dorms.
 
Good point. We should start shipping nukes to Ukraine.
 
Exactly. The Western liberal views work, maybe, in the corridors of Ivy League class buildings. They barely work in Ivy League dorms.
I'd say that's a bit simplistic and harsh.

I do believe that western liberals have largely forgotten what it means to be playing with all of your chips on the table. Which is very unfortunate.

I feel very strongly that the US focus in Afghanistan and Iraq should have been on creating states which will 1. Not threaten us and 2. Be able to defend their nations. The liberal colonies we built there have largely been incapable, although there is still hope for the Iraqis following the expulsion of ISIS and years of bloodshed (with other trials coming) while the liberal Afghan government has disintegrated. Or rather, retreated to the Upper West Side...

Iraqi and Afghan Nationalism, not democracy, should have been the primary focus.
 
t
OP, You are completely correct. However, Israel relies on western liberals for support. Russia does not.

Western liberals and their beliefs about proportionality do not actually matter except to other western liberals (eg Kabul, Yemen, Syria...none of the western liberal beliefs actually matter there). If the political repercussions of alienating western liberals outweighs the military benefits then it's imperative to keep the liberals happy (similarly, nobody and I do mean nobody except western liberals and jihadi sympathizers care about the US bombing targets in Raqqa or killing ISIS prisoners. And western liberals don't matter militarily).

This is tough for Israel as they face very real threats and their govt also has to deal with a domestic audience that will demand action be taken if innocents are killed among them. Quite a tough balancing act. With the rise of BDS and other anti-Israeli movements in the west it will become less and less important for Israel to appease these groups as they largely already view Israel as an illegitimate state that has no "right" to exist. So we may be approaching the day when Israel says F it, F the western liberals who hate us, and decides to let the dogs off the leash and decide that the way the Arabs handle their own issues in Yemen or Homs should be a model for Gaza.

Israel doing that would be the literal dumbest thing they could possibly do. “Militarily speaking” killing POWs remains a war crime even if you scoff about how “only western liberals” care about such atrocities.
 
t

Israel doing that would be the literal dumbest thing they could possibly do. “Militarily speaking” killing POWs remains a war crime even if you scoff about how “only western liberals” care about such atrocities.

Israel will take whatever action they need to do to survive. If western liberals decide that Israel is illegitimate anyways that will open new tools for Israel to use. Why spend millions on smart weapons to save civilian lives when it's irrelevant? In fact it may be determined that inflicting pain is what is needed to end the terrorist threat, a la Syria. It is likely that MBZ will tell Israel if they've gone to far, and the Chinese won't care if Israel sends the Palestinians to get sterilized. Hell, they'd probably make a bid on the job.

You notice how Bashar al Assad is still in power? All that talk about war crimes only matters if you lose.

Only western liberals care, and when push comes to shove western liberals don't matter. And when push comes to shove Israel is going to do what it needs to not lose.

They know western liberals aren't coming to save them.
 
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I'd say that's a bit simplistic and harsh.

I do believe that western liberals have largely forgotten what it means to be playing with all of your chips on the table. Which is very unfortunate.

I feel very strongly that the US focus in Afghanistan and Iraq should have been on creating states which will 1. Not threaten us and 2. Be able to defend their nations. The liberal colonies we built there have largely been incapable, although there is still hope for the Iraqis following the expulsion of ISIS and years of bloodshed (with other trials coming) while the liberal Afghan government has disintegrated. Or rather, retreated to the Upper West Side...

Iraqi and Afghan Nationalism, not democracy, should have been the primary focus.
Having attended an Ivy League school, graduating in 1979, I know from what I speak.
 
Israel will take whatever action they need to do to survive. If western liberals decide that Israel is illegitimate anyways that will open new tools for Israel to use. Why spend millions on smart weapons to save civilian lives when it's irrelevant? In fact it may be determined that inflicting pain is what is needed to end the terrorist threat, a la Syria. It is likely that MBZ will tell Israel if they've gone to far, and the Chinese won't care if Israel sends the Palestinians to get sterilized. Hell, they'd probably make a bid on the job.

You notice how Bashar al Assad is still in power? All that talk about war crimes only matters if you lose.

Only western liberals care, and when push comes to shove western liberals don't matter. And when push comes to shove Israel is going to do what it needs to not lose.

They know western liberals aren't coming to save them.

Israel hasn’t faced an actual existential threat in well over forty years. They literally have nuclear weapons. The idea that they are somehow going to be destroyed if they aren’t brutal enough ie laughable. It certainly isn’t an excuse for committing war crimes.

Yes, he is, and yes, he’s absolutely a war criminal. The idea that war crimes don’t matter if you kill enough “terrorists” is throughly moronic.

YOU might not care about war crimes, but that’s hardly an excuse for committing them.
 
I should take seriously the opinions of a Trumpist who calls himself "very liberal". That's how I know he's only pretending to be a Trumpist.

:rolleyes:
Moronic deflection is moronic. It's amazing how I can just click around random threads and come across you generating dumb****ery throughout multiple threads.
Here's the deal: different things are different, and our geopolitical interests are different than Israel's and Ukraine's geopolitical interests. Modern global society is insanely complex, and you do us all a disservice when you dumb it down this much. There are reasons we say different things about these different situations, and those reasons number more than the single fact that they are different.
You literally said nothing at all.

"It's different because things are different because things are different." - Mr Person
 
Israel hasn’t faced an actual existential threat in well over forty years. They literally have nuclear weapons. The idea that they are somehow going to be destroyed if they aren’t brutal enough ie laughable. It certainly isn’t an excuse for committing war crimes.

Yes, he is, and yes, he’s absolutely a war criminal. The idea that war crimes don’t matter if you kill enough “terrorists” is throughly moronic.

YOU might not care about war crimes, but that’s hardly an excuse for committing them.

War crimes are simply irrelevant if you win and nobody is coming to save you if you lose.

It's better to be a war criminal and win than end up getting genocided out like would have happened to the Alwites in Syria or did happen to the poor sops dumb enough to support the USA in Afghanistan.

The Afghan regime would have done better to embrace simple rules: You hit our school, we hit your mosques.

Now, when it comes to Israel, eventually they are going to reach a point where the pot is boiling too hot for all the iron domes in the world to cover. And Israel will clean house. Western liberals will cry. And nobody but other western liberals and jihadi sympathizers will care.
 
War crimes are simply irrelevant if you win and nobody is coming to save you if you lose.

It's better to be a war criminal and win than end up getting genocided out like would have happened to the Alwites in Syria or did happen to the poor sops dumb enough to support the USA in Afghanistan.

The Afghan regime would have done better to embrace simple rules: You hit our school, we hit your mosques.

Now, when it comes to Israel, eventually they are going to reach a point where the pot is boiling too hot for all the iron domes in the world to cover. And Israel will clean house. Western liberals will cry. And nobody but other western liberals and jihadi sympathizers will care.

No amount of war crimes in Afghanistan could have held up a regime that was doomed to fail. The Soviets committed boatloads of them during their war there. Guess what? The communist government in Afghanistan still fell.

As for Syria, no matter how much gas Assad dumped on civilians he is still clinging on in large part due to foreign backers propping him up for their own reasons. This “war crimes are no big deal” argument is bizarre.

And it would have lost them all support from the people, because nearly everyone in Afghanistan is some variety of Muslim, including the soldiers and policemen who fought hard for twenty years to hold off the Taliban. Your plan would have been a propaganda boon for the Taliban.

Lol since when? Israel has literally only gotten safer as the years have gone by.
 
No amount of war crimes in Afghanistan could have held up a regime that was doomed to fail. The Soviets committed boatloads of them during their war there. Guess what? The communist government in Afghanistan still fell.

Yes this is literally my point we shouldn't have been supporting a regime based on liberal ideas in Afghanistan (or communist ideas, anywhere)

You know who committed a ton of war crimes?

The Taliban. Aka the 2x Winners.

As for Syria, no matter how much gas Assad dumped on civilians he is still clinging on in large part due to foreign backers propping him up for their own reasons. This “war crimes are no big deal” argument is bizarre.
Compared to losing? And being strung up by some Jihadist mob while you're wife is beheaded? Are you joking?

Winning is what matters. Breaking international laws or not are entirely a peripheral concern.

And it would have lost them all support from the people, because nearly everyone in Afghanistan is some variety of Muslim, including the soldiers and policemen who fought hard for twenty years to hold off the Taliban. Your plan would have been a propaganda boon for the Taliban.

Personally I would have had us declare the Taliban to be heretics who are enemies of God who must repent or die.

The Taliban has loads of enemies. It wouldn't have been a problem.

90% of the problems come from being seen as weak. That's the unforgiveable sin.

How about this:

You blow up a school, we shoot 50 of your POWs in the head. And blow up your heretic mosque.

God, imagine if we were actually serious. That's the least the Afghans deserved...

Lol since when? Israel has literally only gotten safer as the years have gone by.

Safer because they're not under attack or safer because they can hit the dome button when thousands of rockets come flying into their cities?
 
Ain't it funny. When Israel is attacked by suicide bombers, stabbers, and the like, when Israel's discos and pizza parlors are attacked, the U.S. urges "restraint" and "proportionality." The International Committee of the Red Cross has this definition of "proportionality" (link):

Meanwhile, back in Ukraine's Donbas region, Russia rains missiles on Ukraine as the war enters a new phase. Excerpt:

Why must the West talk about "proportionality" and Biden babble about "off-ramps" while for Russia, it's "bombs away." Heck, even zoo workers are legitimate targets.
It is in Russia's interest to support war mongering and divisive extremism. And they are encouraging their provocateurs to do so now.
 
Yes this is literally my point we shouldn't have been supporting a regime based on liberal ideas in Afghanistan (or communist ideas, anywhere)

You know who committed a ton of war crimes?

The Taliban. Aka the 2x Winners.


Compared to losing? And being strung up by some Jihadist mob while you're wife is beheaded? Are you joking?

Winning is what matters. Breaking international laws or not are entirely a peripheral concern.



Personally I would have had us declare the Taliban to be heretics who are enemies of God who must repent or die.

The Taliban has loads of enemies. It wouldn't have been a problem.

90% of the problems come from being seen as weak. That's the unforgiveable sin.

How about this:

You blow up a school, we shoot 50 of your POWs in the head.

God, imagine if we were actually serious. That's the least the Afghans deserved...



Safer because they're not under attack or safer because they can hit the dome button when thousands of rockets come flying into their cities?

Gee, so you oppose the US’ partnership with Vietnam? They are very communist.....and they are also as opposed to the growth of china’s regional influence as we are.

So, what, exactly, was an “Afghanistan not based on liberal ideas” supposed to look like? How would that have been any different from the Taliban?

Yep, and committing those war crimes actively hurt their efforts at trying to regain power(and btw, claiming the Taliban was “2x winners” is amusing given they didn’t even exist when the Soviet war in Afghanistan was ongoing).

In other words, you’d have us emulate German Second World “counter insurgency” strategy. You do realize that mass executions of POWs, besides being a blatant atrocity, renders it rather difficult to gain intelligence about how to the organization, movements, and strategy of the army they belonged to.....right?

Not to mention the fact that the Germans’ “strategy” failed miserably.

And then everyone would roll their eyes and ask what made us decide we were “God’s chosen spokespeople”.

The Taliban had loads of enemies......and they’d be hard pressed to see us any as different than them if we rolled in and started committing a boatload of war crimes.

You seem to be under the impression that committing war crimes somehow helps you win wars, and that’s very much not the case.

Safer as in there isn’t some invading army about to roll over the border....and, again, they literally have nukes.
 
Ain't it funny. When Israel is attacked by suicide bombers, stabbers, and the like, when Israel's discos and pizza parlors are attacked, the U.S. urges "restraint" and "proportionality." The International Committee of the Red Cross has this definition of "proportionality" (link):

Meanwhile, back in Ukraine's Donbas region, Russia rains missiles on Ukraine as the war enters a new phase. Excerpt:

Why must the West talk about "proportionality" and Biden babble about "off-ramps" while for Russia, it's "bombs away." Heck, even zoo workers are legitimate targets.
Not sure about your point here.

It is correct that significant parts of the left in Western countries, US included, are obsessed with Israel.
It is also correct that due to this obsession and the willingness to blow out of proportions anything that happens related to Israel, the US state department has to make pathetic and extremely immoral statements such as the one you quoted where they react to every act of Palestinian violence against Israeli civilians by "calling on both sides" to stop provocations. I agree such statements are absurd, yet it's obvious that the US state department have to answer to a significant and loud bunch of extremists and antisemites and the such who are strongly invested in the anti-Israeli agenda and make noise.

That's completely irrelevant to the reaction to Russia however.
Russia unlike Israel is engaging in war crimes, Russia unlike Israel uses force in a non legitiamte manner and certainly not in self defense, and Russia makes no attempt to show that it is bothered by humane concepts like human rights and morality.
Two wrongs don't make a right, and while the "both sides should cease their actions" nonsensical approach regarding Israel and its conflicts should indeed be opposed and ridiculed, that certainly doesn't mean anything regarding Russia's crimes and opposition to said crimes.
 
Russia unlike Israel is engaging in war crimes
Uhhh...
Armed conflict between Israel and Palestinian armed groups in the Gaza Strip in May entailed apparent war crimes and possible crimes against humanity. Disproportionate and reckless strikes by Israeli forces killed 242 Palestinians in Gaza. Unlawful attacks by Israel included targeted strikes on medical facilities and personnel. Israel maintained its illegal blockade on the Gaza Strip, inflicting collective punishment on residents and exacerbating the humanitarian crisis there, and Palestinians’ freedom of movement was arbitrarily restricted in the West Bank. Israeli authorities subjected Palestinians to forced evictions, arbitrary detention, torture and other ill-treatment, all committed with almost total impunity. Israel’s discriminatory system of governing Palestinians in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT) constituted apartheid, a crime under international law.

Don't get my wrong. Russia really goes above and beyond when it comes to war criming. But like I think it is pretty fair to criticize the government here.
Russia unlike Israel uses force in a non legitiamte manner and certainly not in self defense
What about the 6 day war? It's not like all the IDF has done is fight Hamas.

and while the "both sides should cease their actions" nonsensical approach regarding Israel and its conflicts should indeed be opposed and ridiculed
The thing is, there is no Palestinian government. Israel has all the political power in the region. Hamas is a terrorist group. The Palestinians don't have any meaningful system to politically organize within. They are entirely disempowered in that front. Should Israel defend itself from Hamas? Obviously yes. But it's the Israeli government that has the power systems necessary to make life meaningfully better for the Palestinians.
 
I'm aware of the opinion of groups like Amnesty and HRW, I'm more of a factual discussion fan myself.
Amnesty were caught with ties to Islamist terror groups and the leader of that organization claimed Israel has no right to exist as a Jewish state.
Not really an objective bunch.
What about the 6 day war? It's not like all the IDF has done is fight Hamas.
Russia attacked a peaceful neighbor not threatening it in any sort of way out of hunger for power.
Six-days war was a war of defense against several nations ganging on a smaller younger nation trying to completely annihilate it.
I cannot compare the two.
The thing is, there is no Palestinian government. Israel has all the political power in the region. Hamas is a terrorist group. The Palestinians don't have any meaningful system to politically organize within. They are entirely disempowered in that front. Should Israel defend itself from Hamas? Obviously yes. But it's the Israeli government that has the power systems necessary to make life meaningfully better for the Palestinians.
What do you mean there is no Palestinian government?
The entire civilized world recognizes the Palestinian Authority (PA) as the legitimate Palestinian government.
Israel can only go so far in improving Palestinians' lives. That's an illusion. Even if Israel completely withdraws the occupation tomorrow, Palestinians aren't going to suddenly live in a prospering state. There's a reason there aren't many of those in that region. Their future is and always was in their own hands. If they decide better things are going to happen, it'd be so.
 
I'm aware of the opinion of groups like Amnesty and HRW, I'm more of a factual discussion fan myself.
Do you disagree with the UN assessment as well?
Since it took control of the West Bank during the 1967 Six-Day War, Israel's government has allowed 600,000 to 750,000 Israeli citizens to move to homes in occupied Palestinian
territories of the West Bank. Their towns are viewed by Palestinian leaders as ‘illegal,
fortified settlements - the largest of which houses some 64,000 Israelis – built on
Palestinian land seized by Israel.’ An occupying power is forbidden from transferring parts of its civilian population into the territory which it occupies, according to the fourth article of the Geneva Conventions, which defines humanitarian protections for civilians in a war
zone.
Russia attacked a peaceful neighbor not threatening it in any sort of way out of hunger for power.
Six-days war was a war of defense against several nations ganging on a smaller younger nation trying to completely annihilate it.
I cannot compare the two.
I never compared Russia's invasion of Ukraine to the 6 day war. I was only refuting the idea that Israels military has only operated defensively. The idea that that Israel defensively gained and occupied territory is absurd.

What do you mean there is no Palestinian government?
The entire civilized world recognizes the Palestinian Authority (PA) as the legitimate Palestinian government.
It was my understanding that government in the Gaza strip collapsed and Hamas has control over that area. In addition to the PA having no meaningful way of pushing back against Israels political goals, which is made apparent by the fact that Israel keeps settling people in occupied regions against the wishes of the PA (and international law).
 
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