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Bomb disposal squad in Gaza faces risks amid little protection

Fledermaus

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@Phys251

That Palestinians Arabs cannot live under such conditions is the whole point.

The State of Israel wants the land upon which many Palestinian Arabs have lived for centuries. That state does not want the Palestinian Arabs themselves, however. The solution is to make conditions so bleak for these unwanted inhabitants that Palestinians either leave or become radicalised. If they leave, point finale. If they radicalise, become militants/terrorists and ultimately commit violent acts, then the occupying military power can arrest, try, convict and jail them, demolish their families' homes, wall their neighbours off into ever shrinking ghettos, replace their people with illegal settlers and finally forcibly displace them for reasons of military security or historical site preservation. That's the slow-motion land clearing which is behind the continual suffering of the vast majority of Palestinian Arabs who commit no acts of war or terrorism against the State of Israel or its people.
UXBs are just another reminder to Palestinian Arabs that they must leave.

The Palestinians are not supposed to live this way. They are supposed to leave, be displaced or if militants, die as members of a surplus population which is unwanted by the occupying colonialist power in order to clear the land for incorporation into the ever growing frontiers of Eretz Israel.

Be well.
Evilroddy.

How is "Eretz Israel" relevant to the Hamas governed Gaza?
 

Evilroddy

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How is "Eretz Israel" relevant to the Hamas governed Gaza?
Fledermaus:

Eretz-Israel is supposed to include all the lands up to the Nile and the Sinai Peninsula. Geographical and Historical relevance.

Hamas is a useful tool for the State of Israel to justify its actions in clearing land of unwanted Palestinian Arabs. Political and Security relevance. The State of Israel can almost always count on Hamas or its ilk to do what is in the worst interests of all Palestinians throughout the Occupied Territories.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.
 

Fledermaus

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Fledermaus:

Eretz-Israel is supposed to include all the lands up to the Nile and the Sinai Peninsula. Geographical and Historical relevance.

Hamas is a useful tool for the State of Israel to justify its actions in clearing land of unwanted Palestinian Arabs. Political and Security relevance. The State of Israel can almost always count on Hamas or its ilk to do what is in the worst interests of all Palestinians throughout the Occupied Territories.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

Hamas does what Hamas does because they are Hamas...

Imagine what Gaza could be with someone else in power.
 

Valaisee

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You can't think of a better strategy than bombing civilians? You can't think of a better strategy than giving a pass to Israel's committing literal war crimes?!
As @Fledermaus said, it's not a war crime:
1. If an apartment building is used by Hamas it's considered as "military target" and attacking it is not a war crime.
2. If the attacker used measures to minimize civilian casualties it's not a war crime.

Do you have a better strategy?
 

Valaisee

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@Phys251

That Palestinians Arabs cannot live under such conditions is the whole point.

The State of Israel wants the land upon which many Palestinian Arabs have lived for centuries. That state does not want the Palestinian Arabs themselves, however. The solution is to make conditions so bleak for these unwanted inhabitants that Palestinians either leave or become radicalised. If they leave, point finale. If they radicalise, become militants/terrorists and ultimately commit violent acts, then the occupying military power can arrest, try, convict and jail them, demolish their families' homes, wall their neighbours off into ever shrinking ghettos, replace their people with illegal settlers and finally forcibly displace them for reasons of military security or historical site preservation. That's the slow-motion land clearing which is behind the continual suffering of the vast majority of Palestinian Arabs who commit no acts of war or terrorism against the State of Israel or its people.
UXBs are just another reminder to Palestinian Arabs that they must leave.

The Palestinians are not supposed to live this way. They are supposed to leave, be displaced or if militants, die as members of a surplus population which is unwanted by the occupying colonialist power in order to clear the land for incorporation into the ever growing frontiers of Eretz Israel.

Be well.
Evilroddy.
The facts don't align with this theory.
Which Palestinians were displaced? Which land was "cleared"? Why Israel gave Gaza to the Palestinians?
 

Evilroddy

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@Valaisee

The facts align very well indeed.

Palestinian Arabs have been and are being displaced in the occupied territories since 1967, when the State of Israel militarily occupied these lands as part of a war of aggression which the Israeli State started on June 5th of 1967. That occupation was after the State of Israel signed onto the Charter of the United Nations and various conventions on the laws and customs of war which make it illegal for a military occupying power to settle or annex conquered lands. Look at a map of the West Bank from 1967 and a map of the West Bank today to see the land which has been cleared and the lands which have been walled off.

Look up Muna and Mohammed El-Kurd and their family and neighbours for just the most recent examples of Arab Palestinians being displaced by lop-sided Israeli legalities and force of arms. How can you not know that Palestinian Arabs have been being displaced since well before 1947 and in the Occupied Territories since 1967? That takes some rather determined denial to ignore.

Israel never gave Gaza to anyone. In 2005 it pulled out its own settlers and troops unilaterally. It still occupies the fringes of Gaza with security zones where boots on the ground are still used and still effectively controls all movement in, out of and within Gaza by stand-off observation and stand-off weapon systems. It still controls Gaza's tax revenues, vital energy supplies and the Strip's economy. It still occupies Gaza both factually and legally. It just does it using different tactics than in the West Bank.

But you have missed my point in this thread. The morale-breaking suffering and hopelessness which Palestinian Arabs feel are as much to do with Israeli State policy as they are to do with militancy and terrorism by Palestinian groups like Hamas. The misery and periodic dehousing attacks are designed to drive people out of their homeland or into the arms of radical militants where they will be discredited and easier to force out. The same programme used in the other Ocfupied Territories but with different tactics.

The Palestinians are not supposed to endure what the State of Israel is doing to them. They are supposed to leave, be forcibly displaced or if too militant and determined then die, all outcomes by design, so that Eretz-Israel can slowly be realised over generations. The State of Israel is playing a very long and brutal game for the sake of a thin veneer of deniability. That is why it makes such efforts to muzzle the mainstream press, Israeli organisations like Breaking the Silence or B'Tselem and independent reportage on social media. Low and slow is the profile that has been adopted for this land and people clearing project by the State of Israel.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.
 

Mr Person

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How exactly are Palestinians supposed to live like this? How can one reasonably expect that they won't become radicalized when they can't even sleep without the fear of getting bombed by Israel?

(This question is specific to Palestinians and their day-to-day lives.)

How can they live? Miserably. But they can't very well spend several decades lobbing rockets at Israel, trying to destroy Israel in wars, giving wide support to terrorist organizations, and all the rest, then act surprised when Israel fires back.

The whole thing is a damned mess and quite frankly, won't ever be solved unless both sides stop talking about "right". Palestine itself fell in the 15th century. From then until WWI, the land was not owned by "the Palestinians", but rather The Ottoman Empire. Britain got its hands on it. After WWII and the holocaust, every arab country expelled its Jews (and yes, once Israel was established, it retaliated by expelling arabs). Meanwhile, the UN came up with a number of resolutions that would've given "the Palestinians" way more land than they demand now. They refused.

They refused because they wanted (and the Hamas-oriented ones continue to want) there never to be another Israel. Conflict followed, always with the goal of destroying Israel and killing the Jews. Israel naturally fought back. So to be clear on that point, neither Israel nor "the Palestinians" owned it for quite a long time.....right up until Israel was granted land to establish a state upon.


And now there are so many "but THEY did THAT" first points to be made that the moment anyone starts talking about the rightness and wrongness of it all, solutions become impossible. If we each pick a side we could spend a thousand pages saying "yeah, ok, but what about that?!"

Yes, it is absolutely horrible that families get wiped out. Yet at the same time, what is Israel to do? Nothing? Just fire your rockets, Hamas, it's cool? Hell, Hamas attacks specifically because it wants Israel to retaliate because when that happens, Israel inevitably hits civilians too. That's the whole point of Hamas setting off rockets from high-pop areas. They want martyrs in the news and they're going to get it because it is blindly unrealistic to expect any country not to respond to regular outside attack, no matter what past deeds might be blamed for that regular attack.

Quite frankly, it looks to me like those self-identifying as Palestinians are more at fault than Israel, and that the main instigators in Israel are the hard right backers who cater more to the ultra-Orthodox Jews there, themselves in conflict with the more secular Jews in Israel. And the only way I ever seeing the area become one in which nobody asks how people can live like this is if (1) the final solution is based purely on pragmatism and nobody blabs about their "right" to a given thing, (2) the Palestinians work closely with the IDF in eradicating Hamas.

And what would really really help? If neighboring arab countries would be willing to take "Palestinians" in or offer up some of their land in a multi-party solution.

But you're not going to see peace with Hamas firing rockets - especially with Hamas gaining support from Palestinians every time it blows up some Israeli Jews - because no country is going to not retaliate if it can retaliate.




One.

Big.

Mess.
 

Evilroddy

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This is the slow burning reality on the ground in the Occupied Territories. I will link part I of 4 but the rest are readily available on YouTube. Mohammed El-Kurd and his family have been enduring this demoralising policy for years. So far he has had the good sense and self discipline to pursue his future peacefully. Knowing myself as a teen and young adult, I don't think I would have survived such abuse without being radicalised and turning very, very violent.


Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.
 

Phys251

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How can they live? Miserably. But they can't very well spend several decades lobbing rockets at Israel, trying to destroy Israel in wars, giving wide support to terrorist organizations, and all the rest, then act surprised when Israel fires back.

The whole thing is a damned mess and quite frankly, won't ever be solved unless both sides stop talking about "right". Palestine itself fell in the 15th century. From then until WWI, the land was not owned by "the Palestinians", but rather The Ottoman Empire. Britain got its hands on it. After WWII and the holocaust, every arab country expelled its Jews (and yes, once Israel was established, it retaliated by expelling arabs). Meanwhile, the UN came up with a number of resolutions that would've given "the Palestinians" way more land than they demand now. They refused.

They refused because they wanted (and the Hamas-oriented ones continue to want) there never to be another Israel. Conflict followed, always with the goal of destroying Israel and killing the Jews. Israel naturally fought back. So to be clear on that point, neither Israel nor "the Palestinians" owned it for quite a long time.....right up until Israel was granted land to establish a state upon.


And now there are so many "but THEY did THAT" first points to be made that the moment anyone starts talking about the rightness and wrongness of it all, solutions become impossible. If we each pick a side we could spend a thousand pages saying "yeah, ok, but what about that?!"

Yes, it is absolutely horrible that families get wiped out. Yet at the same time, what is Israel to do? Nothing? Just fire your rockets, Hamas, it's cool? Hell, Hamas attacks specifically because it wants Israel to retaliate because when that happens, Israel inevitably hits civilians too. That's the whole point of Hamas setting off rockets from high-pop areas. They want martyrs in the news and they're going to get it because it is blindly unrealistic to expect any country not to respond to regular outside attack, no matter what past deeds might be blamed for that regular attack.

Quite frankly, it looks to me like those self-identifying as Palestinians are more at fault than Israel, and that the main instigators in Israel are the hard right backers who cater more to the ultra-Orthodox Jews there, themselves in conflict with the more secular Jews in Israel. And the only way I ever seeing the area become one in which nobody asks how people can live like this is if (1) the final solution is based purely on pragmatism and nobody blabs about their "right" to a given thing, (2) the Palestinians work closely with the IDF in eradicating Hamas.

And what would really really help? If neighboring arab countries would be willing to take "Palestinians" in or offer up some of their land in a multi-party solution.

But you're not going to see peace with Hamas firing rockets - especially with Hamas gaining support from Palestinians every time it blows up some Israeli Jews - because no country is going to not retaliate if it can retaliate.




One.

Big.

Mess.

It is one big mess. And desperate people will resort to desperate measures.

You and I have no idea if we would resort to cheering on a bunch of terrorists freedom fighters to shake off what we perceived as a tyrannical government. After all, that's how our nation began.
 

Mr Person

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It is one big mess. And desperate people will resort to desperate measures.

You and I have no idea if we would resort to cheering on a bunch of terrorists freedom fighters to shake off what we perceived as a tyrannical government. After all, that's how our nation began.

Knowing myself, I can say with extremely high confidence that I would not cheer on indiscriminate (for they don't really aim the things) slaughter of citizens of a country, even one I consider an enemy country.

It was actually one of the things that pissed me off so much about Obama. That is, finding out the double-tap and related drone policies. That is, blow up the suspected terrorist, then blow up those who go to help. Overall - between that and all other methods of continuing the 'war on terror' and in Iraq - we had something like a 90% civilian casualty rate in our attacks. Truly disgusting.

Now, is that the same? No. We went over there and stayed. Yes, we were attacked first. But it's not like they surround us and continued strikes all along. But still, I'd hope and bet that I wouldn't cheer on killing their civilians in retaliation.

But, knowing that one never knows for sure how one will behave when the chips are really down until one has seen that situation a time or two, I wouldn't swear it absolutely.

🤷




That said, if the various parties really do shut up about "rights" talk and reach a two-state solution based on pragmatism, but Hamas keeps on with the rockets and Palestinians do not work with Israel to eradicate them, then I suspect I'll give up on trying to be even remotely even-handed about it.

Whatever wrongs lie on Israel's end, they are being asked to accept a solution that does not contain any trustworthy guarantee of an end of hostilities against them (for how could it be enforced or trusted with Hamas still operating as it has been?)
 

Phys251

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Knowing myself, I can say with extremely high confidence that I would not cheer on indiscriminate (for they don't really aim the things) slaughter of citizens of a country, even one I consider an enemy country.

I want to be crystal clear that I am not suggesting that any one person might turn to supporting freedom fighters if they are desperate enough. I am suggesting that that is a human trait.

We can't know what it's like to be truly hopeless and desperate until we actually get there.

It was actually one of the things that pissed me off so much about Obama. That is, finding out the double-tap and related drone policies. That is, blow up the suspected terrorist, then blow up those who go to help. Overall - between that and all other methods of continuing the 'war on terror' and in Iraq - we had something like a 90% civilian casualty rate in our attacks. Truly disgusting.

100% agreed.

Now, is that the same? No. We went over there and stayed. Yes, we were attacked first. But it's not like they surround us and continued strikes all along. But still, I'd hope and bet that I wouldn't cheer on killing their civilians in retaliation.

But, knowing that one never knows for sure how one will behave when the chips are really down until one has seen that situation a time or two, I wouldn't swear it absolutely.

🤷




That said, if the various parties really do shut up about "rights" talk and reach a two-state solution based on pragmatism, but Hamas keeps on with the rockets and Palestinians do not work with Israel to eradicate them, then I suspect I'll give up on trying to be even remotely even-handed about it.

Whatever wrongs lie on Israel's end, they are being asked to accept a solution that does not contain any trustworthy guarantee of an end of hostilities against them (for how could it be enforced or trusted with Hamas still operating as it has been?)

If you know the answers, I'm all ears.
 

AliHajiSheik

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Not happy about it, but I can't think of a better strategy given Hamas infrastructure hides in those apartment buildings. AFAIK the residents of those apartment building were always warned in advance to evacuate the building bafore the fatal strike.


Gaza has a border with Egypt that Israel doesn't control, they can use that.
I didn't see @Phys251 address this, is this true?
 

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It is one big mess. And desperate people will resort to desperate measures.

You and I have no idea if we would resort to cheering on a bunch of terrorists freedom fighters to shake off what we perceived as a tyrannical government. After all, that's how our nation began.

HAMAS...

"Freedom fighters" that intentionally and admittedly target civilians rather than the opposition military.

AKA Terrorists.
 

Valaisee

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Palestinian Arabs have been and are being displaced in the occupied territories since 1967, when the State of Israel militarily occupied these lands as part of a war of aggression which the Israeli State started on June 5th of 1967. That occupation was after the State of Israel signed onto the Charter of the United Nations and various conventions on the laws and customs of war which make it illegal for a military occupying power to settle or annex conquered lands. Look at a map of the West Bank from 1967 and a map of the West Bank today to see the land which has been cleared and the lands which have been walled off.

Look up Muna and Mohammed El-Kurd and their family and neighbours for just the most recent examples of Arab Palestinians being displaced by lop-sided Israeli legalities and force of arms. How can you not know that Palestinian Arabs have been being displaced since well before 1947 and in the Occupied Territories since 1967? That takes some rather determined denial to ignore.
I will focus on the more recent examples because you claim this is an ongoing theory. Palestinians are not "displaced" from Jerusalem, people that live in homes they don't own and refuse to pay rent to the owners are evicted - what's wrong with that?

Israel never gave Gaza to anyone. In 2005 it pulled out its own settlers and troops unilaterally. It still occupies the fringes of Gaza with security zones where boots on the ground are still used and still effectively controls all movement in, out of and within Gaza by stand-off observation and stand-off weapon systems. It still controls Gaza's tax revenues, vital energy supplies and the Strip's economy. It still occupies Gaza both factually and legally. It just does it using different tactics than in the West Bank.
That just not true:
1. Israel control it's border with Gaza as any other country that controls its borders, and only forbids weapons entering Gaza.
2. Gaza has a border with Egypt that Israel doesn't control
3. Israel doesn't control movement within Gaza, its internal tax revenues, its internal energy supplies, or its internal economy. Any proof to support your claims?

But you have missed my point in this thread. The morale-breaking suffering and hopelessness which Palestinian Arabs feel are as much to do with Israeli State policy as they are to do with militancy and terrorism by Palestinian groups like Hamas. The misery and periodic dehousing attacks are designed to drive people out of their homeland or into the arms of radical militants where they will be discredited and easier to force out. The same programme used in the other Ocfupied Territories but with different tactics.

The Palestinians are not supposed to endure what the State of Israel is doing to them. They are supposed to leave, be forcibly displaced or if too militant and determined then die, all outcomes by design, so that Eretz-Israel can slowly be realised over generations. The State of Israel is playing a very long and brutal game for the sake of a thin veneer of deniability. That is why it makes such efforts to muzzle the mainstream press, Israeli organisations like Breaking the Silence or B'Tselem and independent reportage on social media. Low and slow is the profile that has been adopted for this land and people clearing project by the State of Israel.
As I showed you there is no proof for these claims. In the last years the Palestinian population is increasing, and there is not a single village/neighborhood that was "cleared" or "displaced".
Israel attacks building in Gaza to stop Hamas rocket fire. Any building destroyed is rebuilt and repopulated by the Palestinians.
 

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It is one big mess. And desperate people will resort to desperate measures.
I am suggesting that that is a human trait.
Not all desperate people will resort to desperate measures, and those who do should target the "desperate measures" toward Hamas, not Israel.
Yes, it's a natural human triat to make mistakes. But one cannot blame Israel for the mistakes of the Palestinians.
 

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Suppose for the sake of argument you lived every day knowing that the government could legally bomb your home, and you had no recourse. That was your life. Nowhere to escape. You couldn't stop it, you couldn't leave, you couldn't vote your way out.

Do you think for just one minute that maybe, just maybe, you would be at a greater risk of becoming radicalized?
So you not only want to ignore the immediate context in which Israel mostly drops bombs (retaliation/targeting of enemy combatants) but also most of the socio-political context too? In order to make your point that... what? Becoming a terrorist is "expected"?

You didn't comment on whether you also "expect" black men in America to become radicalized by the risk of police brutality. There are numerous risk factors for radicalization, stress and trauma obviously being among them, but also lack of economic opportunities, poor education, lack of viable alternative routes to change, and indoctrination into extremist ideologies. The last is obviously by far the most important factor, one which is apparently much more widespread in Palestinian society than American. The Arab League and Palestinian leaders made openly genocidal threats against both Jews in Israel and Jews in their own countries before the state of Israel was even established.

Abdul Rahman Azzam, Secretary-General of the Arab League in the month before the UN partition vote: "I personally wish that the Jews do not drive us to this war, as this will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades."​
Amin al-Husseini - the grand mufti of Jerusalem, chairman of the Palestinian representative body the Arab Higher Committee and soon-to-be President of the All-Palestine Government - "said in March 1948 to an interviewer from the Jaffa daily Al Sarih that the Arabs did not intend merely to prevent partition but "would continue fighting until the Zionists were Annihilated."[115]"​
Muhammad Hussein Heykal Pasha, the head of the Egyptian delegation to the General Assembly: "The lives of one million Jews in Muslim countries would be jeopardized by the establishment of a Jewish state."​

Once again I ask you my closing question:
Obviously stressful and dangerous situations will tend to shape people's views and actions; but instead of responding to violence with a 'radical' pacifism or repudiation of violence, why would a society more commonly respond to violence with ineffectual, irrational violence of their own for decade after decade when it obviously hasn't been a successful approach?
 

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Palestinian Arabs have been and are being displaced in the occupied territories since 1967, when the State of Israel militarily occupied these lands as part of a war of aggression which the Israeli State started on June 5th of 1967.
It was not a war of aggression and it wasn't started in 1967. The war of 1948-49 was still ongoing, delayed by armistice but no formal peace... and indeed when Egypt dared to finally make peace in 1979 they were literally suspended from the Arab League for a decade for their impudence! In the lead-up to 1967 hostile acts were perpetrated by Syria (actively diverting natural water supplies which, under the functional multilateral Johnston Plan was intended for use vital to Israel's development) and most immediately by Egypt expelling UN peacekeepers from the Sinai Peninsula and moving their own military forces there, and blocking crucial Israeli shipping through the Straits of Tiran contrary to international law and in full knowledge that it was considered an act of war.

There's plenty of room for criticism of Israel's specific policies, but this kind of historical misinformation really bugs me; painting Israel purely as the bad guys is literally fanning the flames of conflict. The Jewish representatives accepted the 1947 UN partition plan, but the Arabs chose war; Israel then got way more than it bargained for in that conflict in terms of both land and Jewish population. They would've liked all of Jerusalem too, obviously, but there's absolutely no reason there couldn't have been a real and lasting peace made in the 1950s if Jews' access to their holy site were allowed, their shipping in the south weren't blockaded and their waters in the north not screwed with. Simple needs, costing their neighbours nothing, but instead they did precisely the opposite on all three counts; evidently the Arab League couldn't bring themselves to acknowledge that their genocidal war had backfired, and were determined to get it all back. As stated in a 1964 Arab League summit:

The establishment of Israel is the basic threat that the Arab nation in its entirety has agreed to forestall. And since the existence of Israel is a danger that threatens the Arab nation, the diversion of the Jordan waters by it multiplies the dangers to Arab existence. Accordingly, the Arab states have to prepare the plans necessary for dealing with the political, economic and social aspects, so that if necessary results are not achieved, collective Arab military preparations, when they are not completed, will constitute the ultimate practical means for the final liquidation of Israel.[5]
 

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Perhaps the following statement in the OP was not clear:



This means that for the purpose of this discussion, the Hamas rockets are a separate issue.

So. How are Palestinians expected to live their lives like this without becoming radicalized?

How are Israeli's supposed to live their lives knowing that a terrorist group is operating freely a few miles away......................... without becoming radicalized?
 

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I will focus on the more recent examples because you claim this is an ongoing theory. Palestinians are not "displaced" from Jerusalem, people that live in homes they don't own and refuse to pay rent to the owners are evicted - what's wrong with that?

What's wrong with that? You need to do some homework and then, "What's wrong with that?", can be discussed in an historical and legal context.




In a nutshell, according to the Charter of the UN and the Fourth Geneva Convention Israel as the occupying military power can not change land ownership laws in territories it militarily occupies. Therefore the 1970 law which allowed Israeli Jews to reclaim land they claimed to have lost is null and void and the 1954-56 Jordanian-UN programme to settle Palestinians in homes built on this abandoned land is the only standing law as Sheikh Jarrah was beyond the Green Line in 1949 when the new a State of Israel signed these agreements. Furthermore Israelis who left East Jerusalem were given Palestinian homes in Israel proper and therefore are being compensated twice for their displacement and losses while the Palestinians haven't been compensated at all.

You're right about the Palestinians owing rent, but it was not to Israeli Jews as the Israeli land law of 1970 proclaimed illegally. The rent was owed to a Jordanian organisation but when the Israelis invaded the Occupied Territories it became impossible for these tenants to pay the very nominal and symbolic rents to the Jordanians and the Government of Jordan both excused the owed back rent and vested full ownership into the hands of the Palestinians living in East Jerusalem. However the Israeli courts ignored their country's international legal obligations, ignored their lack of legal jurisdiction, ignored Jordanian and Ottoman legal papers from Turkish archives proving ownership and contesting previous Jewish ownership and also chose to believe and accept as evidence some very error-filled and suspect "Ottoman" documents the authenticity of which have since been repeatedly called into question.

That just not true:

Yes it is. The former mayor of West Jerusalem publicly confirmed it and then rather quickly became the deputy mayor right after spilling the beans.
1. Israel control it's border with Gaza as any other country that controls its borders, and only forbids weapons entering Gaza.
Israeli troops maintain security zones inside the frontiers of Gaza and keep boots on the ground in these zones for repair of the zones and for defence of the Israeli frontier.
2. Gaza has a border with Egypt that Israel doesn't control
The treaty between Egypt, Israel and other multilateral partners gives the State of Israel the power to demand the Egyptians close the Egyptian-Gaza crossings.
3. Israel doesn't control movement within Gaza, its internal tax revenues, its internal energy supplies, or its internal economy. Any proof to support your claims?
Targetted killings in Gaza, raids into Gaza, repeated Gaza Wars, aircraft and drone flights in Gaza's airspace, Israeli naval control of Gaza's littoral waters and the restriction of fishing and finally regular bombing/missile attacks of targets in Gaza are just a few ways the State of Israel remotely occupies and controls movements in Gaza.

Continued next post.
 

Evilroddy

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Continued from previous post.

As I showed you there is no proof for these claims. In the last years the Palestinian population is increasing, and there is not a single village/neighborhood that was "cleared" or "displaced".
You have showed nothing. You have made assertions and declarations without supporting evidence.

The median life expectancy for Arab Palestinians in Gaza is 28 years of age. Israeli policies are killing Palestinian Arabs at a very high rate. The only reason the population is still increasing is that these desperate people are out-breeding the death rate caused by the lethal policies of privation, demoralisation and outright killing being meted out to them by the State of Israel. The revenge of the cradle as they say.
Israel attacks building in Gaza to stop Hamas rocket fire. Any building destroyed is rebuilt and repopulated by the Palestinians.
The State of Israel attacks civilian-packed buildings with missiles, ground-penetrating bombs and artillery regularly, killing hundreds or thousands of Palestinian civilians while getting precious few militants. It does this because it won't risk its soldiers in ground combat, even if that means extremely high civilian deaths and injuries among innocent Palestinians who are collaterally killed. The State of Israel has thus made a choice to kill these civilians, whether it wants to admit it or not.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.
 
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oneworld2

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How exactly are Palestinians supposed to live like this? How can one reasonably expect that they won't become radicalized when they can't even sleep without the fear of getting bombed by Israel?

(This question is specific to Palestinians and their day-to-day lives.)

To quote Moshe Dayan on what to do about the Palestinians

" We have no solution.................. you ( Palestinians) shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever wishes may leave,and we will see where this process leads "


In fact, dogs in my country probably lead much better lives than many/most people in Gaza do.

Do you ever think it suits the state of Israel to have just enough people " radicalized" so as to claim there is nothing to negotiate with ? The war on terror is the same tactic imo , you abuse/violate people and destroy their lives and those radicalized serve as the reason for your ongoing violations and abuses of them.
 

Phys251

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To quote Moshe Dayan on what to do about the Palestinians

" We have no solution.................. you ( Palestinians) shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever wishes may leave,and we will see where this process leads "


In fact, dogs in my country probably lead much better lives than many/most people in Gaza do.

Do you ever think it suits the state of Israel to have just enough people " radicalized" so as to claim there is nothing to negotiate with ? The war on terror is the same tactic imo , you abuse/violate people and destroy their lives and those radicalized serve as the reason for your ongoing violations and abuses of them.

That's a good question. I wonder if that's why Israel continues to treat all Palestinians as they do.
 

Monica33

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You vote for Terrorists and what do you get ?Hamas rockets and Iranian Generals buried in the Gaza underground cities ,

US should concentrate on getting Hamas out from its own land -- Ilhan has the greatest concentration of terrorists in her own district in Minnesota .

There are no Palestinians . Just people who allowed Hamas to take control .
 

oneworld2

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That's a good question. I wonder if that's why Israel continues to treat all Palestinians as they do.


Well, a follow up question would be, why does Israel always scupper any attempts at PA/Hamas conciliation talks/initiatives? Why do they interfere with Palestinian political processes?

It would appear that the last thing Israel wants to see is the Palestinians forming a truly democratically elected national council that is truly representative of the Palestinian people. It serves its expansionist interests to keep the Palestinians at each others throats with a solid rejectionist wing. The cry of " we have nobody to negotiate with ", " we won't negotiate with terrorists" etc etc is exactly the type of rhetoric that serves an expansionist agenda so as to change the facts on the ground to suit the future annexation of most of the illegal settlements and the human shield illegal settlers that are living in them.

The war on terror gives us another example of how crimes against the peoples of official enemies/obstacles etc serve as recruiting officers for the opposition. A self perpetuating operation that will always provide the excuses needed to carry out further crimes.
 
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