Bomb disposal squad in Gaza faces risks amid little protection

[Serenity]

Not happy about it, but I can't think of a better strategy given Hamas infrastructure hides in those apartment buildings. AFAIK the residents of those apartment building were always warned in advance to evacuate the building bafore the fatal strike.


Gaza has a border with Egypt that Israel doesn't control, they can use that.

This is not correct.

The Rafah Border Crossing has been closed for long periods over the years. Palestinians can't just cross over to escape hostilities. I've posted about this extensively.

First post is bang smack in the middle of the recent hostilities that commenced the 10th of May. Palestinians had no way out to escape. Crossing was closed until the 16th May.

The Rafah border crossing is closed. Again.

From a humanitarian standpoint, I'm against the closure. Rafah is Gaza's only international border crossing and there needs to be an exit/entry point allowed for humanitarian reasons to get non combatants - ordinary people/humanitarian supplies in or out as required.

Actually following el-Sisi’s rise to power in 2014, Egypt has kept the Rafah crossing closed for the most part to all Palestinians, which obviously included the sick and injured, humanitarian workers and much needed supplies. Closing the crossing has become the normal rule, and opening it has become the exception.

That being said, Sisi has said that he will keep the Rafah crossing with Gaza open for the entire month of Ramadan.

Taking action to stamp out militant activity along the border is not a human rights Violation. The Egyptians do have the right to seek to defend their border with the Gaza Strip.

What is a human rights violation is the Egyptian authorities decision to permanently close the Rafah Crossing to everyone which included the sick and injured, humanitarian workers and much needed supplies. Closing the crossing has became the normal rule, and opening it has become the exception. That being said, they did open the crossing two weeks ago for four days to allow Palestinians to travel in both directions for the first time in two months.

At the very least Sisi must open the Rafah crossing when required for humanitarian purposes.

There's more but you get the picture. Please don't insinuate the Palestinians can just leave as they please. That is not accurate.

 

[OrphanSlug]

These stories are all the evidence I need to conclude neither side is interested in peace, both are interested in continued conflict and loss of life… just to make an emotional plea about it.

At this point there is no where for the Palestinians to go, and no one in power who will really help them as those who are in control are all too happy to lob rockets over into Israel.

 

[Valaisee]

This is not correct.

The Rafah Border Crossing has been closed for long periods over the years. Palestinians can't just cross over to escape hostilities. I've posted about this extensively.

First post is bang smack in the middle of the recent hostilities that commenced the 10th of May. Palestinians had no way out to escape. Crossing was closed until the 16th May.


There's more but you get the picture. Please don't insinuate the Palestinians can just leave as they please. That is not accurate.

I responded to a claim that Israel is holding them in.
This is yet another example to show that the suffering of Palestinians has little to do with Israel, but with internal Palestinian/Arab/Muslim struggles.

 

[Valaisee]

In a nutshell,
...
contesting previous Jewish ownership and also chose to believe and accept as evidence some very error-filled and suspect "Ottoman" documents the authenticity of which have since been repeatedly called into question.

I pass through your links and couldn't find any support four your claims (even though both non-Wikipedia links are not objective): no support for the 1970 law is "null and void", or that the rent is owned to Jorden, or to the false claim that Jordan vested full ownership to the Palestinians (it did for other Palestinians but not for the evicted families).
Professional legal experts in the court read through all the evidence and ruled that they are to be evicted, but you have no evidence to back up your claims.

Israeli troops maintain security zones inside the frontiers of Gaza and keep boots on the ground in these zones for repair of the zones and for defence of the Israeli frontier.

Every war border has a buffer zone, and that doesn't explain how Israel controls the rest 99.99% of Gaza.

The treaty between Egypt, Israel and other multilateral partners gives the State of Israel the power to demand the Egyptians close the Egyptian-Gaza crossings.

A false claim, any proof that Israel forced Egypt to close their crossing?

Targetted killings in Gaza, raids into Gaza, repeated Gaza Wars, aircraft and drone flights in Gaza's airspace, Israeli naval control of Gaza's littoral waters and the restriction of fishing and finally regular bombing/missile attacks of targets in Gaza are just a few ways the State of Israel remotely occupies and controls movements in Gaza.

Israel does this only as a defensive response to Hamas attacks. Again, that doesn't explain how Israel controls Gaza the rest 99% of the time.

The State of Israel attacks civilian-packed buildings with missiles, ground-penetrating bombs and artillery regularly, killing hundreds or thousands of Palestinian civilians while getting precious few militants. It does this because it won't risk its soldiers in ground combat, even if that means extremely high civilian deaths and injuries among innocent Palestinians who are collaterally killed. The State of Israel has thus made a choice to kill these civilians, whether it wants to admit it or not.

"killing hundreds or thousands of Palestinians civilians"? Even Hamas claims that around 250 civilians died - do you have some evidence for this claim?

You have showed nothing. You have made assertions and declarations without supporting evidence.

The median life expectancy for Arab Palestinians in Gaza is 28 years of age. Israeli policies are killing Palestinian Arabs at a very high rate. The only reason the population is still increasing is that these desperate people are out-breeding the death rate caused by the lethal policies of privation, demoralisation and outright killing being meted out to them by the State of Israel. The revenge of the cradle as they say.

First you need to show evidence for your initial claims. Nevertheless I will give you some for free:

Gaza Strip Demographics Profile

www.indexmundi.com

Life expectancy at birth

total population: 74.9 years male: 73.1 years female: 76.7 years (2020 est.)

Far from "28", and he birth rate is not exceptionally high.
"Israeli policies are killing Palestinian Arabs at a very high rate" is also far from the truth - do you have some evidence?

 

[Valaisee]

To quote Moshe Dayan on what to do about the Palestinians

" We have no solution.................. you ( Palestinians) shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever wishes may leave,and we will see where this process leads "

MOSHE DAYAN quotes and sayings

MOSHE DAYAN famous quotes. I know of nothing more exciting than war....

www.inspiringquotes.us

In fact, dogs in my country probably lead much better lives than many/most people in Gaza do.

Do you ever think it suits the state of Israel to have just enough people " radicalized" so as to claim there is nothing to negotiate with ? The war on terror is the same tactic imo , you abuse/violate people and destroy their lives and those radicalized serve as the reason for your ongoing violations and abuses of them.

You misinterpreted his words, he didn't say that Israel will make them live like dogs, that is your addition.

That's a good question. I wonder if that's why Israel continues to treat all Palestinians as they do.

First, still waiting for (preferably recent) examples of Israels abuses/violations.
Second, history is full with mistreated people that didn't "radicalize" to the point of terrorism, including Jews that lived for centuries in Europe and were many times really harshly mistreated.
History is also full of corrupt tyrants as the Palestinian (and Arab) leadership that mistreated their own people and redirected their anger at an external group, as Israel.

 

[Valaisee]

Well, a follow up question would be, why does Israel always scupper any attempts at PA/Hamas conciliation talks/initiatives? Why do they interfere with Palestinian political processes?

It would appear that the last thing Israel wants to see is the Palestinians forming a truly democratically elected national council that is truly representative of the Palestinian people. It serves its expansionist interests to keep the Palestinians at each others throats with a solid rejectionist wing. The cry of " we have nobody to negotiate with ", " we won't negotiate with terrorists" etc etc is exactly the type of rhetoric that serves an expansionist agenda so as to change the facts on the ground to suit the future annexation of most of the illegal settlements and the human shield illegal settlers that are living in them.

The war on terror gives us another example of how crimes against the peoples of official enemies/obstacles etc serve as recruiting officers for the opposition. A self perpetuating operation that will always provide the excuses needed to carry out further crimes.

Israel has no way to "scupper" PA/Hamas conciliation talk. They can talk with each other freely and work together if they really want and there is nothing Israel can do.
Any evidence to this "theory"?

 

[Serenity]

I responded to a claim that Israel is holding them in.
This is yet another example to show that the suffering of Palestinians has little to do with Israel, but with internal Palestinian/Arab/Muslim struggles.

You also made it appear as though Palestinians can just mosey on out through the Rafah Border Crossing to escape hostilities whenever they feel like it. Which is factually incorrect.

 

[Valaisee]

You also made it appear as though Palestinians can just mosey on out through the Rafah Border Crossing to escape hostilities whenever they feel like it. Which is factually incorrect.

The Palestinians could freely solve the diplomatic issues with Egypt and open the crossing if they really wanted to.

 

[Evilroddy]

I pass through your links and couldn't find any support four your claims (even though both non-Wikipedia links are not objective): no support for the 1970 law is "null and void", or that the rent is owned to Jorden, or to the false claim that Jordan vested full ownership to the Palestinians (it did for other Palestinians but not for the evicted families).
Professional legal experts in the court read through all the evidence and ruled that they are to be evicted, but you have no evidence to back up your claims.

Well they're in there. Maybe you should read them rather than passing through them.

Every war border has a buffer zone, and that doesn't explain how Israel controls the rest 99.99% of Gaza.

I explained how Israel controls Gaza with stand-off sensors and stand-off weapons.

A false claim, any proof that Israel forced Egypt to close their crossing?

The State of Israel has had an agreement with Egypt concerning Gaza frontier security along the inter-Gaza-Egypt border since it unilaterally pulled out of Gaza in 2005. It uses the US Government as a proxy to withold military aid from Egypt when it wants the Egyptians to tighten or close the frontier and when Egypt refuses to do as the State of Israel says.

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL34346.pdf

Israel does this only as a defensive response to Hamas attacks. Again, that doesn't explain how Israel controls Gaza the rest 99% of the time.

Operation Rainbow was not a response to attacks (it was a tunnel hunt) but hundreds of Palestinian homes were destroyed by the IDF in order to clear a wide swath of Gazan territory along the Gaza-Egyptian Frontier in 2004 IIRC.

"killing hundreds or thousands of Palestinians civilians"? Even Hamas claims that around 250 civilians died - do you have some evidence for this claim?

I wrote hundreds OR thousands, not hundreds of thousands.

First you need to show evidence for your initial claims. Nevertheless I will give you some for free:

Gaza Strip Demographics Profile

www.indexmundi.com

Far from "28", and he birth rate is not exceptionally high.
"Israeli policies are killing Palestinian Arabs at a very high rate" is also far from the truth - do you have some evidence?

The mean age of Gazan Palestinians is 28 years and the median age is 18 years. See:

The reasons why Gaza's population is so young

High birth rates and low employment among women make Gaza a demographic enigma in the modern world

www.newscientist.com

As to Gazan deaths from Israeli attack and siege; that is well documented and can be found with ease by anyone who wants to find it. I am tired of providing evidence for factual information because other posters can't be bothered to look up commonly known facts. You have made repeated errors in this thread while responding to my posts. Now it is your turn to do your own homework before you get back to me.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[Evilroddy]

You misinterpreted his words, he didn't say that Israel will make them live like dogs, that is your addition.

First, still waiting for (preferably recent) examples of Israels abuses/violations.
Second, history is full with mistreated people that didn't "radicalize" to the point of terrorism, including Jews that lived for centuries in Europe and were many times really harshly mistreated.
History is also full of corrupt tyrants as the Palestinian (and Arab) leadership that mistreated their own people and redirected their anger at an external group, as Israel.

Valaisee:

You're wrong again. The quote comes from a book by Israeli writer Yossi Beilin called "Mehiro shel Ihud 42-43" (Revivim, 1985). It was quoted by Noam Chomsky in the early 1990's and he made its present and shortened form famous. The quote came from a hawkish centre-left RAFI Party meeting in September of 1967. In the meeting Moshe Dayan and Shimon Perez were arguing over what to do with Palestinian Arab refugees. The full quote translated into English is:

An argument between Dayan and Peres at the same meeting demonstrates a very extreme approach regarding the Palestinian refugees. Moshe Dayan states during this discussion "let's say 'we don't have a solution, and you will continue living like dogs, and whoever wants will go, and we'll see how this procedure will work out.' For now, it works out. Let's say the truth. We want peace. If there is no peace, we will maintain military rule and we will have four to five military compounds on the mountains, and they will sit ten years under the Israeli military regime. Whoever wants to go, will want. It's possible that in five years, there will be 200,000 fewer people, and that's an enormous thing."

RAFI secretary Shimon Peres retorts, "we could act like Rhodesia, but we need to avoid that. Putting aside our standing in the world, there is a problem for ourselves. We need to consider how to maintain Israel's moral status, and let's not ignore that." To that, Dayan replies, "Ben-Gurion said that whoever approaches the Zionistic problem in the moral aspect is not a Zionist."

Conclusion: oneworld2's quote does clearly and accurately represent the essence of extended quote which Chomsky then abbreviated in his 1992 book, "Deterring Democracy".

You have more homework to do, I'm afraid.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[Evilroddy]

Readers can figure out total Palestinian civilian deaths since 1948 from this chart below:

Palestinian casualties of war - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[Valaisee]

Well they're in there. Maybe you should read them rather than passing through them.

I read them, can you quote from Wikipedia (the only unbiased source from the 3) evidence for your claims? Couldn't find any.

I explained how Israel controls Gaza with stand-off sensors and stand-off weapons.

You only explained how Israels defends its border using a thin buffer zone, what with the rest 99.99% of Gaza?

The State of Israel has had an agreement with Egypt concerning Gaza frontier security along the inter-Gaza-Egypt border since it unilaterally pulled out of Gaza in 2005. It uses the US Government as a proxy to withold military aid from Egypt when it wants the Egyptians to tighten or close the frontier and when Egypt refuses to do as the State of Israel says.

https://fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL34346.pdf

Your attachment doesn't support your claim:

Israel claims that ongoing smuggling of sophisticated weaponry into the Gaza Strip could dramatically strengthen the military capabilities of Hamas,
...
The United States, which occasionally is thrust into the middle of disputes between Israel and Egypt, has attempted to broker a solution to the smuggling problem which is amenable to all parties

The issue was only on smuggling of weapons to Gaza, not "tighten or close the frontier".

Operation Rainbow was not a response to attacks (it was a tunnel hunt) but hundreds of Palestinian homes were destroyed by the IDF in order to clear a wide swath of Gazan territory along the Gaza-Egyptian Frontier in 2004 IIRC.

False, it was a response of multiple attacks:

2004 Israeli operation in Rafah - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

In response to a repeated shelling of Israeli communities with Qassam rockets and mortar shells from Gaza, the IDF operated...

And, this was in 2004, before Israel left Gaza in 2005.

I wrote hundreds OR thousands, not hundreds of thousands.

Sorry, misread that, still, "thousands" is incorrect. I will respond to this again:

The State of Israel attacks civilian-packed buildings with missiles, ground-penetrating bombs and artillery regularly, killing hundreds or thousands of Palestinian civilians while getting precious few militants. It does this because it won't risk its soldiers in ground combat, even if that means extremely high civilian deaths and injuries among innocent Palestinians who are collaterally killed. The State of Israel has thus made a choice to kill these civilians, whether it wants to admit it or not.

As previous wars with Hamas proves, soldiers in the ground will result with far more civilian casualties. Do you really expect Israel to do that?

The mean age of Gazan Palestinians is 28 years and the median age is 18 years. See:

The reasons why Gaza's population is so young

High birth rates and low employment among women make Gaza a demographic enigma in the modern world

www.newscientist.com

Yous said:

the median life expectancy for Arab Palestinians in Gaza is 28 years of age

but, I accept that it may have been a mistake.
Your link clearly says:

So why are there so many children in Gaza? Demographers say it’s a combination of unusual factors. One is that an unusually low proportion of Palestinian women hold jobs.
...
The second factor contributing to the high fertility rate is the fact that while women are housebound, their husbands earn more money as their families expand.

So this has noting to do with Israel.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Bomb disposal squad in Gaza faces risks amid little protection

The squad has carried out 1,200 missions to neutralise, defuse and destroy unexploded warheads in residential areas.

www.aljazeera.com

How exactly are Palestinians supposed to live like this? How can one reasonably expect that they won't become radicalized when they can't even sleep without the fear of getting bombed by Israel?

(This question is specific to Palestinians and their day-to-day lives.)

Who cares how the Arabs are supposed to live? They have been offered numerous deals and peace offers and have refused them because they want to racially cleanse the Jews.

The children will be brought up in this environment and will be the next generation of suicide bombers. It’s sad, but the Palestinian adults want their kids to die from Israel and we can’t protect them from their own parents

 

[Valaisee]

You're wrong again. The quote comes from a book by Israeli writer Yossi Beilin called "Mehiro shel Ihud 42-43" (Revivim, 1985). It was quoted by Noam Chomsky in the early 1990's and he made its present and shortened form famous. The quote came from a hawkish centre-left RAFI Party meeting in September of 1967. In the meeting Moshe Dayan and Shimon Perez were arguing over what to do with Palestinian Arab refugees. The full quote translated into English is:

Conclusion: oneworld2's quote does clearly and accurately represent the essence of extended quote which Chomsky then abbreviated in his 1992 book, "Deterring Democracy".

I'm responding to the quotes directly, if more data is needed to explain them it should have also be quoted.
As your quotes show his words doesn't reflect the official strategy chosen by the government. What some individual said is irrelevant - only the actual actions of Israel. You haven't given any real evidence of Israel actions that support your claims.

 

[Valaisee]

Readers can figure out total Palestinian civilian deaths since 1948 from this chart below:

Palestinian casualties of war - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

In order for your initial "theory" to be correct:

The Palestinians are not supposed to live this way. They are supposed to leave, be displaced or if militants, die as members of a surplus population which is unwanted by the occupying colonialist power in order to clear the land for incorporation into the ever growing frontiers of Eretz Israel.

Israel need to displace/kill at least hundreds of thousands of Palestinians every year. Until you have evidence for these huge number, your theory is unaligned with reality.

 

[Chagos]

Valaisee:

You're wrong again. The quote comes from a book by Israeli writer Yossi Beilin called "Mehiro shel Ihud 42-43" (Revivim, 1985). It was quoted by Noam Chomsky in the early 1990's and he made its present and shortened form famous. The quote came from a hawkish centre-left RAFI Party meeting in September of 1967. In the meeting Moshe Dayan and Shimon Perez were arguing over what to do with Palestinian Arab refugees. ................~

It was, nitpicking as this may come across, an argument over what to tell them, NOT what to do with them.

As is also known, the Palestinian refugees that Israel suddenly saw itself as having to deal with (on account of having conquered the West Bank from Jordan) were never told (addressed) in this manner.

One may feel that it was an expression of exasperation over a "new" problem, or that it was an actual reflection of Dayan's general outlook, but neither can be evidenced.

But in either case it doesn't make Dayan look good.

 

[Evilroddy]

It was, nitpicking as this may come across, an argument over what to tell them, NOT what to do with them.

As is also known, the Palestinian refugees that Israel suddenly saw itself as having to deal with (on account of having conquered the West Bank from Jordan) were never told (addressed) in this manner.

One may feel that it was an expression of exasperation over a "new" problem, or that it was an actual reflection of Dayan's general outlook, but neither can be evidenced.

But in either case it doesn't make Dayan look good.

Chagos:

Nor David Ben-Gurion. But the point of digging up the original quote in translated form was to prove that Noam Chomsky's summation which oneworld2 cited was correct and Valaisee misspoke when he said the cited quote was false when he claimed the dogs simply was not Dayan's.

As to nit-picking, perhaps it's only irony that what Dayan said came to pass for much longer than he predicted.

I think the quote was quite prescient in that it predicted the need for a long period of Israeli heavy-handed military occupation which would be required to encourage the Palestinian Arabs to be seen off and the quote was also quite naive in thinking that just ten years would do it. Here, just over 54 years later and the violent Palestinian resistance and violent Israeli military/judicial oppression continues, but the Palestinian Arabs hold firm in their resolve to stay in their homeland too. One land, two peoples. No compromise.

Thank God for Shimon Perez is my take away from this whole sorted affair in September of 1967.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[Chagos]

Chagos:

Nor David Ben-Gurion. But the point of digging up the original quote in translated form was to prove that Noam Chomsky's summation which oneworld2 cited was correct and Valaisee misspoke when he said the cited quote was false when he claimed the dogs simply was not Dayan's.

As to nit-picking, perhaps it's only irony that what Dayan said came to pass for much longer than he predicted.

I think the quote was quite prescient in that it predicted the need for a long period of Israeli heavy-handed military occupation which would be required to encourage the Palestinian Arabs to be seen off and the quote was also quite naive in thinking that just ten years would do it. Here, just over 54 years later and the violent Palestinian resistance and violent Israeli military/judicial oppression continues, but the Palestinian Arabs hold firm in their resolve to stay in their homeland too. One land, two peoples. No compromise.

Thank God for Shimon Perez is my take away from this whole sorted affair in September of 1967.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

Leaving aside Valaisee's response on the matter (and most certainly practically anything that OW2 states, as far I'm concerned), it would help to understand that Chomsky has a history of quote mining when it serves his purpose.

Like, in this case, leaving out what Dayan said next as in " "For now, it works out. Let's say the truth. We want peace. If there is no peace, we will maintain military rule and we will have four to five military compounds on the hills, and they will sit ten years under the Israeli military regime."

So the quote, by what sources we have available, does not reflect a long-term "plan" by Israel, it reflected Dayan's take of an alternative to a peace deal with Jordan, should such a deal be beyond achievement.

He even expressed willingness to divide authority over the West Bank with Jordan and spoke of a 10 year period of Israeli presence (not a permanent one).

N.B. at the party meeting, not to Jordan itself.

None of which takes anything from the abysmal situation as it was then, let alone into what it has developed into since.

 

[Evilroddy]

I'm responding to the quotes directly, if more data is needed to explain them it should have also be quoted.
As your quotes show his words doesn't reflect the official strategy chosen by the government. What some individual said is irrelevant - only the actual actions of Israel. You haven't given any real evidence of Israel actions that support your claims.

Valaisee:

Here are two documents out
Innit what the State of Israel has been doing.

https://www.icj.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Israel-Road-to-Annexion-Advocacy-Analysis-brief-2019-ENG.pdf

The Roots of Israel’s Annexation Policy

Although Israel/Palestine has two peoples with two different deeply rooted rights to the land, there is only one international consensus. Peace begins there.

carnegieendowment.org

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[Valaisee]

Here are two documents out
Innit what the State of Israel has been doing.

https://www.icj.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Israel-Road-to-Annexion-Advocacy-Analysis-brief-2019-ENG.pdf

The Roots of Israel’s Annexation Policy

Although Israel/Palestine has two peoples with two different deeply rooted rights to the land, there is only one international consensus. Peace begins there.

carnegieendowment.org

Both documents only talk about land annexation.
Could not find any examples for mass displacement and killing of Palestinians as you claim.

 

[oneworld2]

Leaving aside Valaisee's response on the matter (and most certainly practically anything that OW2 states, as far I'm concerned), it would help to understand that Chomsky has a history of quote mining when it serves his purpose.

Like, in this case, leaving out what Dayan said next as in " "For now, it works out. Let's say the truth. We want peace. If there is no peace, we will maintain military rule and we will have four to five military compounds on the hills, and they will sit ten years under the Israeli military regime."

So the quote, by what sources we have available, does not reflect a long-term "plan" by Israel, it reflected Dayan's take of an alternative to a peace deal with Jordan, should such a deal be beyond achievement.

He even expressed willingness to divide authority over the West Bank with Jordan and spoke of a 10 year period of Israeli presence (not a permanent one).

N.B. at the party meeting, not to Jordan itself.

None of which takes anything from the abysmal situation as it was then, let alone into what it has developed into since.

Valaisee's assertion was wrong and has shown to be wrong. You leaving that out so as to carry on your smear campaign is valuable only as an illustration of just how triggered you have become.


You also recently tried to dupe readers here by citing a Likud document from 2006 to try to discredit a document I had cited from their 1999 platform paper. As though the two were on and the same.

You are not in a position to sully virtually anybody here let alone someone with the moral fortitude of Chomsky , that you think you are shows a breathtaking lack of self awareness imo

Dayan said he/ Israel wanted peace at the time but years later admiited to Israel initiating around 80% of the border skirmishes with Syrian forces in order to induce a reaction so as to ensure a military exchange. This is in the immediate period preceding his comments cited above, the period that led to the Israeli attack on the Arabs in 1967.

Evilroddy is right imo, Dayans words are only illustrative of Israel wish to hold on to conquered territories, for " ten years" if need be but in that estimate he was clearly wrong. The building of illegal settlements from that time on and the treatment of the settlers and those illegally occupied and settled that have been condemned to suffer it show his words to be highly accurate. And, pre-empting a response that will claim that occupations are not illegal ( cherrypick those laws) I believe they are when they are lasting over half a century, incorporating the transfer of illegal settlers and protecting illegal annexations of actual land being occupied. Tht's way more than what can be classed an an authentic military occupation

 

[Valaisee]

Evilroddy is right imo, Dayans words are only illustrative of Israel wish to hold on to conquered territories, for " ten years" if need be but in that estimate he was clearly wrong. The building of illegal settlements from that time on and the treatment of the settlers and those illegally occupied and settled that have been condemned to suffer it show his words to be highly accurate

I understand you think the settlements are illegal, bu why Jews living near you in an empty unused land is "suffering"?

And, pre-empting a response that will claim that occupations are not illegal ( cherrypick those laws) I believe they are when they are lasting over half a century, incorporating the transfer of illegal settlers and protecting illegal annexations of actual land being occupied. Tht's way more than what can be classed an an authentic military occupation

The settlements are not illegal because there is no moral or logical basics to the opinion that 100% of the West-Bank belongs to the Palestinians.

 

[oneworld2]

I understand you think the settlements are illegal, bu why Jews living near you in an empty unused land is "suffering"?


The settlements are not illegal because there is no moral or logical basics to the opinion that 100% of the West-Bank belongs to the Palestinians.

In the advisory opinion on the annexation wall Israel has built, the decision was called on the legality of the settlements. The panel decided that the 4th GC applied and thus all of the settlements are illegal. That's the legal aspect. The " moral and logical" claims are , likewise, imo firmly stacked in favour of the Palestinian side. The only reason people would argue on " moral and logical " grounds and believe they are right, imo, is if they think Jews are superior to Arabs and/or should have superior rights granted to them than the law applies to others.

What percentages are thrashed out in land swap deals in a just resolution of the conflict aside, the law states that it is illegal to acquire territory via warfare and Israel signed up, voluntarily, to abide by those laws. All of the settlements and all of the settlers living in them are illegal.

 

[Evilroddy]

Both documents only talk about land annexation.
Could not find any examples for mass displacement and killing of Palestinians as you claim.

Valaisee:

Mass displacement, mass killings? I never said that these were mass events. They're slow and relentless events on a small scale punctuated by moments of violence which kill or displace many Palestinian Arabs, although it is regularly happening on a much smaller scale. I said the killings and displacements are designed to so demoralise the Palestinian Arabs that they opt out of desperation to leave their homelands. That was the plan discussed in the meeting which was the source of Moshe Dayan's comments and even if it was not officially adopted by that party/group of politicians in September of 1967, it is the defacto policy of the State of Israel today. .

But this is not just state colonialism, it's settler colonialism too and thus the prime actors are the settlers with the backing of the State of Israel. While the IDF and IDA have certainly killed and wounded many Palestinian Arabs and while these two arms of the Stete of Israel have been instrumental in dehousing, displacing and walling off Palestinian Arabs and destroying Palestinian infrastructure, it is the militant settlers themselves who are inflicting the bulk of the everyday pressure and stress on Palestinian Arabs in much of the Occupied Territories. This behaviour is illegal and the State of Israel has a legal obligation to stop it, but instead it openly sponsors illegal settlements and discreetly supports settle violence towards Palestinian Arabs.

The ICJ document not only describes the land annexation policies of the State of Israel. It also goes into great detail about the methods both the State of Israel and Israeli settlers are going to, in order to displace and ghetto Palestinian Arabs in the Occupied Terretories. If you had read the documents fully, then you would have realised this.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.

 

[Evilroddy]

The Palestinians could freely solve the diplomatic issues with Egypt and open the crossing if they really wanted to.

Valaisee:

No they can't. The State of Israel uses its influence with the US Government to withold tens of millions of US dollars of military aid to Egypt if they disagree with Egyptian-Palestinian frontier policy. I have already documented this to you earlier in this thread. The El-Sisi military junta of Egypt does not want to forgo that money.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.