Biden calls for war crimes trial after Bucha images surface

[Litwin]

How will the West respond to Russian war crimes? | Conflict Zone​

 

[Lutherf]

How will the West respond to Russian war crimes? | Conflict Zone​

They will respond the same way they have responded to the war as a whole. They will wag fingers, make passionate speeches and do nothing of substance. That's the same plan that contributed to this disaster and every other such disaster mankind has suffered at the hands of maniacs.

 

[D_NATURED]

In other words, our war crimes are okay because we had good intentions!

Yeah, not the way it works bud.

It sort of is that way. We DO have the moral high ground. We actually prosecute our own for war crimes, and are free to say they were crimes. Go to Russia or China (please) and try calling them war criminals. You'd end up in a prison camp or dead.

 

[MTAtech]

They will respond the same way they have responded to the war as a whole. They will wag fingers, make passionate speeches and do nothing of substance. That's the same plan that contributed to this disaster and every other such disaster mankind has suffered at the hands of maniacs.

I believe "do nothing" has a different meaning to you than it does to me. I see the U.S. and NATO allies sending billions of dollars worth of military equipment and humanitarian aide to Ukraine. The U.S. sent something like half the Stinger missiles in our inventory. I can't see how you think that is nothing.

 

[Lutherf]

I believe "do nothing" has a different meaning to you than it does to me. I see the U.S. and NATO allies sending billions of dollars worth of military equipment and humanitarian aide to Ukraine. The U.S. sent something like half the Stinger missiles in our inventory. I can't see how you think that is nothing.

Yes. We sent some MANPADS and some light anti-armor equipment. We sent some drones and, I assume, we shared some intelligence. That's not "nothing" but it was well below the threshold for the type of support that may well have stopped Russia from invading in the first part and certainly below the threshold for the type of support that would get them to stop.

Russia invaded in 2014 and we did next to nothing. Russia skirmished along the border for years and we did nothing. Russia moved in for a full blown invasion and we did nothing even though we got on TV daily and talked about how we KNEW they would invade. Russia invaded and we imposed little more than middling sanctions and offered Zelensky asylum. Our plan at that point was OBVIOUSLY to sacrifice Ukraine and appease Putin. Zelensky fought and we did nothing for WEEKS! When others offered to do something we blew their plan out of the water!

We watched as people's homes were destroyed. We watched as schools and hospitals were blown to bits. We watched as refugee convoys were attacked. What was our plan to address these matters? It was to do as little as possible because anything more might piss Putin off. We were content to watch Ukrainians have their lives destroyed as long as we didn't have to be involved and we patted ourselves on the back for the few trinkets we tossed their way.

Well, now we see something that shocks the conscience. Well, it would shock the conscience if our leaders actually had one. What's happened now is that the political narrative is all ****ed up by these atrocities in Bucha. Now we're forced to acknowledge that all our hand wringing and finger pointing did NOTHING to prevent this. We have to admit that if it's that bad in Bucha it may well be WORSE elsewhere and THAT damned sure won't help at the polls in November so now we need a new narrative and that narrative is "war crimes" and "we actually did do a few things". Brother, we didn't do shit!

If we had only had the balls to stand in and make a solid statement about our defense of Ukraine; if we had only had the COMPASSION to push back against Putin, maybe we could have stopped some of this shit.

 

[Kreton]

In other words, our war crimes are okay because we had good intentions!

Yeah, not the way it works bud.

Continue to be obtuse is you'd like. Doesn't impact me. It doesn't change that you are wrong, doesn't change anything.

 

[Ikari]

It would be a hard thing to actually do, but yes he should be. There's no excuse for Putin's butchery.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Great News for the Libal Order, terrible one for The Golden Horde , Moscow trolls , and Useful Idiots . Biden is 100% right , the first stop destruction of the GH the second one the Hague for the war -criminals !
President Joe Biden on Monday said the atrocities allegedly committed by Russian forces in Bucha, Ukraine, are a "war crime" and called for a trial to take place against Russian President Vladimir Putin.

Biden calls for war crimes trial after Bucha images surface | CNN Politics

President Joe Biden on Monday said the atrocities allegedly committed by Russian forces in Bucha, Ukraine, are a "war crime" and called for a trial to take place against Russian President Vladimir Putin.

edition.cnn.com

‘They were all shot’: "russia" accused of war crimes as Bucha reveals horror of invasion

The executions were part of Putin's plan to invade Ukraine, says MI6 chief Richard Moore

debatepolitics.com

The ukranian army should absolutely be charged for killing civilians in Bucha

 

[Lycanthrope]

Any response from Comrade Carlson, Moscow Marjorie, and/or Tsarist Trump on these atrocities?

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Yes. We sent some MANPADS and some light anti-armor equipment. We sent some drones and, I assume, we shared some intelligence. That's not "nothing" but it was well below the threshold for the type of support that may well have stopped Russia from invading in the first part and certainly below the threshold for the type of support that would get them to stop.

Russia invaded in 2014 and we did next to nothing. Russia skirmished along the border for years and we did nothing. Russia moved in for a full blown invasion and we did nothing even though we got on TV daily and talked about how we KNEW they would invade. Russia invaded and we imposed little more than middling sanctions and offered Zelensky asylum. Our plan at that point was OBVIOUSLY to sacrifice Ukraine and appease Putin. Zelensky fought and we did nothing for WEEKS! When others offered to do something we blew their plan out of the water!

We watched as people's homes were destroyed. We watched as schools and hospitals were blown to bits. We watched as refugee convoys were attacked. What was our plan to address these matters? It was to do as little as possible because anything more might piss Putin off. We were content to watch Ukrainians have their lives destroyed as long as we didn't have to be involved and we patted ourselves on the back for the few trinkets we tossed their way.

Well, now we see something that shocks the conscience. Well, it would shock the conscience if our leaders actually had one. What's happened now is that the political narrative is all ****ed up by these atrocities in Bucha. Now we're forced to acknowledge that all our hand wringing and finger pointing did NOTHING to prevent this. We have to admit that if it's that bad in Bucha it may well be WORSE elsewhere and THAT damned sure won't help at the polls in November so now we need a new narrative and that narrative is "war crimes" and "we actually did do a few things". Brother, we didn't do shit!

If we had only had the balls to stand in and make a solid statement about our defense of Ukraine; if we had only had the COMPASSION to push back against Putin, maybe we could have stopped some of this shit.

Except there’s no evidence of Russian wait crimes in Bucha. The claim is that Russia is binding and shooting people as they withdrew from Bucha, and there’s very little evidence of this. In fact it is Ukranian affiliated militias who’ve been killing people in this way and bragging about it.

The bodies being seen on pictures do not look shot, many may have been killed by Ukranian artillery, many were wearing white armbands, a signal by ukranian who sympathize with Russia to communicate to occupation forces saying they’re on the same side.

Ukranian officials on official channels have been humiliating POWs on official channels, have been telling their volksturm that anyone speaking russian might be a sabatour, one even said Russians in custody would be castrated (before walking it back) and Ukranians have been making threats to shoot civilians especially in Mariupol. So this emotional rant you’re going on condemning Russia for war crimes is showing that Ukranian propaganda is having the intended effect, I don’t know if you’re old enough to remember the Kuwaiti princess who claimed to be a nurse and was saying Iraqi troops were throwing babies out of incubators, just know when the regime media in the US is claiming these types of exaggerated crimes, they will lie and have done so in the past.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Any response from Comrade Carlson, Moscow Marjorie, and/or Tsarist Trump on these atrocities?

Probably that the story is a psyop, for which there is good evidence.

If you ask the simple question “for what reason would Russian forces kill a bunch of unarmed civilians and leave the bodies laying in the streets” the only answer that warhawks can come up with is “because Russia is so bad and evil”

Which is what Ukranian propaganda would say, so it’s right away questionable.

 

[Tigerace117]

It sort of is that way. We DO have the moral high ground. We actually prosecute our own for war crimes, and are free to say they were crimes. Go to Russia or China (please) and try calling them war criminals. You'd end up in a prison camp or dead.

Er.....sometimes. When we’re in the mood to hold our war criminals accountable. Otherwise, we’ll happily turn a blind eye or outright pardon thugs like Eddie Gallagher.

Us being free to acknowledge when we commit atrocities is a good thing! But it doesn’t make said atrocities any less bad.

 

[Tigerace117]

Continue to be obtuse is you'd like. Doesn't impact me. It doesn't change that you are wrong, doesn't change anything.

As I told you before, the laws of war don’t magically go away just because we agree with the folks who commit atrocities.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

 

[MaryP]

Is it a language/technology problem for the Muscovites ️. Dismissing as fake will only make people more angry. Time to stop being timid with these Barbarians. Give the Ukrainians what they need, Tanks and Fighters before The Hordemen succeed in cutting off the South and East.

@cpwill @armycowboy @Bum

You folks have been in active theater. I don't hear you in these threads much. Is what they are finding in Bucha the kind of things one finds in a war zone? Is this what happens, what you see, in war?

Any vets, feel free.

 

[MaryP]

In fact it is Ukranian affiliated militias who’ve been killing people in this way and bragging about it.

Where did you see that? Share?

 

[armycowboy]

@cpwill @armycowboy @Bum

You folks have been in active theater. I don't hear you in these threads much. Is what they are finding in Bucha the kind of things one finds in a war zone? Is this what happens, what you see, in war?

Any vets, feel free.

I just saw a story about this on the news tonight. While civilians obviously get killed in warfare, especially in urban warfare, this wasn't collateral damage. These people were targeted and massacred and it's ****ing disgusting.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I just saw a story about this on the news tonight. While civilians obviously get killed in warfare, especially in urban warfare, this wasn't collateral damage. These people were targeted and massacred and it's ****ing disgusting.

Not proven. As it stands now the narrative is being driven by the Zelensky regime which has been solely focused on involving America in the war.

 

[cpwill]

@cpwill @armycowboy @Bum

You folks have been in active theater. I don't hear you in these threads much. Is what they are finding in Bucha the kind of things one finds in a war zone? Is this what happens, what you see, in war?

Any vets, feel free.

Yes.

Westernized countries such as ourselves generally don't do this sort of thing - and are generally good about punishing people when / if we catch them. I've risked my life to protect captured enemy fighters, because I was responsible for them, and that's what we did.

That is not the case for the rest of the world. These scenes are terrible, horrific, and utterly within the norms of what we've come to expect from recent Russian deployments of military force, whether it's Syria, or Chechnya. AQI used to leave pieces of people scattered across public areas for their loved ones to find and have to gather. It bothered me more when they did it to kids. I stopped caring about the Iraqi police torturing or murdering AQ guys after that. If you or your group murdered a child I loved like that, I'd probably be willing to hang you from the ceiling by your wrists and strip the skin off your back, too. Closing in on two decades of this life, and, it still bothers me when it's kids. Bothers me more, now, actually. Hopefully that's sanctification slowly catching up on me.

This wouldn't even be remarkable in Syria's civil war. It'd be "Tuesday". It's likely happening across Afghanistan right now as the Taliban hunts down the people who worked for us or GIRoA, who we promised we would get out, and then, didn't. It's probably happened to people I worked with. JNIM kills some Malians, or al-Shabaab some Somalis, and, well, those countries aren't as interesting as Ukraine, and the war on terror is, like, yesteryear, and stuff. It's barely a footnote in the recent NDS.

That doesn't make it Wrong of us to seek to punish Russia for this kind of abuse, just because we didn't when they were doing it to Syrians, or people in Africa, or Chechnya. It's never wrong to do the right thing, and, nuance is possible, as is recognizing existing constraints and countervailing interests.

But scenes like this are very common in wars on this planet, and when you send your young men, they are going to see it, some of them will do it, and many more will understand it.

 

[armycowboy]

Not proven. As it stands now the narrative is being driven by the Zelensky regime which has been solely focused on involving America in the war.

Bullshit. There's drone footage and many eye witness testimonies. Moreso, most of the dead were shot, not hit by shrapnel. That's not collateral damage. That's execution.

 

[Lycanthrope]

Where did you see that? Share?

I'll second this. If there's proof provide it or be labeled an apologist for war crimes.

 

[Lycanthrope]

Bullshit. There's drone footage and many eye witness testimonies. Moreso, most of the dead were shot, not hit by shrapnel. That's not collateral damage. That's execution.

****ing disgusting that there are those here who are for whatever reason actively defending a murderous foreign tyrant and war criminal.

 

[Bum]

@cpwill @armycowboy @Bum

You folks have been in active theater. I don't hear you in these threads much. Is what they are finding in Bucha the kind of things one finds in a war zone? Is this what happens, what you see, in war?

Any vets, feel free.

Mary, I saw quite a bit similar in Iraq during the surge in 2007; but it was mostly Sunni / Shia sectarian violence that resulted in the kinds of things I am seeing in Bucha....the kind of things that takes a special kind of evil and hatred.

Usually the bodies were dumped in an area of Baghdad called the "G Spot" ( no, I have no idea why it was named that); many of the bodies had been bound and showed clear signs of torture and mutilation.
Not something I care to think back on.

 

[MaryP]

Yes.

Westernized countries such as ourselves generally don't do this sort of thing - and are generally good about punishing people when / if we catch them. I've risked my life to protect captured enemy fighters, because I was responsible for them, and that's what we did.

That is not the case for the rest of the world. These scenes are terrible, horrific, and utterly within the norms of what we've come to expect from recent Russian deployments of military force, whether it's Syria, or Chechnya. AQI used to leave pieces of people scattered across public areas for their lives ones to find and have to gather. It bothered me more when they did it to kids. It still bothers me when it's kids.

This wouldn't even be remarkable in Syria's civil war. It'd be "Tuesday". It's likely happening across Afghanistan right now as the Taliban hunts down the people who worked for us or GIRoA, who we promised we would get out, and then, didn't. JNIM kills some Malians, or al-Shabaab some Somalis, and, well, those countries aren't as interesting as Ukraine, and the war on terror is, like, yesteryear.

That doesn't make it Wrong of us to seek to punish Russia for it, just because we didn't when they were doing it to Syrians, or people in Africa, or Chechnya. It's never wrong to do the right thing, and, nuance is possible, as is recognizing existing constraints and countervailing interests.

But scenes like this are very common in wars on this planet.

Is there any way to tell, after the fact, if it was Russians or Ukranians that were killing the civilians (if they were collaborators)?

I'm relieved to hear you say no, we don't generally do this crap. Seems like every thread I go to, someone is pointing out that we've done worse.

So thanks.

 

[MaryP]

Mary, I saw quite a bit similar in Iraq during the surge in 2007; but it was mostly Sunni / Shia sectarian violence that resulted in the kinds of things I am seeing in Bucha....the kind of things that takes a special kind of evil and hatred.

Usually the bodies were dumped in an area of Baghdad called the "G Spot" ( no, I have no idea why it was named that); many of the bodies had been bound and showed clear signs of torture and mutilation.
Not something I care to think back on.

Sorry to remind you.