Believing Because of Rather Than In Spite of the Evidence...

[Daisy]

Please show me where in the bible it says Jesus will not forgive someone who truly believes in him and asks for forgiveness.

A person with a wicked heart is not likely to repent of anything...Jeremiah made that valid point in Jeremiah 13:23... ‘a leopard cannot change its spots,’ even as wicked people do not improve their personalities.​..

"Can a Cushʹite change his skin, or a leopard its spots?
If so, then you can do good,
You who are trained to do bad."

 

[ataraxia]

A person with a wicked heart is not likely to repent of anything...Jeremiah made that valid point in Jeremiah 13:23... ‘a leopard cannot change its spots,’ even as wicked people do not improve their personalities.​..

"Can a Cushʹite change his skin, or a leopard its spots?
If so, then you can do good,
You who are trained to do bad."

So if God commands you to genocide tomorrow, like he did with Saul, or order you to slit your own son's throat, like he did with Abraham, would you obey like they did (or tried)? Or would you fail that test of faith?

Who are you to judge whether such a command would make you "wicked of heart"? Yours is just to obey, not question or judge God's commands. Am I right?

 

[JustHanging]

A person with a wicked heart is not likely to repent of anything...Jeremiah made that valid point in Jeremiah 13:23... ‘a leopard cannot change its spots,’ even as wicked people do not improve their personalities.​..

Fail. That says nothing about Jesus not forgiving someone who sincerely asks for forgiveness. And why would Hitler need to "improve his personality" if he was going to ask for forgiveness?

Hitler was Catholic, and as such would be expected to ask for forgiveness before he died. Please provide the passages in the bible that tell us Jesus would not forgive Hitler.

"Can a Cushʹite change his skin, or a leopard its spots?
If so, then you can do good,
You who are trained to do bad."

More deflection. Deflection that actually supports my case. Hitler was a Catholic, a Christian, so according to you he would remain a Christian (like a leopard would not change his spots, or in this case religious beliefs).

 

[JustHanging]

So if God commands you to genocide tomorrow, like he did with Saul, or order you to slit your own son's throat, like he did with Abraham, would you obey like they did (or tried)? Or would you fail that test of faith?

Who are you to judge whether such a command would make you "wicked of heart"? Yours is just to obey, not question or judge God's commands. Am I right?

Let's not forget about Jephthah. Yahweh demanded a human sacrifice, and Jephthah provided and killed his daughter.

 

[Daisy]

Fail. That says nothing about Jesus not forgiving someone who sincerely asks for forgiveness.

Hitler was Catholic, and as such would be expected to ask for forgiveness before he died. Please provide the passages in the bible that tell us Jesus would not forgive Hitler.



More deflection. Deflection that actually supports my case. Hitler was a Catholic, a Christian, so according to you he would remain a Christian (like a leopard would not change his spots, or in this case religious beliefs).

A crucial factor that determines whether all worship is acceptable to God... many who would claim to be his followers would fall short in this regard...

"Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’" Matthew 7:22,23

 

[JustHanging]

A crucial factor that determines whether all worship is acceptable to God... many who would claim to be his followers would fall short in this regard...

"Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’" Matthew 7:22,23

Fail. I said nothing about Hitler making claims of prophesies in Jesus' name, or expelling demons in Jesus' name, or anything else in Jesus' name.

How about admitting the truth? If Hitler believes in Jesus, and as a Catholic we would expect he did, and if Hitler sincerely asked for forgiveness before death, and as a Catholic we would expect he did, according to the bible, Jesus would forgive Hitler.

I've read the bible cover to cover, it's why I'm an atheist.

Isaiah 55:7
Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, and He will have mercy on him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon.

 

[DarkWizard12]

I never said I wanted or didn't want anything. My personal desires about reality are irrelevant. It doesn't matter what I may or may not want to be real, only what is actually real. You're just desperately looking to confirm your very clear bias. That's not rational.

Yea..... Your personal desires mattered the minute you voiced them on this very board:

Because they're so damn stupid. I know. Trust me, I know.

And that's not the only post antagonizing christians on this forum, so you can't play the innocent game here. Lets face it, you don't want God to exist. You think he's cruel and what have you. I've seen your other posts on this matter. If you were a good catholic boy in school, and then after reading Darwin, you found out that your priest lied to you, then I could understand that....and you too, would understand why christians believe. But, that's not the case, is it? You don't want him to exist, and you would personally hate him if he did exist.

So yes. You choose to believe that he doesn't exist, and you never wanted him to to begin with. Don't lie to people about it. You're hardly unbiased on the matter.

 

[iguanaman]

According to the quote from the interviewer, it sounds like this guy believes the gospels are accurate eye-witness accounts. That would certainly put him at odds with the current understanding of the bible and it's authors.

He states that he "had a certain dislike of god". So he was a believer.

He claims to be a "skeptical detective", yet he proves by the quote from his book, where he states he believes the gospels are accurate eye-witness accounts, that he is most certainly not.

He believes what he believes because he wants to believe. Which is fine, but from what he said it had nothing to do with evidence, other than his own personal experiences.

What he "found" was the "pot of gold" you get when you prey on the wavering faith of many believers . They desperately need more "evidence" that the impossible it real. I feel for them, I really do.

 

[Cephus]

Yea..... Your personal desires mattered the minute you voiced them on this very board:

And that's not the only antagonizing christians on this forum, so you can't play the innocent game here. Lets face it, you don't want God to exist. You think he's cruel and what have you. I've seen your other posts on this matter. If you were a good catholic boy in school, and then after reading Darwin, you found out that your priest lied to you, then I could understand that....and you too, would understand why christians believe.

So yes. You choose to believe that he doesn't exist, and you never wanted him to to begin with. Don't lie to people about it. You're hardly unbiased on the matter.

Guess what? This isn't the religious forum. It's the skeptical forum. Maybe you ought to go elsewhere if you don't like people expressing their skepticism over the absurd things the religious believe.

 

[DarkWizard12]

Disbelieving in something for which there is absolutely no proof is hardly confirmation bias.

Being eye witness to this world for these many decades, I say itr is the believers who are most guilty

of confirmation bias and as reflected in OPs coming here to proclaim such old or new beliefs and continuing

to refer to stone age fiction.

Oh definitly confirmation bias to exist. I am just establishing that atheists are no strangers to it. Just as christians believe because they want him to exist, so to, do atheists wish it to be so that there is no god.

 

[DarkWizard12]

Guess what? This isn't the religious forum. It's the skeptical forum. Maybe you ought to go elsewhere if you don't like people expressing their skepticism over the absurd things the religious believe.

Oh? and am I not to be skeptical of your intellectual honesty? anyone can be skeptical of anything, but we do expect some intellectual honesty.

 

[Cephus]

Oh? and am I not to be skeptical of your intellectual honesty? anyone can be skeptical of anything, but we do expect some intellectual honesty.

Then you ought to develop some.

 

[DarkWizard12]

What you just described is the exact opposite of Yahweh.

He excuses evil, no matter how disgusting, so long as the the person committing the acts believes and asks forgiveness. Hitler was Catholic, so if he asked for forgiveness (which we would expect a Catholic to do) he's in heaven according to the bible.

Interesting, how exactly, do you come to this conclusion? Why do you blame god, and not the church who pushed this radical manipulation of forgiveness to begin with?

 

[Daisy]

Let's not forget about Jephthah. Yahweh demanded a human sacrifice, and Jephthah provided and killed his daughter.

Um no he did not...SMH...what a bold faced lie...

Jephthah’s daughter served at the sanctuary, doubtless like other Nethinim (“Given Ones” devoted to sanctuary service), there was much she could do. These persons served in gathering wood, drawing water, doing repair work, and undoubtedly performing many other tasks as assistants to the priests and Levites there.​—Jos 9:21, 23, 27; Ezr 7:24; 8:20; Ne 3:26.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002413?q=jephthah's+daughter&p=sen

 

[DarkWizard12]

Then you ought to develop some.

Why so defensive? You don't want god to exist, so what? You said it yourself, it doesn't take away from the argument, so I don't see what you fear, exactly.

 

[DarkWizard12]

It may be an inviting idea, but it is not descriptive of what many believe is the Christian God. Many believe that God does not care if you have been a Good human your entire life. That God cares that you acknowledge and worship 'his' existence. If you do not, nothing else matters. That is not justice, divine, or any other kind. It is coercion.

On the other hand you can spend your life raping and killing people but if in the last week of your life, you find Jesus and you acknowledge and worship and beg for forgiveness, all is good. That does not describe justice. It describes a way to escape justice.

While it's true that anything can be forgiving, you should blame the church for making it sound so easy. If you read the bible, you'd see forgiveness isn't easy at all. Case in point, why didn't the Christian God forgive Adam of eating of the tree? They told you he can forgive murderers and rapists without issue, so why not forgive adam?

Because forgiveness was never supposed to easy, and justice is still justice.

 

[DarkWizard12]

Disbelieving in something for which there is absolutely no proof is hardly confirmation bias.

Being eye witness to this world for these many decades, I say itr is the believers who are most guilty

of confirmation bias and as reflected in OPs coming here to proclaim such old or new beliefs and continuing

to refer to stone age fiction.

That's a true statement on it's face, but can one really say there is no proof of God? Or rather, proof was just dismissed without any consideration by people who had no desire of validating a God that they hated.

 

[Sweden]

I am beginning to really hate Christians.

Imo it is Chris.tianity that should be hated not Christians. Just as Islam is a loathome philosophy, opposed to all civilised values of tolerance and decency, while many Muslims are good people.

 

[JustHanging]

Interesting, how exactly, do you come to this conclusion?

Because that's what the bible says.

Why do you blame god, and not the church who pushed this radical manipulation of forgiveness to begin with?

Did you read my post? I never blamed Yahweh. I stated what the bible says. Do you disagree with the bible?

 

[JustHanging]

Um no he did not...SMH...what a bold faced lie...



https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002413?q=jephthah's+daughter&p=sen

Wow, you really don't know your bible do you. How sad. I've actually taken the time to read it, cover to cover, so let me help you:

Is Yahweh omniscient?

 

[DarkWizard12]

Because that's what the bible says.

The bible doesn't say God is evil lol

Did you read my post? I never blamed Yahweh. I stated what the bible says. Do you disagree with the bible?

You didn't state what the bible says at all. The bible, if you actually read it, states the opposite. There were many people in the story who werent forgiven for even simple transgressions, like Adam.

 

[Daisy]

Wow, you really don't know your bible do you. How sad. I've actually taken the time to read it, cover to cover, so let me help you:

Is God omniscient?

LOL...I will not waste anymore time on you after that whopper, your words are meaningless...

 

[JustHanging]

LOL...I will not waste anymore time on you after that whopper, your words are meaningless...

I know, you're afraid of learning what the bible actually says. That's why you've never read it cover to cover, and only stick to the "good" parts.


Quit forsaking Jesus, answer the question:

Is God omniscient?

 

[JustHanging]

The bible doesn't say God is evil lol

I never said it did.

You implying that I did is deceitful. Please stop this behaviour. Thank you.

You didn't state what the bible says at all. The bible, if you actually read it, states the opposite. There were many people in the story who werent forgiven for even simple transgressions, like Adam.

Sure. Here are some passages saying you will be forgiven. Please quote the passages saying you will not be forgiven if you sincerely believe and sincerely ask for forgiveness.


Isaiah 55:7
Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, and He will have mercy on him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon.

Micah 7:18-19
Who is a God like You, pardoning iniquity and passing over the transgression of the remnant of His heritage? He does not retain His anger forever, because He delights in mercy. He will again have compassion on us, and will subdue our iniquities. You will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea.


It appears you're judging and condemning Hitler. It appears you're refusing to forgive Hitler, is that correct?

Luke 6:37
Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

 

[DarkWizard12]

I never said it did.

YOU said that god is evil. I asked you how so, and you just said the bible says so. No. You're not going to get way with that. Use your head. How do you come to the conclusion that God is evil?

Sure. Here are some passages saying you will be forgiven. Please quote the passages saying you will not be forgiven if you sincerely believe and sincerely ask for forgiveness.


Isaiah 55:7
Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, and He will have mercy on him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon.

Micah 7:18-19
Who is a God like You, pardoning iniquity and passing over the transgression of the remnant of His heritage? He does not retain His anger forever, because He delights in mercy. He will again have compassion on us, and will subdue our iniquities. You will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea.


It appears you're judging and condemning Hitler. It appears you're refusing to forgive Hitler, is that correct?

Luke 6:37
Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

I didn't say God doesn't forgiven sins. He does forgive of sins, if man appropriately repents. That's why it's doubtful hitler even has the opportunity to repent....because he killed people, intentionally. And the only people that can forgive him for that are dead.

Numbers 15:27-31

27 An individual who sins unintentionally shall present a female goat a year old for a sin-offering. 28And the priest shall make atonement before the Lord for the one who commits an error, when it is unintentional, to make atonement for the person, who then shall be forgiven. 29For both the native among the Israelites and the alien residing among them—you shall have the same law for anyone who acts in error. 30But whoever acts high-handedly, whether a native or an alien, affronts the Lord, and shall be cut off from among the people. 31Because of having despised the word of the Lord and broken his commandment, such a person shall be utterly cut off and bear the guilt.



"From all your sins before God you shall be cleansed" (Leviticus 16:30)

Why does it say "from all your sins before God...?" Because he only cleanses sins made against him. Sins against other people, only the person you sinned against can forgive you for that. Why? Because you didn't necessarily sin against God, you sinned against your fellow. How can god forgive something when he wasn't the subject of the sin?