Believing Because of Rather Than In Spite of the Evidence...

[JustHanging]

YOU said that god is evil. I asked you how so, and you just said the bible says so. No. You're not going to get way with that. Use your head. How do you come to the conclusion that God is evil?

I did not say the bible says god is evil. Either quote where I did, or apologize for implying I said something I didn't. Otherwise you are being deceitful.
Thank you.

I didn't say God doesn't forgiven sins. He does forgive of sins, if man appropriately repents. That's why it's doubtful hitler even has the opportunity to repent

How could you possible know that? I believe that the consensus is that he committed suicide, so he would have had the opportunity to repent.

....because he killed people, intentionally. And the only people that can forgive him for that are dead.

He can't ask Jesus to forgive him because the people he had killed are dead? So no murderer can be forgiven by Jesus? If you steal from someone, and they die before you can apologize, Jesus can't forgive you?

That makes no sense in biblical terms.

Numbers 15:27-31
27 An individual who sins unintentionally shall present a female goat a year old for a sin-offering. 28And the priest shall make atonement before the Lord for the one who commits an error, when it is unintentional, to make atonement for the person, who then shall be forgiven. 29For both the native among the Israelites and the alien residing among them—you shall have the same law for anyone who acts in error. 30But whoever acts high-handedly, whether a native or an alien, affronts the Lord, and shall be cut off from among the people. 31Because of having despised the word of the Lord and broken his commandment, such a person shall be utterly cut off and bear the guilt.

Says nothing about Jesus not forgiving someone like Hitler. Hitler was a murderer, where does it say Jesus won't forgive murderers?

"From all your sins before God you shall be cleansed" (Leviticus 16:30)

Why does it say "from all your sins before God...?" Because he only cleanses sins made against him. Sins against other people, only the person you sinned against can forgive you for that. Why? Because you didn't necessarily sin against God, you sinned against your fellow. How can god forgive something when he wasn't the subject of the sin?

Says nothing about Jesus not forgiving someone like Hitler. Hitler was a murderer, where does it say Jesus won't forgive murderers?

 

[Cephus]

I never said it did.

You implying that I did is deceitful. Please stop this behaviour. Thank you.

He's yet another disingenuous religious troll.

 

[beancounter]

 

[Daisy]

A typical...mind you, not all are typical... atheist talking to a Christian..."It's that word Christian, every time I hear it, it tears me apart"...:2razz:

 

[Omega Man]

Hitler was Catholic, so if he asked for forgiveness (which we would expect a Catholic to do) he's in heaven according to the bible.

Uh.... no he wasn't. His parents, yes. Him, absolutely not.


OM

 

[DarkWizard12]

I did not say the bible says god is evil. Either quote where I did, or apologize for implying I said something I didn't. Otherwise you are being deceitful.

Thank you.

My reply: https://www.debatepolitics.com/beli...her-than-spite-evidence-7.html#post1069519576
Your "The Bible says so" response: https://www.debatepolitics.com/beli...her-than-spite-evidence-7.html#post1069519660

How could you possible know that? I believe that the consensus is that he committed suicide, so he would have had the opportunity to repent.

The bible says, that if a sin is committed unintentionally, with the right sacrifices, his sin will be forgiven. If it was intentional, as was most likely in hitler's case(We don't really, we'd have to be mind readers to determine such a thing, which only God can do), then well....he can be forgiven if he asks his victims to forgive him, and we all know how that ends....

He can't ask Jesus to forgive him because the people he had killed are dead? So no murderer can be forgiven by Jesus? If you steal from someone, and they die before you can apologize, Jesus can't forgive you?

He can't ask jesus for forgiveness because he never hurt jesus, to my knowledge. If you steal from someone, you would have to ask forgiveness from the man you stole from, you didn't steal from Jesus. What kind of repentance would that be?

That makes no sense in biblical terms.

Of course it makes sense. Why should an evil person get repentance easily? You think the sacrifices were a joke? No. Repentance is serious **** man. You can't JUST say you quit the sin, you have to actually go and try to make it up to the individuals you sinned against.

Says nothing about Jesus not forgiving someone like Hitler. Hitler was a murderer, where does it say Jesus won't forgive murderers?

Ummm, where does it say that Jesus will forgive murderers? It doesn't say that anywhere.

Says nothing about Jesus not forgiving someone like Hitler. Hitler was a murderer, where does it say Jesus won't forgive murderers?

Again, it doesn't say that he will either. Oh, sure, he forgave the people who put him to death, but that was because he was resurrected to do such a thing. If you kill John, well....it doesn't work like that.

 

[Omega Man]

Um no he did not...SMH...what a bold faced lie...



https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002413?q=jephthah's+daughter&p=sen

Unfortunately your interpretation is in the extreme minority; and in either case the original texts do not say that, nor anything about spending her life in seclusion.


OM

 

[Omega Man]

Is God omniscient?

If so, then God cannot be simultaneously omnipotent.


OM

 

[Daisy]

Unfortunately your interpretation is in the extreme minority; and in either case the original texts do not say that, nor anything about spending her life in seclusion.


OM

Uh no...the sacrificing of humans is something detestable to Jehovah so it is clear that Jephthah did not intend to sacrifice anyone literally...this promise meant permanent service at the tabernacle...just another example of those who read, but do not comprehend because they fail to take the time to get to know the True God, Jehovah...

“When you have entered into the land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not learn to imitate the detestable practices of those nations.There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, anyone who employs divination, anyone practicing magic, anyone who looks for omens, a sorcerer," Duet. 18:9,10

 

[iguanaman]

if you asked any atheist "do they want God to exist?" or "After seeing that God doesn't exist, do you wish he did?", most of them would say no, which makes anyone wonder if it's just a clever use of confirmation bias. They don't want God to exist, so they choose to believe that he does, and judge others who do believe.

That is like asking do you want Santa Claus to exist. It's a "loaded" question. But I would answer no to both. Because it would be irrational for either to be real and humans are rational beings when not faced with their mortality.

 

[Omega Man]

Uh no...the sacrificing of humans is something detestable to Jehovah so it is clear that Jephthah did not intend to sacrifice anyone literally...this promise meant permanent service at the tabernacle...just another example of those who read, but do not comprehend because they fail to take the time to get to know the True God, Jehovah...

“When you have entered into the land that Jehovah your God is giving you, you must not learn to imitate the detestable practices of those nations.There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, anyone who employs divination, anyone practicing magic, anyone who looks for omens, a sorcerer," Duet. 18:9,10

But the Book of Judges did not outline any of that conjecturing in the original language. He made a specific vow, and he kept that vow. That's what the scriptures attest to.


OM

 

[Daisy]

But the Book of Judges did not outline any of that conjecturing in the original language. He made a specific vow, and he kept that vow. That's what the scriptures attest to.


OM

Exactly...and the scriptures attest to Jephthah's daughter grieving over her virginity because of her giving herself willingly for a lifetime of service to Jehovah in the tabernacle, forgoing having a family or ever marrying, if you read the whole account, not just a verse or two...Judges 11...

37 She then said to her father: “Let this be done for me: Let me be alone for two months, and let me go away into the mountains, and let me weep over my virginity with my female companions.”

38 At this he said: “Go!” So he sent her away for two months, and she went to the mountains with her companions to weep over her virginity.

39 At the end of two months, she returned to her father, after which he carried out the vow he had made regarding her. She never had relations with a man. And it became a custom in Israel:

40 From year to year, the young women of Israel would go to give commendation to the daughter of Jephʹthah the Gilʹe·ad·ite four days in the year.

 

[Omega Man]

Exactly...and the scriptures attest to Jephthah's daughter grieving over her virginity because of her giving herself willingly for a lifetime of service to Jehovah in the tabernacle, forgoing having a family or ever marrying, if you read the whole account, not just a verse or two...Judges 11...

37 She then said to her father: “Let this be done for me: Let me be alone for two months, and let me go away into the mountains, and let me weep over my virginity with my female companions.”

38 At this he said: “Go!” So he sent her away for two months, and she went to the mountains with her companions to weep over her virginity.

39 At the end of two months, she returned to her father, after which he carried out the vow he had made regarding her. She never had relations with a man. And it became a custom in Israel:

40 From year to year, the young women of Israel would go to give commendation to the daughter of Jephʹthah the Gilʹe·ad·ite four days in the year.

Though you want it to say that, that is not what the scriptures say; lamenting her virginity notwithstanding (especially since she was the only heir). What the scriptures DO say however is that her father fulfilled his vow to sacrifice the first thing which came out of his house.


OM

 

[Daisy]

Though you want it to say that, that is not what the scriptures say; lamenting her virginity notwithstanding (especially since she was the only heir). What the scriptures DO say however is that her father fulfilled his vow to sacrifice the first thing which came out of his house.


OM

Baloney...

 

[Omega Man]

Baloney...

Baloney would involve reading into the scriptures, rather than simply... reading them. The scriptures say what they say, and don't say what they don't say.


OM

 

[DarkWizard12]

That is like asking do you want Santa Claus to exist. It's a "loaded" question. But I would answer no to both. Because it would be irrational for either to be real and humans are rational beings when not faced with their mortality.

Except santa clause is not associated with divine justice, or universal truth. God is, however, and being that he is entirely unimaginable by human minds, a more apt metaphor would be like the wind. Short of feeling, you can't see the wind, nor can you perceive it. You can only see its effects, such as leaves rustling, or feeling it blow against your face.

So the question is "do you believe in divine justice?" That's why I asked this "loaded" question. Because the only being that is capable of divine justice on evil, reward for the good is God. If you think that believing in God is irrational, then you are in effect saying that belief in divine justice is irrational. Well...maybe that's true and maybe not. But I can't think of a worse idea than to say "whatever you do in life, no matter how good you are to other people, you will die and suffer the same exact fate as Hitler himself". The only logical conclusion for humanity, at such an idea, is to say that all things are permitted, because none of it matters.

Again....maybe it's truth...maybe it's rational....but you can't deny, it's a formula for chaos.

 

[iguanaman]

Except santa clause is not associated with divine justice, or universal truth. God is, however, and being that he is entirely unimaginable by human minds, a more apt metaphor would be like the wind. Short of feeling, you can't see the wind, nor can you perceive it. You can only see its effects, such as leaves rustling, or feeling it blow against your face.

So the question is "do you believe in divine justice?" That's why I asked this "loaded" question. Because the only being that is capable of divine justice on evil, reward for the good is God. If you think that believing in God is irrational, then you are in effect saying that belief in divine justice is irrational. Well...maybe that's true and maybe not. But I can't think of a worse idea than to say "whatever you do in life, no matter how good you are to other people, you will die and suffer the same exact fate as Hitler himself". The only logical conclusion for humanity, at such an idea, is to say that all things are permitted, because none of it matters.

Again....maybe it's truth...maybe it's rational....but you can't deny, it's a formula for chaos.

"Divine justice" is even more irrational than Santa Claus. We are animals that evolved on Earth like every other living thing. Just because we can make up fantasies to ease our primitive fears does not make them rational or real. Sadly the business of Religion has caused more death and suffering than any other single cause but maybe that could be described as the "divine justice" for the folly of mankind.:lol:

 

[Omega Man]

...a more apt metaphor would be like the wind. Short of feeling, you can't see the wind,

There exists thermal imaging equipment that allows you to see the wind, so I don't think this old analogy applies anymore in the 21st century.


OM

 

[JustHanging]

Thank you.

You're welcome.

My reply: https://www.debatepolitics.com/beli...her-than-spite-evidence-7.html#post1069519576
Your "The Bible says so" response: https://www.debatepolitics.com/beli...her-than-spite-evidence-7.html#post1069519660

And thank you for admitting I hadn't said that the bible said god was evil.

The bible says, that if a sin is committed unintentionally, with the right sacrifices, his sin will be forgiven. If it was intentional, as was most likely in hitler's case(We don't really, we'd have to be mind readers to determine such a thing, which only God can do), then well....he can be forgiven if he asks his victims to forgive him, and we all know how that ends....

I'm sorry, but that is a nonsensical argument.

First, as you yourself note, you would need to be a mindreader to make a claim regarding Jesus forgiving Hitler.

Second, that means the vast majority, or in reality virtually all, of Christians will never be forgiven by Jesus. Because virtually everyone has lied to someone, and not asked the person they lied to to be forgiven for that lie.

Third, I quoted the bible to show Jesus would forgive Hitler. Please provide biblical quotes which show that Jesus would not forgive Hitler.

Could you also please provide biblical quotes where it says Jesus will not forgive someone unless they have asked to be forgiven by the person they sinned against? I've read the entire bible, cover to cover, and I don't remember anything like that. Thanks.

He can't ask jesus for forgiveness because he never hurt jesus, to my knowledge. If you steal from someone, you would have to ask forgiveness from the man you stole from, you didn't steal from Jesus. What kind of repentance would that be?

I agree, yet afaik, Christians don't need to ask the person they sinned against to have Jesus forgive them. If they did, then virtually every Christian on earth could not be forgiven by Jesus (see above).

This is actually why I claim atheists are generally more moral than Christians: Because if atheists want to be forgiven, unlike Christians they must go to the person they sinned against.

Of course it makes sense. Why should an evil person get repentance easily? You think the sacrifices were a joke? No. Repentance is serious **** man. You can't JUST say you quit the sin, you have to actually go and try to make it up to the individuals you sinned against.


Ummm, where does it say that Jesus will forgive murderers? It doesn't say that anywhere.


Again, it doesn't say that he will either. Oh, sure, he forgave the people who put him to death, but that was because he was resurrected to do such a thing. If you kill John, well....it doesn't work like that.

I've provided numerous bible verses to support my argument that Jesus would forgive Hitler. Could you please provide verses which show Jesus won't forgive Hitler, or murderers?

 

[JustHanging]

Uh.... no he wasn't. His parents, yes. Him, absolutely not.


OM

We can't know for sure, but he was born to Catholic parents, so certainly baptized. He attended communion. And he was confirmed in the Catholic Church. So he was sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Would he have lied about his religious beliefs for political advantage? Obviously. So I don't think we can ever know for sure.


The point of the discussion is whether Jesus would forgive someone like Hitler. According the bible as I've read it, if Hitler sincerely believed in Jesus, and sincerely asked Jesus for forgiveness, Jesus would forgive him. Do you agree or disagree with this?

 

[DarkWizard12]

You're welcome.


And thank you for admitting I hadn't said that the bible said god was evil.

:roll: ok, I'll ask you again....how did you come to that conclusion? And saying "the bible says so" isn't an answer.

I'm sorry, but that is a nonsensical argument.

Nope.

First, as you yourself note, you would need to be a mindreader to make a claim regarding Jesus forgiving Hitler.

That is correct. The sin would have to have been intentional. In the hebrew, there is a lot of leeway in the definition of intention. For example, if you commit adultery, but you didn't know it was a sin worthy of death, then it's as if it was unintentional, because you didn't have all the information/education to consider the decision, so one can repent for that. It's still not easy, mind you, you'd have to change yourself so that the sin never happens again.

Second, that means the vast majority, or in reality virtually all, of Christians will never be forgiven by Jesus. Because virtually everyone has lied to someone, and not asked the person they lied to to be forgiven for that lie.

Yea. And?

Third, I quoted the bible to show Jesus would forgive Hitler. Please provide biblical quotes which show that Jesus would not forgive Hitler.

No, you didn't. You took the quotes out of context, as I pointed out. Hitler can't just merely ask for forgiveness, because that's not real repentance in the first place. Repentence is not just something you just ask for one day, and then go home and all is well. It's something you have to spend the rest of your life doing. Hitler, of course, is dead, he can't ask for forgiveness, and if he did, the only people that could forgive him are dead. He would still have to stand for account of what he did to them. The repent

Could you also please provide biblical quotes where it says Jesus will not forgive someone unless they have asked to be forgiven by the person they sinned against? I've read the entire bible, cover to cover, and I don't remember anything like that. Thanks.

I quoted you, that there is no sacrifice for intentional sins. In the jesus story, you mentioned, will not christians say that his death was a sacrifice? If sacrifices don't cover intentional sins, as i showed you, then why should it be different?

I agree, yet afaik, Christians don't need to ask the person they sinned against to have Jesus forgive them. If they did, then virtually every Christian on earth could not be forgiven by Jesus (see above).

This is actually why I claim atheists are generally more moral than Christians: Because if atheists want to be forgiven, unlike Christians they must go to the person they sinned against.

"virtually every christian", no, just the ones you know maybe.

I've provided numerous bible verses to support my argument that Jesus would forgive Hitler. Could you please provide verses which show Jesus won't forgive Hitler, or murderers?

[/quote]
so did I, and you just ignored them. Sounds like you're just picking and choosing what the bible says.

27 An individual who sins unintentionally shall present a female goat a year old for a sin-offering. 28And the priest shall make atonement before the Lord for the one who commits an error, when it is unintentional, to make atonement for the person, who then shall be forgiven. 29For both the native among the Israelites and the alien residing among them—you shall have the same law for anyone who acts in error. 30But whoever acts high-handedly, whether a native or an alien, affronts the Lord, and shall be cut off from among the people. 31Because of having despised the word of the Lord and broken his commandment, such a person shall be utterly cut off and bear the guilt.

Jesus' death was a sacrifice. Therefore, it doesn't cover intentional sin. Sacrifices don't cover intentional sin and it says so right there.

 

[DarkWizard12]

"Divine justice" is even more irrational than Santa Claus. We are animals that evolved on Earth like every other living thing. Just because we can make up fantasies to ease our primitive fears does not make them rational or real. Sadly the business of Religion has caused more death and suffering than any other single cause but maybe that could be described as the "divine justice" for the folly of mankind.:lol:

So, when a rich man cheats you out of a deal, and gets away with it, he will never stand for account for what he's done? Both you and him will get the same reward after death? In fact, he gets more reward, because he gets the pleasure of unjustly taking your money? Is that what you're saying?

 

[RAMOSS]

Though you want it to say that, that is not what the scriptures say; lamenting her virginity notwithstanding (especially since she was the only heir). What the scriptures DO say however is that her father fulfilled his vow to sacrifice the first thing which came out of his house.


OM

There are some complexities to that which are cultural context. There is a principle in Judaism where something that involves a human life can be substituted with something of equal monetary value (or approximate) He could have substituted a dozen bulls or something. He did not.

 

[Omega Man]

We can't know for sure, but he was born to Catholic parents, so certainly baptized. He attended communion. And he was confirmed in the Catholic Church. So he was sealed with the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Would he have lied about his religious beliefs for political advantage? Obviously. So I don't think we can ever know for sure.


The point of the discussion is whether Jesus would forgive someone like Hitler. According the bible as I've read it, if Hitler sincerely believed in Jesus, and sincerely asked Jesus for forgiveness, Jesus would forgive him. Do you agree or disagree with this?

As he was not a Catholic, the point becomes moot. He however had no problem using the Catholics to further his agenda, but in no way did he subscribe to that ideology.


OM

 

[OlNate]

I see comments from atheists here often concerning God, sounds conspicuously like full-blown hatred, so that "dislike of god because he is a believer" don't float...:roll:

Sucks when they stop agreeing with ya, doesn't it?