• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Bail Fail Stories

Roadvirus

Roadvirus

Heading North
Dungeon Master
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 19, 2014
Messages
42,315
Reaction score
31,571
Location
Tennessee, USA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
A thread for those stories where some state's "bail reform" or some criminal-coddling DA/Judge with a soft spot for crumbs of society has led to disaster.

www.foxnews.com

NYC man out on bail for alleged robbery caught on video now wanted for pointing gun at woman

A Brooklyn man charged with the savage caught-on-video robbery of a 68-year-old Citi Bike rider is now being sought by police for pointing a gun at woman, Fox News has learned.
www.foxnews.com www.foxnews.com

Our first contestant is a crumb out on bail for robbery. Prosecutors asked for $100K, but a ***** judge kicked it down to $20K. Now free, our story's antagonist decided to climb the criminal ladder to the level of "assault & deadly weapon possession". And to show he's an egotistical freak, he's posting stuff on Instagram while on the run.
 
These threads never construct the actual argument. It's all left to implication based on the anecdote.

The anecdote is always "I found this one instance in which someone got bail and then went a'criming" If that's all you offer, you necessarily leave your principals dialed to 11. The direct implication is that people who were arrested for the original crime or something like it should not have had the option of posting bail.

That would not be a mere repudiation of bail reform. It'd be an expansion of what we had!

One of the most grotesque problems with bail is in relation to our leading the world in incarceration rate. There's no room in court or in jail. Cases take a while. We deliberately underfund the courts, then underfund public defense even harder. "Underfund" isn't the right word. So what are you going to do as a poor guy who's holding onto his job for dear life, is living behind-bills to behind-bills, etc?

A lot of people might say "I'd stay and fight! On principle!" They're probably thinking of their assets, and fact that they won't have to ever prove it because they'll be able to post bail. Let's be honest. Unless you actually have completely and utterly ruined yourself in a bet for freedom and you lived it until you clawed out, you have no idea what you'd do. And you wouldn't. Choice:

- Cop to misdemeanor (say, resisting arrest, maybe disorderly, or maybe a minor drug charge) and get out so you can maybe try to keep your job, while making sure you have your belongings, apartment, GFs/fiances/wives, etc.
- Demand your right to a speedy trial and wait for six months. Or a year. Or whatever. Because all sorts of actions by a defendant toll the speedy trial requirement, and the government also has a number of ways to force defendants into a position where they'll do one of those things if they wouldn't anyway.




But things are scary. It's easier to attack bail on a bet that it won't happen to you or your own. If you're of means, you're going to be able to post bail in all but the most gruesome cases filed against rich people. It's only those people who plead despite innocence so they can keep at least a little bit of their lives.
 
Roadvirus said:
A thread for those stories where some state's "bail reform" or some criminal-coddling DA/Judge with a soft spot for crumbs of society has led to disaster.

www.foxnews.com

NYC man out on bail for alleged robbery caught on video now wanted for pointing gun at woman

A Brooklyn man charged with the savage caught-on-video robbery of a 68-year-old Citi Bike rider is now being sought by police for pointing a gun at woman, Fox News has learned.
www.foxnews.com www.foxnews.com

Our first contestant is a crumb out on bail for robbery. Prosecutors asked for $100K, but a ***** judge kicked it down to $20K. Now free, our story's antagonist decided to climb the criminal ladder to the level of "assault & deadly weapon possession". And to show he's an egotistical freak, he's posting stuff on Instagram while on the run.
Click to expand...
The purpose of bail is to incentivize the defendant to return to trial. Simple robbery likely wouldn’t garner an especially large fine (unless the circumstances would result in a particularly harsh sentence).

If he did get out and then assault somebody with a deadly weapon, you could expect at the least an especially large bail sum because the consequence of a guilty verdict might make the defendant a flight risk.

The inherent purpose of bail is not to keep criminals off the streets. If you think that’s the purpose, then you logically you don’t believe in innocence until guilt.

I guess this must be the new thing on Fox News, because all at once conservatives everywhere and at the same exact time are misunderstanding the purpose of bail. When all conservatives are wrong about the same exact thing at the same exact time in the same exact way, it’s because some idiot on Fox News is spouting some nonsense.
 
Cardinal said:
The purpose of bail is to incentivize the defendant to return to trial. Simple robbery likely wouldn’t garner an especially large fine (unless the circumstances would result in a particularly harsh sentence).

If he did get out and then assault somebody with a deadly weapon, you could expect at the least an especially large bail sum because the consequence of a guilty verdict might make the defendant a flight risk.

The inherent purpose of bail is not to keep criminals off the streets. If you think that’s the purpose, then you logically you don’t believe in innocence until guilt.

I guess this must be the new thing on Fox News, because all at once conservatives everywhere and at the same exact time are misunderstanding the purpose of bail. When all conservatives are wrong about the same exact thing at the same exact time in the same exact way, it’s because some idiot on Fox News is spouting some nonsense.
Click to expand...

There are also hearings on whether to hold someone without bail, too, and specifically because of that first sentence.

At the end of the day, I think an awful lot of this is some combination of , and innate tribalism/related desire for revenge.

But I can see truly simplistic thinking to the effect "well, if we just withhold bail, people will be deterred!" Which is deeply moronic for a number of self-defeating reasons, but when did that ever help? And I can see the human inclination to revenge/malevolence/etc, ie gleeful "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime" type shit.
​
"First he grabbed his gun, then he followed me into the elevator," the shaken victim told Fox News. "He told me, ‘I should kill you right now because I’m going to jail anyway.'"​

Did God build that for Fox or something?
 
Roadvirus said:
Well, this guy isn't planning on returning to trial. At least not voluntarily.
Click to expand...
If that’s the case then a spanking is in his future. And by “spanking,” I mean a very long time in prison.
 
Bail is supposed to be reasonable for the person who is trying for it.

If the person is a flight risk or likely to offend while on bail, then t should not be granted. Otherwise it should be reasonable and obtainable for the person
 
Cardinal said:
If that’s the case then a spanking is in his future. And by “spanking,” I mean a very long time in prison.
Click to expand...
Hopefully they catch him before he kills someone.
 
Roadvirus said:
Hopefully they catch him before he kills someone.
Click to expand...
That's a very edgy position you've taken there.

I hope firefighters put out fires before somebody gets hurt. Look, you can judge me all you like, but that's my position and I'm sticking to it.
 
Yes, some people re-offend. Does that mean everyone should just be locked up for life just in case some of them do?
 
One of the latest Bail Fail stories involves a habitual offender who killed a cop while out on bond:

www.foxnews.com

Suspect identified in Milwaukee officer shooting was out on bond

A suspect charged in the Thursday shooting of a Milwaukee Police Department officer had multiple open felony cases and an active warrant against him, county documents show.
www.foxnews.com www.foxnews.com
 
Roadvirus said:
A thread for those stories where some state's "bail reform" or some criminal-coddling DA/Judge with a soft spot for crumbs of society has led to disaster.

www.foxnews.com

NYC man out on bail for alleged robbery caught on video now wanted for pointing gun at woman

A Brooklyn man charged with the savage caught-on-video robbery of a 68-year-old Citi Bike rider is now being sought by police for pointing a gun at woman, Fox News has learned.
www.foxnews.com www.foxnews.com

Our first contestant is a crumb out on bail for robbery. Prosecutors asked for $100K, but a ***** judge kicked it down to $20K. Now free, our story's antagonist decided to climb the criminal ladder to the level of "assault & deadly weapon possession". And to show he's an egotistical freak, he's posting stuff on Instagram while on the run.
Click to expand...
The bail system is a discriminatory and a very biased system. People either need to be allowed to wait for their trial in freedom (with restrictions) or kept in jail until trial. All bail judges could then be opened up to do trials. Small crimes should be done by a judge only, caught shoplifting, send them through minor cases court, no jury trial allowed and only for crimes up to 6 months in jail. The judge can rule immediately after hearing the case, done.
 
Roadvirus said:
he's posting stuff on Instagram while on the run.
Click to expand...
And people say that the romance of robbery is long gone... here is the modern Butch Cassidy.
 
Peter said:
Yes, some people re-offend. Does that mean everyone should just be locked up for life just in case some of them do?
Click to expand...
Potentially... unless they can prove they will not re-offend.
 
Cardinal said:
That's a very edgy position you've taken there.

I hope firefighters put out fires before somebody gets hurt. Look, you can judge me all you like, but that's my position and I'm sticking to it.
Click to expand...
We do put out fires before somebody gets hurt unless a person gets hurt before we put out the fire.
 
Cardinal said:
When all conservatives are wrong about the same exact thing at the same exact time in the same exact way, it’s because some idiot on Fox News is spouting some nonsense.
Click to expand...

This. You'll be in a thread and you'll start seeing the most unreasonable claims and you know it can't be a coincidence, only to discover later that yes its the current right wing talking points of the week.
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
Bail is supposed to be reasonable for the person who is trying for it.

If the person is a flight risk or likely to offend while on bail, then t should not be granted. Otherwise it should be reasonable and obtainable for the person
Click to expand...
It should be reasonable and obtainable for society in general. If a broke scumbag murders twelve children their bail should not be $50 bucks because that is all that they can afford.
 
Bodhisattva said:
It should be reasonable and obtainable for society in general. If a broke scumbag murders twelve children their bail should not be $50 bucks because that is all that they can afford.
Click to expand...
If they strongly believe he did it and is either a flight risk or likely to commit another crime bail should not be allowed at any set value.

A rich scumbag who murders twelve children should not get bail for $10 000 000 just because he is rich
 
Lord Tammerlain said:
If they strongly believe he did it and is either a flight risk or likely to commit another crime bail should not be allowed at any set value.
Click to expand...
Agreed...
Lord Tammerlain said:
A rich scumbag who murders twelve children should not get bail for $10 000 000 just because he is rich
Click to expand...
That is why I said reasonable by society... average income kind of thing.
 
Bodhisattva said:
How can they prove that they will not re-offend?

That is why the Judge is called a Judge...
Click to expand...

Yes, how can anyone prove they won't re-offend?
If I was a criminal and had just got out of prison I could do everything they ask and look totally rehabilitated but what's actually stopping me from then going on a crime spree and stealing every football teams trophies and putting them in the trophy cabinet of my favourite team to make it look like they're the best team ever?

By the way that would totally be my crime spree if I was forced to go on one.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom