ATF strikes again - Forced reset triggers

[Rucker61]

More going down the 2nd A rabbit hole....

So who 'needs' a bump stock or FRTs???

According to you, they are only useful for gangbangers or Rambutt Commandos. They're useful for anyone who wants to legally turn money into noise. Hundreds of thousands of bump stocks were sold and used for lawful purposes.

I know we who served shot everything from the Ma deuce, 203, LAW, M60 (if your old enough), 202 Flash (not very long lived) down to the lowly M16a1.

Definitely old enough, but as an officer I ran the ranges while the troops got the live fire opportunities. No 202 Flash for me, but I fired the rest and detonated a lot of demo as an engineer.

Can't say I've ever needed a select fire weapon once I left the green machine.

Me neither. That doesn't mean I don't see why normal people wouldn't have a perfectly great time shooting them. That's why there are 700,000 legally registered machine guns in the US.

Can't say I've ever heard of someone needing one either. Did I miss where a good guy used one of the items to beat back an attack of a dozen bikers or bangers???

No, but I can point you where folks fired lots of rounds shooting at targets and having a great time with machine guns.

 

[notquiteright]

According to you, they are only useful for gangbangers or Rambutt Commandos. They're useful for anyone who wants to legally turn money into noise. Hundreds of thousands of bump stocks were sold and used for lawful purposes. Definitely old enough, but as an officer I ran the ranges while the troops got the live fire opportunities. No 202 Flash for me, but I fired the rest and detonated a lot of demo as an engineer. Me neither. That doesn't mean I don't see why normal people wouldn't have a perfectly great time shooting them. That's why there are 700,000 legally registered machine guns in the US. No, but I can point you where folks fired lots of rounds shooting at targets and having a great time with machine guns.

Many want many things, I know motorheads want amazingly loud car butts. Throwing money away with a machine gun, and frankly the trigger is a work around to create a full auto weapon. I'd opine the trigger ISN'T legal. Blowing away hundreds of poorly sighted rounds isn't a need. It is rather childish desire. I do recall one of the biggest mass murderers used a bump stock. I suggest the main reason so many bump stocks aren't used by bangers and Rambutt Range Commandoes is it is too gimmicky. Bought to get onboard the anti ATF bus. Bought to be in before the ban and have it go up in value....

I have ZERO problem with making the trigger group a Class 3 part. Not saying it can't be owned, but needs the 'sticker'. I mean if you can afford hundreds of rounds that do little more than give the trigger monkey a chubby, the license is truly chump change.

Yeah, the 202 Flash was a real POS. Four LAWS in a single case. Had incendiary warheads. Our doctrine was using them in dedicated tank hunter killer groups where the Flash 'smoked' the T62(s) so the killer team(s) could close with and destroy.(I imagine you know what most of us thought of THAT plan) It did suffer from problems. We trained and fired them but never deployed them. Fun fact, the WWII flame throwers were still in our arm's room. Once a year they would drag them out and we'd watch them being tested, ahhh the good old steel brain bucket days....

 

[TurtleDude]

Many want many things, I know motorheads want amazingly loud car butts. Throwing money away with a machine gun, and frankly the trigger is a work around to create a full auto weapon. I'd opine the trigger ISN'T legal. Blowing away hundreds of poorly sighted rounds isn't a need. It is rather childish desire. I do recall one of the biggest mass murderers used a bump stock. I suggest the main reason so many bump stocks aren't used by bangers and Rambutt Range Commandoes is it is too gimmicky. Bought to get onboard the anti ATF bus. Bought to be in before the ban and have it go up in value....

I have ZERO problem with making the trigger group a Class 3 part. Not saying it can't be owned, but needs the 'sticker'. I mean if you can afford hundreds of rounds that do little more than give the trigger monkey a chubby, the license is truly chump change.

Yeah, the 202 Flash was a real POS. Four LAWS in a single case. Had incendiary warheads. Our doctrine was using them in dedicated tank hunter killer groups where the Flash 'smoked' the T62(s) so the killer team(s) could close with and destroy.(I imagine you know what most of us thought of THAT plan) It did suffer from problems. We trained and fired them but never deployed them. Fun fact, the WWII flame throwers were still in our arm's room. Once a year they would drag them out and we'd watch them being tested, ahhh the good old steel brain bucket days....

where does the federal government get the proper power to ban those triggers? and you can apply your same "logic" to semi autos.

 

[notquiteright]

where does the federal government get the proper power to ban those triggers? and you can apply your same "logic" to semi autos.

Sometimes I have to question your 'logic'. Like I said, I don't want them banned, I want them Class 3 regulated. (Semis don't have a mechanism to increase the rate of fire with little action on the shooter's part)....

Again, where has the supreme court ever backed you and your claims about federal powers??? Sidney Powell believed in MAGA 'logic' for why tRump should be President, but somehow the courts thought otherwise...

 

[TurtleDude]

Sometimes I have to question your 'logic'. Like I said, I don't want them banned, I want them Class 3 regulated. (Semis don't have a mechanism to increase the rate of fire with little action on the shooter's part)....

Again, where has the supreme court ever backed you and your claims about federal powers??? Sidney Powell believed in MAGA 'logic' for why tRump should be President, but somehow the courts thought otherwise...

I guess you don't know that once the ATF declared them automatics, under the Hughes amendment you cannot own them even with a stamp

I am trying to see if you actually are able to argue in favor of what the FDR lapdog court did with the commerce clause

 

[notquiteright]

I guess you don't know that once the ATF declared them automatics, under the Hughes amendment you cannot own them even with a stamp

I am trying to see if you actually are able to argue in favor of what the FDR lapdog court did with the commerce clause

I'm pretty sure judges didn't permit so vague a reference to 'them'. Which them are you speaking of????

 

[TurtleDude]

I'm pretty sure judges didn't permit so vague a reference to 'them'. Which them are you speaking of????

do you support what the FDR court did-pretending that the commerce clause gave congress all sorts of powers that were not even hinted at in Article One Section 8

 

[Rucker61]

Many want many things, I know motorheads want amazingly loud car butts. Throwing money away with a machine gun, and frankly the trigger is a work around to create a full auto weapon. I'd opine the trigger ISN'T legal.

Shouldn't Congress change the definition of a law.

Blowing away hundreds of poorly sighted rounds isn't a need. It is rather childish desire.

Purely opinion. For me it's a waste of money, but some people like to shoot lots of rounds.

I do recall one of the biggest mass murderers used a bump stock.

I recall our third biggest mass murder who used a firearm use a 9mm and a .22 pistol.

I suggest the main reason so many bump stocks aren't used by bangers and Rambutt Range Commandoes is it is too gimmicky. Bought to get onboard the anti ATF bus. Bought to be in before the ban and have it go up in value....

Yet you said, "My opinion is very, very few Americans have any use for the banned items except for gang bangers and Rambutt Commandos". These positions seem contradictory.

I have ZERO problem with making the trigger group a Class 3 part. Not saying it can't be owned, but needs the 'sticker'. I mean if you can afford hundreds of rounds that do little more than give the trigger monkey a chubby, the license is truly chump change.

The problem with your solution is the Hughes Amendment. Once an item like a bump stock or FRT is declared to be a machine gun, it falls afoul of the post-1986 ban. You can't register them. They're permanently illegal. My opinion is that folks wouldn't have such heartburn with the ATF decision if the Hughes Amendment wasn't turning these items into illegal machine guns with no opportunity to register them.

Yeah, the 202 Flash was a real POS. Four LAWS in a single case. Had incendiary warheads. Our doctrine was using them in dedicated tank hunter killer groups where the Flash 'smoked' the T62(s) so the killer team(s) could close with and destroy.(I imagine you know what most of us thought of THAT plan) It did suffer from problems. We trained and fired them but never deployed them. Fun fact, the WWII flame throwers were still in our arm's room. Once a year they would drag them out and we'd watch them being tested, ahhh the good old steel brain bucket days....

We didn't have either but we still had 90mm recoilless rifles as our sole AT weapon, and we did have M16s in the arms room with open flash hiders. We weren't as bad off as the engineer battalion in Ft Carson. They still had Vietnam era dump trucks with patched bullet holes.

 

[notquiteright]

do you support what the FDR court did-pretending that the commerce clause gave congress all sorts of powers that were not even hinted at in Article One Section 8

Better question- does the Supreme Court agree with you or FDR????

 

[Rucker61]

I'm pretty sure judges didn't permit so vague a reference to 'them'. Which them are you speaking of????

Bump stocks, for one.

 

[Rucker61]

Better question- does the Supreme Court agree with you or FDR????

With FDR, but they also agreed with FDR on Korematsu v. United States, Hirabayashi v. United States and Yasui v. United States. I don't think that this Court gave us a shining example of a Court concerned with the rights of US citizens.

 

[TurtleDude]

Better question- does the Supreme Court agree with you or FDR????

I want to see if you have the ability to argue in favor of the 1934 NFA and the Hughes Amendment (which you apparently were ignorant of until Rucker schooled you)

 

[notquiteright]

Shouldn't Congress change the definition of a law. Purely opinion. For me it's a waste of money, but some people like to shoot lots of rounds. I recall our third biggest mass murder who used a firearm use a 9mm and a .22 pistol. Yet you said, "My opinion is very, very few Americans have any use for the banned items except for gang bangers and Rambutt Commandos". These positions seem contradictory. The problem with your solution is the Hughes Amendment. Once an item like a bump stock or FRT is declared to be a machine gun, it falls afoul of the post-1986 ban. You can't register them. They're permanently illegal. My opinion is that folks wouldn't have such heartburn with the ATF decision if the Hughes Amendment wasn't turning these items into illegal machine guns with no opportunity to register them. We didn't have either but we still had 90mm recoilless rifles as our sole AT weapon, and we did have M16s in the arms room with open flash hiders. We weren't as bad off as the engineer battalion in Ft Carson. They still had Vietnam era dump trucks with patched bullet holes.

I'm ok with Congress changing the law. Granting a grace period for bump stock owners to register or turn in before the ban, FRTs as well. However, I do believe the vast majority are gathering dust somewhere. (you guys seem hell bent on a two track path- either no restrictions or a total ban.)

Yes but pride of place in the mass murders hall of fame, and second place, goes to the Bump Stock.

Again Congress wrote the amendment, they can alter it... "I'm Just a Bill on Capital Hill" school house rock taught us all about this long ago.

We had the LAW and sewer pipe. I hated that heavy piece of steel. As I was getting out the Dragon came to the 9th ID as a shoulder fired version. At the beginning of my time I was school trained at Polk where I turned blue. Never saw that thing until almost done and man the Dragon made me wish for the 90!!!!

Bottomline- no law is written in stone. What Congress has done Congress can undo. I'm just amazed that when the GOP had two houses of Congress and the Presidency, they somehow never got around the striking down the amendment, replacing the amendment, broadening the definitions... SOMETHING!!!!!

 

[notquiteright]

I want to see if you have the ability to argue in favor of the 1934 NFA and the Hughes Amendment (which you apparently were ignorant of until Rucker schooled you)

Hmmm a lawyer wants to argue with a layman over the law... someone is as fair n balanced as Faux Noise...

Not ignorant, just didn't understand the point he was making. YOU have told me more about Hughes (and with some froth before I ever 'spoke' to Rucker.

 

[TurtleDude]

Hmmm a lawyer wants to argue with a layman over the law... someone is as fair n balanced as Faux Noise...

Not ignorant, just didn't understand the point he was making. YOU have told me more about Hughes (and with some froth before I ever 'spoke' to Rucker.

again, do you believe the federal government was properly given any power to regulate firearms through the commerce clause or was that a fiction that the FDR court made up?

 

[Peter]

BTW what is your NEED to be posting on this board?

As far as I know, posting on this board hasn't killed anyone unlike the thousands a year killed by guns in the US.

 

[CLAX1911]

Ever heard of the valentine's day massacre?

If laws are going to work at stopping crime from happening but that's not how it works but let's pretend that it does why not just make murder illegal...

Wait...

 

[CLAX1911]

As far as I know, posting on this board hasn't killed anyone unlike the thousands a year killed by guns in the US.

They weren't killed by guns guns don't possess that ability most of them are killed by themselves but somewhere killed by other people.

You can't Stop those people by making laws against it believe it or not murder is already illegal people who commit that crime don't care.

 

[Peter]

They weren't killed by guns guns don't possess that ability most of them are killed by themselves but somewhere killed by other people.

You can't Stop those people by making laws against it believe it or not murder is already illegal people who commit that crime don't care.

Oh, try explaining that to the families of the dead.
This is why the US will never change and the carnage will continue.

 

[Rucker61]

I'm ok with Congress changing the law. Granting a grace period for bump stock owners to register or turn in before the ban, FRTs as well. However, I do believe the vast majority are gathering dust somewhere. (you guys seem hell bent on a two track path- either no restrictions or a total ban.)

That's the government's position. They ignored thr Constitution to create a new rule that didn't align wirh what Congress passed on 1934, and they didn't offer any opportunity to register and keep bump stocks.

Yes but pride of place in the mass murders hall of fame, and second place, goes to the Bump Stock.

To be frank, that goes to a 19 tonne truck, followed by a rifle that's been exempt from every "assault weapons ban" by name - the Ruger Ranch Rifle.

Again Congress wrote the amendment, they can alter it... "I'm Just a Bill on Capital Hill" school house rock taught us all about this long ago.

Agreed.

We had the LAW and sewer pipe. I hated that heavy piece of steel. As I was getting out the Dragon came to the 9th ID as a shoulder fired version. At the beginning of my time I was school trained at Polk where I turned blue. Never saw that thing until almost done and man the Dragon made me wish for the 90!!!!

I don't think our 90mm gunners ever fired anything but the subcaliber round.

Bottomline- no law is written in stone. What Congress has done Congress can undo. I'm just amazed that when the GOP had two houses of Congress and the Presidency, they somehow never got around the striking down the amendment, replacing the amendment, broadening the definitions... SOMETHING!!!!!

Likewise I'm amazed the they didn't even try to pass the Hearing Protection Act.

 

[Rucker61]

Oh, try explaining that to the families of the dead.
This is why the US will never change and the carnage will continue.

You're welcome never to set foot here.

We could pass the same laws that Australia did and the "carnage" would continue.

 

[Peter]

You're welcome never to set foot here.

We could pass the same laws that Australia did and the "carnage" would continue.

US death numbers would be unacceptable in Europe.
How they're even slightly acceptable in the US is a mystery to me.

 

[Rucker61]

US death numbers would be unacceptable in Europe.
How they're even slightly acceptable in the US is a mystery to me.

Do you understand what it would take to get to European style laws here?

How would you suggest that we go about disarming the millions of violent criminals in the US?

 

[Peter]

Do you understand what it would take to get to European style laws here?

How would you suggest that we go about disarming the millions of violent criminals in the US?

I've never claimed it would be easy but that doesn't mean you can't try.
The US sent men to the moon so you can do difficult things.

 

[Rucker61]

I've never claimed it would be easy but that doesn't mean you can't try.
The US sent men to the moon so you can do difficult things.

Handwavium, as expected. If you're going to criticize, that means that you recognize a flaw in the process. If you've gotten that far you should be able to see how to address that flaw.

How did the UK get all of the guns away from their criminals who owned them in 1995?