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As Trump dithers over Ukraine, Russia’s military edge weakens, officials say

JoeB131 said:
I'm just reminding you why you got Trump, which is why immigrants are being rounded up and the Comedian isn't going to be living large on our dime for much longer.

Maybe he should have been polite and wore a suit to the White House.
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If we wanted RT, we could go to the site, comrade.
 
JoeB131 said:
Quite the contrary, the war has ground to a stalemate, and nothing can really be accomplished by either side at this point.

A fair treaty would allow Russia to keep Crimea and Donbass, return Zaporozhia and Kherson. Allow for a UN (not NATO) force of peacekeepers to uphold the peace, and provide money to Ukraine to rebuild.
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In short, give Putin everything he wants. That's "fair", huh? Reward the criminal, punish the victim. After all, "she asked for it, being all pretty and everything."
 
JoeB131 said:
Quite the contrary, the war has ground to a stalemate, and nothing can really be accomplished by either side at this point.

A fair treaty would allow Russia to keep Crimea and Donbass, return Zaporozhia and Kherson. Allow for a UN (not NATO) force of peacekeepers to uphold the peace, and provide money to Ukraine to rebuild.
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Why is it fair for Russia to give up Zaprozhia and Kherson? Russia rightfully retook these lands from Ukrainian Nazis. If anything, Russia should advance farther into Ukrainian territory and retake all land from this fake country.
 
BogJeSrbin said:
Why is it fair for Russia to give up Zaprozhia and Kherson? Russia rightfully retook these lands from Ukrainian Nazis. If anything, Russia should advance farther into Ukrainian territory and retake all land from this fake country.
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Ukraine is a nation state just like Italy. His invasions are illegal under international law. When you say Putin should take the entire country, I'm asking if Ukrainians have any reason to join Putins' Russia? If the war is predicated on the pretense of self determination, why wouldn't Ukraine be able to determine their future themselves?

Which group of people want to be in Putin's Russia?
 
Hamish Howl said:
If we wanted RT, we could go to the site, comrade.
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Okay, I guess in your fantasy world, Biden won a second term because he was so with it.

I'm going to repost my "Why The Democrats Lost thread" from USMB here. (I might have to break it up a bit because of the 5000 word limit) and you can post non-responses to that.
 
BogJeSrbin said:
Why is it fair for Russia to give up Zaprozhia and Kherson? Russia rightfully retook these lands from Ukrainian Nazis. If anything, Russia should advance farther into Ukrainian territory and retake all land from this fake country.
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Because they are not ethnically Russian.

Putin has a valid argument about Donbas and Crimea. They are ethnically Russian areas whose interests were not being heeded after the Maidan Revolution threw out the Elected President they helped install.

His goal to take Ukrainian areas or topple Zelenskyy in favor of a puppet government is more morally dubious.
 
NWRatCon said:
In short, give Putin everything he wants. That's "fair", huh? Reward the criminal, punish the victim. After all, "she asked for it, being all pretty and everything."
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Well, no, he doesn't get everything he wants. He gets some of what he wants. Zelenskyy gets more than he has now.
 
JoeB131 said:
Because they are not ethnically Russian.

Putin has a valid argument about Donbas and Crimea. They are ethnically Russian areas whose interests were not being heeded after the Maidan Revolution threw out the Elected President they helped install.

His goal to take Ukrainian areas or topple Zelenskyy in favor of a puppet government is more morally dubious.
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www.independent.co.uk

Putin declares ‘all of Ukraine is ours’ - and hints at nuclear threat

Russian president also hints that Moscow stands ready to use a nuclear weapon if Kyiv’s forces use a so-called ‘dirty bomb’
www.independent.co.uk www.independent.co.uk

"There is an old rule: ‘Where a Russian soldier sets foot, that is ours."

Yes, morally dubious, and completely corrupt.
 
soap box said:
www.independent.co.uk

Putin declares ‘all of Ukraine is ours’ - and hints at nuclear threat

Russian president also hints that Moscow stands ready to use a nuclear weapon if Kyiv’s forces use a so-called ‘dirty bomb’
www.independent.co.uk www.independent.co.uk

"There is an old rule: ‘Where a Russian soldier sets foot, that is ours."

Yes, morally dubious, and completely corrupt.
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I'm not talking about what Putin wants.

I am saying, what I think would be a fair deal for all parties that everyone can live with.

Or we can just wait for Zelenskyy to run out of old men and little boys to send into the meat grinder, and then Putin will get everything he wants. Might even start looking at the Baltic States covetously.
 
JoeB131 said:
Okay, I guess in your fantasy world, Biden won a second term because he was so with it.

I'm going to repost my "Why The Democrats Lost thread" from USMB here. (I might have to break it up a bit because of the 5000 word limit) and you can post non-responses to that.
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Great, great.
 
JoeB131 said:
I'm not talking about what Putin wants.

I am saying, what I think would be a fair deal for all parties that everyone can live with.

Or we can just wait for Zelenskyy to run out of old men and little boys to send into the meat grinder, and then Putin will get everything he wants. Might even start looking at the Baltic States covetously.
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.
JoeB131 said:
Because they are not ethnically Russian.

Putin has a valid argument about Donbas and Crimea. They are ethnically Russian areas whose interests were not being heeded after the Maidan Revolution threw out the Elected President they helped install.

His goal to take Ukrainian areas or topple Zelenskyy in favor of a puppet government is more morally dubious.
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Putin is lying about self determination and ethnic Russians. He said this in front of an adoring crowd. He said Ukraine belongs to Russia. His objectives are not liberation. His objective is to include all of Ukraine in his quest to return to the stature of the former Soviet Union.

His argument is not valid, he's lying and we can see this in several choices he's made. One is that there are tiny percentages of prized ethnic Russians in the western Oblasts, but he is stating that he wants those oblasts anyway. Why does he want all of Ukraine when his excuse was protecting ethnic Russians?

The answer is that Putin lies.
 
JoeB131 said:
Because they are not ethnically Russian.

Putin has a valid argument about Donbas and Crimea. They are ethnically Russian areas whose interests were not being heeded after the Maidan Revolution threw out the Elected President they helped install.

His goal to take Ukrainian areas or topple Zelenskyy in favor of a puppet government is more morally dubious.
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That's factually untrue. Pure Russian propaganda.
 
JoeB131 said:
Putin has a valid argument about Donbas and Crimea. They are ethnically Russian areas whose interests were not being heeded after the Maidan Revolution threw out the Elected President they helped install.
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The Donbas did not at all support seceding from Ukraine to join Russia.
 
JoeB131 said:
Putin has a valid argument about Donbas and Crimea.
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No, Putin doesn't.

JoeB131 said:
They are ethnically Russian areas whose interests were not being heeded after the Maidan Revolution threw out the Elected President they helped install.
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Why do you insist on equating "ethnicity" with "citizenship"? The two nouns are quite distinct with different meanings.

ethnicity /ĕth-nĭs′ĭ-tē/
noun
1) Ethnic character, background, or affiliation.
2) An ethnic group.
3) The common characteristics of a group of people.

citizenship /sĭt′ĭ-zən-shĭp″/
noun
1) The status of a citizen with its attendant duties, rights, and privileges.
2) The state of being a citizen; the status of a citizen.
3) The status of being a citizen

One can be a citizen of a country and in possession of one or more ancestral ethnicities, but ancestral ethnicity on its own doesn't confer citizenship.

I am an American citizen with European ancestral ethnicity. But my ancestral ethnicity does not mean that I am a citizen of my European ethnic-origin nations.

You need to learn and appreciate the distinction and jettison the Kremlin tactic of commingling the two.
 
Rapid fire....

soap box said:
Putin is lying about self determination and ethnic Russians. He said this in front of an adoring crowd. He said Ukraine belongs to Russia. His objectives are not liberation. His objective is to include all of Ukraine in his quest to return to the stature of the former Soviet Union.

His argument is not valid, he's lying and we can see this in several choices he's made. One is that there are tiny percentages of prized ethnic Russians in the western Oblasts, but he is stating that he wants those oblasts anyway. Why does he want all of Ukraine when his excuse was protecting ethnic Russians?

The answer is that Putin lies.
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It doesn't mean that there isn't a legitimate argument to be made for redrawing the borders to reflect who actually lives where.

Jredbaron96 said:
The Donbas did not at all support seceding from Ukraine to join Russia.
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Says who? It seems they were fighting an 8 year insurgency between the Maidan Revolution and the Russian Intervention.

Rogue Valley said:
Zaporizhzhia, Kherson, Donetsk, Luhansk, and Crimea are Ukrainian lands.

But you already know this.
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Borders change. When will Germany regain East Prussia, Silesia, and Alsace-Lorraine?

Now, I agree that Russia SHOULD return Kherson and Zaporizhzhia as part of a peace settlement. They probably won't have to, though, because Zelenkskyy has squandered the opportunity.

Rogue Valley said:
One can be a citizen of a country and in possession of one or more ancestral ethnicities, but ancestral ethnicity on its own doesn't confer citizenship.

I am an American citizen with European ancestral ethnicity. But my ancestral ethnicity does not mean that I am a citizen of my European ethnic-origin nations.

You need to learn and appreciate the distinction and jettison the Kremlin tactic of commingling the two.
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I think you are confused. For instance, I am of German Ancestry. But I don't speak German (at least not well, my Chinese is probably better than my German), I have no allegiance to Germany, and my family renounced Germany when they took up US Citizenship. (It didn't help that my dad actively fought against Germany in WWII, but he retained dual citizenship until he died in 1981.)

Now, this is quite different from Russia/Ukraine, where the Ethnic Russians never made a "decision" to be part of Ukraine.

The Crimea was assigned to the Ukrainian SSR in 1954. The Donbas was assigned to it as a result of the Russian Civil War.
 
JoeB131 said:
Rapid fire....



It doesn't mean that there isn't a legitimate argument to be made for redrawing the borders to reflect who actually lives where.
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I agree. We'll need a new referendum that is monitored by international organizations to prove who is where and what they want.
 
soap box said:
I agree. We'll need a new referendum that is monitored by international organizations to prove who is where and what they want.
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Awesome, let me know when you can get Putin to agree now that he's effectively won the war.
 
JoeB131 said:
Awesome, let me know when you can get Putin to agree now that he's effectively won the war.
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Exactly my point. Putin started this war and he refuses to stop it. Do you trust Putin to tell the truth?
 
JoeB131 said:
Polls said Harris was going to win. How'd that work out again?
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The average polling said the race was a dead heat, and it ended up being pretty close. So that excuse doesn't work.

JoeB131 said:
Here's the thing. Those people of Donbas didn't rise up against the Russians, they fought for them.
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Again, this isnt really true. It was the Russians who directly supported and maintained the separatists.
 
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