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As Trump dithers over Ukraine, Russia’s military edge weakens, officials say

Exactly my point. Putin started this war and he refuses to stop it. Do you trust Putin to tell the truth?

I expect him to do what he has to to win.

The only question is, is it worth WW3 to stop him.

I say, "No". We have bigger problems.

The average polling said the race was a dead heat, and it ended up being pretty close. So that excuse doesn't work.

Yet you are trying to claim a 2019 poll the authors admitted is unreliable should guide policy now.

Again, this isnt really true. It was the Russians who directly supported and maintained the separatists.

Yes, they did. What's your point.

WHY IS ANY OF THIS MY PROBLEM?

I despise Trump, but he's right on this one. This is not our problem.
 
Yet you are trying to claim a 2019 poll the authors admitted is unreliable should guide policy now.

What?

Yes, they did. What's your point.

WHY IS ANY OF THIS MY PROBLEM?

I despise Trump, but he's right on this one. This is not our problem.

Those of us who paid attention in school learned one of the lessons of the 20th Century was not letting dictators just carve up their neighbors.
 
I expect him to do what he has to to win.

The only question is, is it worth WW3 to stop him.

I say, "No". We have bigger problems.



Yet you are trying to claim a 2019 poll the authors admitted is unreliable should guide policy now.



Yes, they did. What's your point.

WHY IS ANY OF THIS MY PROBLEM?

I despise Trump, but he's right on this one. This is not our problem.
Appeasement leads to bigger problems.
 
What?



Those of us who paid attention in school learned one of the lessons of the 20th Century was not letting dictators just carve up their neighbors.

Yes, I realize that is the cliff notes version.

The reality is, we made a bunch of concessions to win WWII. We let the USSR keep everything they seized through Ribbontrop-Molotov. We insisted on breaking up the British Empire to get Colonial Support.
 
Why is it fair for Russia to give up Zaprozhia and Kherson? Russia rightfully retook these lands from Ukrainian Nazis. If anything, Russia should advance farther into Ukrainian territory and retake all land from this fake country.
Why do you want to reward Russia, a fascist state for invading their democratic neighbor? That will only encourage the fascist running Russia to invade more countries
Why do you support fascism?
 
No, it doesn't.

Putin isn't Hitler.

Yes it does. Hitler is a perfect example. You are either in total denial of what the two men have done and said, or you simply don't know what both men have said and done. The parallels are incredible.
 
No, it doesn't.

Putin isn't Hitler.
He'd like to be. I can't believe how shallow your "analysis" is. It ignores reality in favor of wishcasting.

Putin has been using this same tactic for decades to expand his empire. He did it in Georgia and Moldova, and in Crimea, Donbas and Luhansk in 2014. He doesn't have any limit to his ambition except military force. His intent is to reconstitute the Russian empire, including all of the USSR's former "glory". Do you think he'll stop at Ukraine, or only a portion of it?
 
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Yes, I realize that is the cliff notes version.

The reality is, we made a bunch of concessions to win WWII. We let the USSR keep everything they seized through Ribbontrop-Molotov.

This is a nonsensical comparison.

We insisted on breaking up the British Empire to get Colonial Support.

We didnt insist upon that, it was the inevitable outcome of Britain fighting two world warsa in a generation.
 
Why do you want to reward Russia, a fascist state for invading their democratic neighbor? That will only encourage the fascist running Russia to invade more countries
Why do you support fascism?

Because Ukraine is equally fascist and this still isn't my problem.

He'd like to be. I can't believe how shallow your "analysis" is. It ignores reality in favor of wishcasting.

I'd like to be Tom Cruise, but that ain't happening, either.

Putin has been using this same tactic for decades to expand his empire. He did it in Georgia and Moldova, and in Crimea, Donbas and Luhansk in 2014. He doesn't have any limit to his ambition except military force. His intent is to reconstitute the Russian empire, including all of the USSR's former "glory". Do you think he'll stop at Ukraine, or only a portion of it?

Well, here's the problem: if Putin has been "at this for decades" and all he's managed to recover are a few small slivers of land in Moldova, Ukraine, and Georgia, then he certainly isn't Hitler. HItler managed to regain Austria, the Sudetenland and East Prussia in the span of a few years.


We didnt insist upon that, it was the inevitable outcome of Britain fighting two world warsa in a generation.


In fact, the British still control five colonies in the Caribbean. Barbados, which gained nominal independence in 1966, just became a republic last year, severing its political ties with the British Crown. The barbaric history of slavery in those islands has also by no means been forgotten.

Here in the United States, the history of British imperial oppression seems much more distant, of course. But as recently as the 1940s, President Franklin Roosevelt had to face off against British determination to hold onto its Empire, as he sought to form an alliance against the Nazi threat. It should be noted that, 160 years after losing the American colonies, the British Empire was alive and well in those years, spanning the globe from India to Africa and the Caribbean. And Roosevelt was dead set on ending it.

The following report on FDR’s confrontations with Winston Churchill on the subject comes from As He Saw It,[1] a book written in 1946 by FDR’s son Elliott, who participated with him at various conferences on war strategy. I believe FDR’s insights into the nature of Empire should give us pause, as we grapple with our own conduct as a republic today.

FDR to Churchill: End Colonialism

The first conflicts between FDR and Churchill which Elliott Roosevelt discusses occurred in Argentia, the Canadian harbor where the two met in August of 1941.

FDR came prepared for conflict. He told Elliott on the eve of his discussion that “Churchill told me that he was not his Majesty’s Prime Minister for the purpose of presiding over the dissolution of the British Empire. I think I speak as America’s President when I say that America won’t help England in this war simply so that she will be able to continue to ride roughshod over colonial peoples.”
 
Because Ukraine is equally fascist and this still isn't my problem.



I'd like to be Tom Cruise, but that ain't happening, either.



Well, here's the problem: if Putin has been "at this for decades" and all he's managed to recover are a few small slivers of land in Moldova, Ukraine, and Georgia, then he certainly isn't Hitler. HItler managed to regain Austria, the Sudetenland and East Prussia in the span of a few years.





In fact, the British still control five colonies in the Caribbean. Barbados, which gained nominal independence in 1966, just became a republic last year, severing its political ties with the British Crown. The barbaric history of slavery in those islands has also by no means been forgotten.

Here in the United States, the history of British imperial oppression seems much more distant, of course. But as recently as the 1940s, President Franklin Roosevelt had to face off against British determination to hold onto its Empire, as he sought to form an alliance against the Nazi threat. It should be noted that, 160 years after losing the American colonies, the British Empire was alive and well in those years, spanning the globe from India to Africa and the Caribbean. And Roosevelt was dead set on ending it.

The following report on FDR’s confrontations with Winston Churchill on the subject comes from As He Saw It,[1] a book written in 1946 by FDR’s son Elliott, who participated with him at various conferences on war strategy. I believe FDR’s insights into the nature of Empire should give us pause, as we grapple with our own conduct as a republic today.

FDR to Churchill: End Colonialism

The first conflicts between FDR and Churchill which Elliott Roosevelt discusses occurred in Argentia, the Canadian harbor where the two met in August of 1941.

FDR came prepared for conflict. He told Elliott on the eve of his discussion that “Churchill told me that he was not his Majesty’s Prime Minister for the purpose of presiding over the dissolution of the British Empire. I think I speak as America’s President when I say that America won’t help England in this war simply so that she will be able to continue to ride roughshod over colonial peoples.”

Ukraine is equally fascist?

Really?

Who is regularly attacking civilian sectors?

Who is responsible for Bucha?

Who is responsible for practically leveling Mariupol?

Who engineered a way to stay in power since 1999?

Who ends up with their dissidents falling from windows regularly?

Who invaded their neighbor not once but twice?
 
In fact, the British still control five colonies in the Caribbean. Barbados, which gained nominal independence in 1966, just became a republic last year, severing its political ties with the British Crown. The barbaric history of slavery in those islands has also by no means been forgotten.

Here in the United States, the history of British imperial oppression seems much more distant, of course. But as recently as the 1940s, President Franklin Roosevelt had to face off against British determination to hold onto its Empire, as he sought to form an alliance against the Nazi threat. It should be noted that, 160 years after losing the American colonies, the British Empire was alive and well in those years, spanning the globe from India to Africa and the Caribbean. And Roosevelt was dead set on ending it.

The following report on FDR’s confrontations with Winston Churchill on the subject comes from As He Saw It,[1] a book written in 1946 by FDR’s son Elliott, who participated with him at various conferences on war strategy. I believe FDR’s insights into the nature of Empire should give us pause, as we grapple with our own conduct as a republic today.

FDR to Churchill: End Colonialism

The first conflicts between FDR and Churchill which Elliott Roosevelt discusses occurred in Argentia, the Canadian harbor where the two met in August of 1941.

FDR came prepared for conflict. He told Elliott on the eve of his discussion that “Churchill told me that he was not his Majesty’s Prime Minister for the purpose of presiding over the dissolution of the British Empire. I think I speak as America’s President when I say that America won’t help England in this war simply so that she will be able to continue to ride roughshod over colonial peoples.”

This does not back up what you claim, nor does it back up any of your other assertions regarding Donbas.
 
Hey, guy, it's over. Zelenskyy has lost.

You are demonstrating what is known as the "Sunk Cost Fallacy."

It's when you've invested a lot of time and money into a project that is going nowhere, and because you've invested all this time, money (and in this case, lives) into something, you keep doing it instead of admitting failure.

This is why Vietnam dragged on for a decade, even though everyone admitted that the minute we pulled out, Saigon would fall, which it did.
It's why we dithered in Afghanistan for a decade after we (finally) killed Bin Laden in another country.

The West has dumped 430 billion dollars into Ukraine, more than twice the country's GDP.

View attachment 67573844

What are we even trying to accomplish at this point? Driving Russia out of Ukraine and Donbas? That isn't going to happen, they are firmly entrenched.
Yes let's just let Putin wage endless wars and take all of eastern Europe. It is the sensible thing to do. The fact is that the US withholding military aid will only succeed in prolonging the inevitable defeat of Russia by Ukraine costing 100's of 1000's more deaths on both sides. Russia's military is corrupt and incompetent but as long as they can keep sending 50,000 more Russians to die every month the war will drag on. Cutting Russia off from their oil money and sending Ukraine bunch of old weapons that are gathering dust in our inventory could end this in months instead of years.
 
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You're absolutely right. There wasn't.

But that's where we are at now. He has Eastern Ukraine, and he's not giving it back.

So now what? Continue the war perpetually like they did in Korea?
He is not satisfied with what his piss poor army has been able to take. He wants all of Ukraine and then will start on the rest of eastern europe. The only answer is to defeat him now and send his army back to their borders. That is not a pipe dream either. Russia is failing economically and his army is losing over 1000 men a day. Ukraine can and will win this war and the only question is how long it might take. Trump is prolonging this war by backpedaling on Russian sanctions and military aid. If you truly want peace you should support stiffer sanctions on Russia and more aid for Ukraine.
 
Ukraine is equally fascist?

Really?

Who is regularly attacking civilian sectors?

Who is responsible for Bucha?

Who is responsible for practically leveling Mariupol?

Who engineered a way to stay in power since 1999?

Who ends up with their dissidents falling from windows regularly?

Who invaded their neighbor not once but twice?
Who overthrew a Democratically elected Government in 2014?



Who has refused to hold a free election since 2019?


Who has banned political parties.


Who has consolidated free media into state-controlled media?



Who has armed the Neo-Nazi Azov Brigade?


Who violated the Minsk Accords?

Both sides are equally bad.

This is not our fight.

If Zelenskyy refuses to negotiate, then we need to cut off his credit card.
 
This does not back up what you claim, nor does it back up any of your other assertions regarding Donbas.

Nuh-uh isn't an argument.

Yes let's just let Putin wage endless wars and take all of eastern Europe. It is the sensible thing to do. The fact is that the US withholding military aid will only succeed in prolonging the inevitable defeat of Russia by Ukraine costing 100's of 1000's more deaths on both sides. Russia's military is corrupt and incompetent but as long as they can keep sending 50,000 more Russians to die every month the war will drag on. Cutting Russia off from their oil money and sending Ukraine bunch of old weapons that are gathering dust in our inventory could end this in months instead of years.

Russia is selling that oil to China, which is happy to buy it.

We've already sent Ukraine a buttload of NEW weapons, and they haven't been able to budge the front in years.

The problem Ukraine has isn't weapons, it's a lack of men to use them.


He is not satisfied with what his piss poor army has been able to take. He wants all of Ukraine and then will start on the rest of eastern europe. The only answer is to defeat him now and send his army back to their borders. That is not a pipe dream either. Russia is failing economically and his army is losing over 1000 men a day. Ukraine can and will win this war and the only question is how long it might take. Trump is prolonging this war by backpedaling on Russian sanctions and military aid. If you truly want peace you should support stiffer sanctions on Russia and more aid for Ukraine.

Except we aren't going to defeat him, and if he feels reasonably threatened, he's got nukes.

Ukraine has had over three years to win this thing, and they aren't any closer now to when they started.
 
Because Ukraine is equally fascist and this still isn't my problem.
That can't be true. The 2019 election in Ukraine was monitored by OSCE. A fascist won't allow anyone to see his election. So which one is the fascist?

That would be Putin, he hasn't lost an election yet!
 
Why do you want to reward Russia, a fascist state for invading their democratic neighbor? That will only encourage the fascist running Russia to invade more countries
Why do you support fascism?
Ukraine is rightful Russian land. I feel the same way about Israel and Gaza. Israel is just trying to retake Gaza (rightful Israeli land). Hopefully the snail Vučić retakes Kosovo (rightful Serbian land).
 
Who overthrew a Democratically elected Government in 2014?



Who has refused to hold a free election since 2019?


Who has banned political parties.


Who has consolidated free media into state-controlled media?



Who has armed the Neo-Nazi Azov Brigade?


Who violated the Minsk Accords?

Both sides are equally bad.

This is not our fight.

If Zelenskyy refuses to negotiate, then we need to cut off his credit card.


It wasn't Zelensky.

And the government was not overthrown. In fact it was the government that removed Yanukovich from office.

As to the election. He was elected in 2019. Why would there be an election at that point. And now? You might have missed the fact a war is going on.

And arming the Neo-Nazi Azov Brigade? You do know they were armed long before Zelensky came to office. Right?
 
Ukraine is rightful Russian land. I feel the same way about Israel and Gaza. Israel is just trying to retake Gaza (rightful Israeli land). Hopefully the snail Vučić retakes Kosovo (rightful Serbian land).


Time to first lie.

First sentence.
 
That can't be true. The 2019 election in Ukraine was monitored by OSCE. A fascist won't allow anyone to see his election. So which one is the fascist?

That would be Putin, he hasn't lost an election yet!

Except -

1) They overthrew the guy who won the 2013 election.
2) They haven't held an election since 2019.

And arming the Neo-Nazi Azov Brigade? You do know they were armed long before Zelensky came to office. Right?

So Zelensky has Nazis fighting for him. But he's totally not fascist.

It wasn't Zelensky.

And the government was not overthrown. In fact it was the government that removed Yanukovich from office.

Point was, Yanukovich was toppled by a coup. That's not what you do in a Democracy.


As to the election. He was elected in 2019. Why would there be an election at that point. And now? You might have missed the fact a war is going on.

The term of office is only 5 years. he should have held an election in 2024 and didn't.
 
Except -

1) They overthrew the guy who won the 2013 election.
2) They haven't held an election since 2019.
'Overthrew' is a misleading word in this sentence.

Putin won't hold an election if he can't control the vote. Zelensky was elected in a fair election that was monitored by OCSE.

You said both were fascist, but a fascist won't submit an election to inspection.


So Zelensky has Nazis fighting for him. But he's totally not fascist.



Point was, Yanukovich was toppled by a coup. That's not what you do in a Democracy.

February 22, 2014
Everybody knew Yanukovich rejected the proposal of ties to the EU and instead he wanted closer ties with Russia. The people rioted in the streets at the capitol city and the Ukranian Parliament voted him out. Ukrainians did not want to be aligned with Russia. Who the * wants to be a Puppet for Putin?

You do realize Yanukovich disappeared after signing the mandates and showed up weeks later in Russia after escaping Ukraine? He gave up on his opposition and snuck out the back door.

Conditions Yanu signed on his last day in office:
  • The Ukranian president cedes some powers to Parliament by returning to the 2004 constitution.
  • He agreed to elections before the end of that year.
  • He signed for immediate formation of a coalition government.

The term of office is only 5 years. he should have held an election in 2024 and didn't.

Their constitution prohibits an election during a declared war. More importantly, no international organization would recognize an election under conditions of potential attacks.


Putin is a stunning example of everything that can go wrong with humankind. Hitler too.
 
Except -

1) They overthrew the guy who won the 2013 election.

The government removed Yanukovich from office.

2) They haven't held an election since 2019.

Why is 2019 an issue? That is when Zelensky ws elected.

So Zelensky has Nazis fighting for him.

Neo-Nazis. A fraction of a percentage of the Ukraine military.

But he's totally not fascist.

Right.

Point was, Yanukovich was toppled by a coup. That's not what you do in a Democracy.

And this has what to do with Zelensky?

The term of office is only 5 years. he should have held an election in 2024 and didn't.

Take it up with the Ukrainian constitution.
 
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