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Arguments for the existence of God[W:740]

You can't expect me to post the same thing dozens of times to similar queries from different posters. If someone asks something I've addressed before, I make no bones at pointing them to my previous response.

As I said, I've addressed 1). The argument purports doesn't say everything must be proceeded by something.

3) is irrelevant to the argument at hand.

So god damn lazy. You've ignored most people trying to talk to you saying things like "that's off topic and irrelevant" when it wasn't. Look, if you want a one way conversation, start a blog. You didn't even come close to answering my three questions anywhere in this thread and you're avoiding doing it now because it points out the contradictions in your logic and would make your little glass house explode.

Lazy and frankly sad.
 
The first premise doesn't assume there must be a single explanation, as noted. It argues simply that there is a bottom level explanation for everything in the universe, not that each thing has the same explanation. It is compatible with there being multiple irreducible explanations, like laws of nature not reducible to a theory of everything.

Why does that explanation have to be the Christian god?
 
So god damn lazy. You've ignored most people trying to talk to you saying things like "that's off topic and irrelevant" when it wasn't. Look, if you want a one way conversation, start a blog. You didn't even come close to answering my three questions anywhere in this thread and you're avoiding doing it now because it points out the contradictions in your logic and would make your little glass house explode.

Lazy and frankly sad.
Nonsense. You try to answer many very similar objections, alongside various off-topic derailments.

I want a proper, meaningful discussion of the argument. This is supposed to be the philosophy subforum. If you want to discuss any old point about God or religion you can think of, that is up to you. I won't respond to it.
 
This is an excellent illustration of what I meant - a dismissive, arrogant attitude combined with no attempt to address the arguments at hand - this thread begins with an argument for God!

Still, none of that is relevant to the argument, so I will comment no more on it.

This pretty much sums up your contributions to this thread. A dismissive, arrogant attitude combined with no attempt to address the arguments at hand.
 
Nonsense. You try to answer many very similar objections, alongside various off-topic derailments.

I want a proper, meaningful discussion of the argument. This is supposed to be the philosophy subforum. If you want to discuss any old point about God or religion you can think of, that is up to you. I won't respond to it.

Then answer ay least one of my questions and prove you're not a lazy hack dismissive of everything you can't answer. Why do you think the universe MUST have meaning and it owes you an explanation for your existence? Your entire little "proof" is based on this premise yet you can't prove it in any way.
 
so god was nothing and nothing was unstable and so it changed into something?


not sure how you get more simple then nothing
 
Following on from recent discussions, I will try to discuss positive arguments for God's existence, and hopefully some decent discussion can out of it (and there won't be an inundation of fallacy). Again, mostly because I'm lazy, I will start by posting the basic argument and give support for premises in response to queries, rather than fillin the background from the beginning. I will start with Plotinus'/The Neoplatonic version of the cosmological argument, based on the appeal to divine simplicity, mostly because Edward Feser has a good, accessible formulation of it (adapted by Lloyd Gerson's):

Edward Feser: Plotinus on divine simplicity, Part I

1. There must be a first principle of all if there is to be an explanation of why the world exists.

2. If the first principle of all were composed of parts, then those parts would be ontologically prior to it.

3. But in that case it would not be the first principle of all.

4. So the first principle is not composed of parts, but is absolutely simple.

5. If there were a distinction between what the first principle is and the fact that it is, then there could be more than one first principle.

6. But in order for there to be more than one, there would have to be some attribute that distinguished them.

7. But since a first principle is absolutely simple, there can be no such attribute.

8. So there cannot be more than one first principle.

9. So there is no distinction in the first principle between what it is and the fact that it is.

10. So the first principle is not only absolutely simple but utterly unique: the One.

Although I said I wouldn't start by giving background or support to the premises, it is worth quoting Feser on the first premise, because that is bound to be misunderstood, especially by people who specialise in misunderstandings:

What is meant by a “first principle” in step (1) is, essentially, a bottom level explanation of the world, something that explains everything else without needing an explanation itself. Accordingly, this premise is at least implicitly accepted by the atheist no less than by the theist, at least insofar as the atheist regards scientific explanations as terminating in a most fundamental level of physical laws that determine all the rest – whether this takes the form of a “Theory of everything” or instead a conjunction of several physical theories left unreduced to some such single theory. The dispute between Plotinus and the atheist, then, would not be over the existence of a “first principle,” but rather over its character. And Plotinus wants to show in the rest of the argument that the first principle of all would have to be simple in (something like) the sense of “simplicity” enshrined in the doctrine of divine simplicity.

By the way, Feser's Cosmological Argument Roundup is a great online resource on cosmological arguments:


Edward Feser: Cosmological argument roundup

If anyone has any other arguments they like, please post them
.


If God exists then why do so so many evil things happen on Planet Earth?If God can't stop them then he's not omnipotent so he's not God.

If he could stop them but he doesn't then he's evil.

Who wants to worship an evil God? Not me.
 
If God exists then why do so so many evil things happen on Planet Earth?If God can't stop them then he's not omnipotent so he's not God.

If he could stop them but he doesn't then he's evil.

Who wants to worship an evil God? Not me.

He's about to inform you you're off topic and should leave so he can continue his monologue. He's here to preach about something he made up in his head, not debate it.
 
Following on from recent discussions, I will try to discuss positive arguments for God's existence, and hopefully some decent discussion can out of it (and there won't be an inundation of fallacy). Again, mostly because I'm lazy, I will start by posting the basic argument and give support for premises in response to queries, rather than fillin the background from the beginning. I will start with Plotinus'/The Neoplatonic version of the cosmological argument, based on the appeal to divine simplicity, mostly because Edward Feser has a good, accessible formulation of it (adapted by Lloyd Gerson's):

Edward Feser: Plotinus on divine simplicity, Part I

1. There must be a first principle of all if there is to be an explanation of why the world exists.

2. If the first principle of all were composed of parts, then those parts would be ontologically prior to it.

3. But in that case it would not be the first principle of all.

4. So the first principle is not composed of parts, but is absolutely simple.

5. If there were a distinction between what the first principle is and the fact that it is, then there could be more than one first principle.

6. But in order for there to be more than one, there would have to be some attribute that distinguished them.

7. But since a first principle is absolutely simple, there can be no such attribute.

8. So there cannot be more than one first principle.

9. So there is no distinction in the first principle between what it is and the fact that it is.

10. So the first principle is not only absolutely simple but utterly unique: the One.

Although I said I wouldn't start by giving background or support to the premises, it is worth quoting Feser on the first premise, because that is bound to be misunderstood, especially by people who specialise in misunderstandings:

What is meant by a “first principle” in step (1) is, essentially, a bottom level explanation of the world, something that explains everything else without needing an explanation itself. Accordingly, this premise is at least implicitly accepted by the atheist no less than by the theist, at least insofar as the atheist regards scientific explanations as terminating in a most fundamental level of physical laws that determine all the rest – whether this takes the form of a “Theory of everything” or instead a conjunction of several physical theories left unreduced to some such single theory. The dispute between Plotinus and the atheist, then, would not be over the existence of a “first principle,” but rather over its character. And Plotinus wants to show in the rest of the argument that the first principle of all would have to be simple in (something like) the sense of “simplicity” enshrined in the doctrine of divine simplicity.

By the way, Feser's Cosmological Argument Roundup is a great online resource on cosmological arguments:


Edward Feser: Cosmological argument roundup

If anyone has any other arguments they like, please post them.



That fails to answer how the first principal (when it's addressing the existence of the earth) came to be. I know you stated a first principal needs no further explanation, but that undermines the entire concept of trying to understand existence. It's a "because I said so" argument.

People are asking where God came from if they are to accept that God exists. The first principal argument works well in easily defined concepts, such as mathematics where it can be proved, but not in a suppositional or religious context. Therefore the theory fails to show evidence of the existence of God.
 
Then answer ay least one of my questions and prove you're not a lazy hack dismissive of everything you can't answer. Why do you think the universe MUST have meaning and it owes you an explanation for your existence? Your entire little "proof" is based on this premise yet you can't prove it in any way.

I care nothing for your judgment of me. Spud made literally a very similar objection, and I answered it. I also quoted an explanation of it in the OP. Does each thing in the universe have a scientific explanation? This is all the proof requires.
 
I care nothing for your judgment of me. Spud made literally a very similar objection, and I answered it. I also quoted an explanation of it in the OP. Does each thing in the universe have a scientific explanation? This is all the proof requires.

I looked back, you didn't answer it. You're trying to shut down debate because you've declared the philosophy you just pulled out of your ass to be fact and are completely incapable and unwilling to defend it. You could've answered it any of the 5 times I asked, instead you just ignore it and pretend you already did.

The universe does not owe you meaning or an explanation, so all of the other points you've built on this fallacious premise are completely meaningless. If you hate responding so much start a blog and don't go to a debate site soliciting responses you'll just outright dismiss without addressing.
 
If God exists then why do so so many evil things happen on Planet Earth?If God can't stop them then he's not omnipotent so he's not God.

If he could stop them but he doesn't then he's evil.

Who wants to worship an evil God? Not me.

Well, the logical problem of evil would rule out God's existence tout court. But you'd have to argue for a straight contradiction between evil's very existence and God. Besides, the proofs of God still purport to show God exists, and are worth examining. The evidential problem of evil, which you seem to be bringing up, is only a probable argument, at its strongest, so they are doubly still worth considering in that case.
 
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The first premise doesn't assume there must be a single explanation, as noted. It argues simply that there is a bottom level explanation for everything in the universe, not that each thing has the same explanation. It is compatible with there being multiple irreducible explanations, like laws of nature not reducible to a theory of everything.

If there can be more than one irreducible explanation, is there any reason why there can't be infinite irreducible explanations, that is, everything is justified by itself, rather than by a common concept?
 
I looked back, you didn't answer it. You're trying to shut down debate because you've declared the philosophy you just pulled out of your ass to be fact and are completely incapable and unwilling to defend it. You could've answered it any of the 5 times I asked, instead you just ignore it and pretend you already did.

The universe does not owe you meaning or an explanation, so all of the other points you've built on this fallacious premise are completely meaningless. If you hate responding so much start a b ok of and don't go to a debate site soliciting responses you'll just outright dismiss without addressing.

I literally answered you in the post you are responding to:

Does each thing in the universe have a scientific explanation? This is all the proof requires.

Spell out why this doesn't answer your question. Maybe I'm just not understanding you.
 
If there can be more than one irreducible explanation, is there any reason why there can't be infinite irreducible explanations, that is, everything is justified by itself, rather than by a common concept?

Yes, this is expressly what the argument purports to show.
 
I literally answered you in the post you are responding to:

Does each thing in the universe have a scientific explanation? This is all the proof requires.

Spell out why this doesn't answer your question. Maybe I'm just not understanding you.

From your point #1:

1. There must be a first principle of all if there is to be an explanation of why the world exists.

So your argument is"Science can't explain everything so therefore I'm free to make up my own meaning because there must be one!"

I don't see how that even remotely proves point #1, which your entire argument is based on.
 
That fails to answer how the first principal (when it's addressing the existence of the earth) came to be. I know you stated a first principal needs no further explanation, but that undermines the entire concept of trying to understand existence. It's a "because I said so" argument.

People are asking where God came from if they are to accept that God exists. The first principal argument works well in easily defined concepts, such as mathematics where it can be proved, but not in a suppositional or religious context. Therefore the theory fails to show evidence of the existence of God.

But the argument purports to show God didn't come to be - he is the uncaused cause.

I don't know quite what you mean by understand existence. The argument purports to show God is his own sufficient reason, to use the technical term, so their is an explanation of him, though it isn't in causal terms (as it can't be).
 
He's about to inform you you're off topic and should leave so he can continue his monologue.
He's here to preach about something he made up in his head, not debate it.
fig


I had that figured out from the OP and I'm not going to play his game.
 
From your point #1:

1. There must be a first principle of all if there is to be an explanation of why the world exists.

So your argument is"Science can't explain everything so therefore I'm free to make up my own meaning because there must be one!"

I don't see how that even remotely proves point #1, which your entire argument is based on.

Premise one says nothing about whether science fails to explain everything. The argument aims to show that (in a sense). All premise one does is assume there is some basic explanation, not necessarily the same one, for each thing in the universe. Most atheists accept this when they consider the laws of nature explain all in the universe. The rest of the argument shows why that is wrong. It is possible to question the premise, but it would risk science and perhaps all knowledge by allowing there could be all sorts of thing in the universe with no explanation.
 
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Premise one says nothing about whether science fails to explain everything. The argument aims to show that (in a sense). All premise one does is assume there is some basic explanation, not necessarily the same one, for each thing in the universe. Most atheists accept this when they consider the laws of nature explain all in the universe. The rest of the argument shows why that is wrong.

Exactly as I said then. You're claiming everything must have a reason and meaning, yet can't prove this is the case. You then build your entire "proof" on this fallacious premise. When challenged you say "Science can't prove everything therefore #1 is true" which makes no sense.

In a scientific or mathematical proof you can't just start wherever you want, you have to start with an irrefutable truth you can prove, otherwise your argument is built on nonsense.
 
Well, the logical problem of evil would rule out God's existence tout court. But you'd have to argue for a straight contradiction between evil's very existence and God. Besides, the proofs of God still purport to show God exists, and are worth examining. The evidential problem of evil is only a probable argument, at its strongest, so they are doubly still worth considering in that case.


You have nothing on your side so you and I have nothing more to discuss.

Come back when you have some real proof.

If God would eliminate nukes and create peace on Earth I'd accept that as proof of his existence.

If that doesn't happen I'll continue to not believe in a God that doesn't exist.

:lol:
 
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Exactly as I said then. You're claiming everything must have a reason and meaning, yet can't prove this is the case. You then build your entire "proof" on this fallacious premise. When challenged you say "Science can't prove everything therefore #1 is true" which makes no sense.

I did no such thing. That is just a complete strawman. Most atheists accept everything in the universe has an explanation. It is a premise most atheists share with theists. As I said, you can dispute this, but it is problematic. It would require a rejection of the principle of sufficient reason and the acceptance of brute facts. For example, science assumes all things in the universe have an explanation. The scientist, when faced with a phenomena, doesn't think it could have no explanation. But arguably it would be worse than this. If anything could exist without explanation this would include our beliefs, which undermines our confidence in our reasoning.
 
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