Argue the other side.

[DebateChallenge]

People who think muslims in this country are all out to kill them live in fear.

Its not muslims we should fear its terrorists. The religion or ethnicity of the terrorists doesn't matter, what matters is that the are out to kill us and they did exactly that seventeen years ago today.

 

[vegas giants]

Its not muslims we should fear its terrorists. The religion or ethnicity of the terrorists doesn't matter, what matters is that the are out to kill us and they did exactly that seventeen years ago today.

How many terrorists hijacked a plane in america last year? Yet we have invasive laws to help prevent that very rare event. You are MUCH more likely to be shot.

 

[OlNate]

{A} Many veterans who have served in combat also promote reasonable gun control.

{B} They do not live in fear.

{C} People who think muslims in this country are all out to kill them live in fear.

A) True

B) Not exclusively true by default, not by a long shot

C) True, but nothing to do with the thread.

Fear and misunderstanding is what leads to a lot of poor solutions being put forth by GCA's. I think Dog made a good and honest effort to do what the thread asked.

Honest question: If GCA's weren't afraid of guns, why would they be so fixated with them, rather than trying to fix the root causes behind WHY people use them to commit violence?

 

[vegas giants]

A) True

B) Not exclusively true by default, not by a long shot

C) True, but nothing to do with the thread.

Fear and misunderstanding is what leads to a lot of poor solutions being put forth by GCA's. I think Dog made a good and honest effort to do what the thread asked.

Honest question: If GCA's weren't afraid of guns, why would they be so fixated with them, rather than trying to fix the root causes behind WHY people use them to commit violence?

If you could show me a place that has reduced gun violence by fixing the root causes behind it WITHOUT gun control I would love to see it. Why do pro gunners want to do something that has never worked anywhere?

 

[apdst]

A) True

B) Not exclusively true by default, not by a long shot

C) True, but nothing to do with the thread.

Fear and misunderstanding is what leads to a lot of poor solutions being put forth by GCA's. I think Dog made a good and honest effort to do what the thread asked.

Honest question: If GCA's weren't afraid of guns, why would they be so fixated with them, rather than trying to fix the root causes behind WHY people use them to commit violence?

They aren't afraid of guns. They want gun ownership banned so the government can control the populace easier.

 

[OlNate]

They aren't afraid of guns. They want gun ownership banned so the government can control the populace easier.

Mmm...I'm not sure I see that as the main reason...at least, I haven't arrived at that in my own thinking about it. It's a tough one to prove or disprove, though, so I'm not saying you're wrong... Just...I'm not sure. The fear thing seems a lot more likely...Occam's razor, and all that...

 

[OlNate]

If you could show me a place that has reduced gun violence by fixing the root causes behind it WITHOUT gun control I would love to see it. Why do pro gunners want to do something that has never worked anywhere?

Do you have an example of somewhere it has been tried and failed?

 

[vegas giants]

Do you have an example of somewhere it has been tried and failed?

No. I don't. Someone should try it in a big city and lets see the results. But they won't because it is massively expensive. Until then we should go with what we know works

 

[OlNate]

No. I don't. Someone should try it in a big city and lets see the results. But they won't because it is massively expensive. Until then we should go with what we know works

It only works if you can get people to buy into it...and in order to get people to buy into it, you need to be able to demonstrate that it will work, and that it won't punish innocent people. Given the pushback on increased gun control, in a country where a person's right to bear arms "shall not be infringed upon", perhaps the more intelligent approach is to take the progressive tack and try something new.

A) Enforce the existing rules.

B) Work on eliminating the root cause.

Honest question: What do you say to GCA's when you increase gun control and mass killings / violent deaths happen anyway?

 

[dogboy49]

Many veterans who have served in combat also promote reasonable gun control. They do not live in fear.

Yes, some veterans promote gun control. Yes, some of those "gun control" veterans do not live in fear. No argument.

People who think muslims in this country are all out to kill them live in fear.

Makes sense, although I have no way of really knowing.

 

[vegas giants]

It only works if you can get people to buy into it...and in order to get people to buy into it, you need to be able to demonstrate that it will work, and that it won't punish innocent people. Given the pushback on increased gun control, in a country where a person's right to bear arms "shall not be infringed upon", perhaps the more intelligent approach is to take the progressive tack and try something new.

A) Enforce the existing rules.

B) Work on eliminating the root cause.

Honest question: What do you say to GCA's when you increase gun control and mass killings / violent deaths happen anyway?

Then do it. I don't know what the holdup is.....except that it is massively expensive and any politician that promotes it will have to raise taxes and will never be reelected.


Good Luck

 

[OlNate]

Then do it. I don't know what the holdup is.....except that it is massively expensive and any politician that promotes it will have to raise taxes and will never be reelected.


Good Luck

Would you personally support higher taxes to address the root cause of the problem?

 

[vegas giants]

Would you personally support higher taxes to address the root cause of the problem?

Would you for your country?

 

[dogboy49]

Very good point. I have friends that I've known for over 20 years who would be truly frightened if they knew I was legally carrying concealed around them.

I have been carrying since I was about 30. Most of my "gun-averse" friends don't know it to this day. Don't know how they would react, and I don't intend to find out.

 

[OlNate]

Would you for your country?

Absolutely. The great part about this solution is that fixing the root causes of gun violence would not only help minimize deaths by gun violence, but solve a whole bunch of other issues as well.

Your turn.

 

[vegas giants]

Would you personally support higher taxes to address the root cause of the problem?

Let me answer more directly. The devil is in the details. Lay out the details of your plan with the costs involved.

 

[OlNate]

Let me answer more directly. The devil is in the details. Lay out the details of your plan with the costs involved.

lol...you want me to draft up the policy, and do the cost analysis for you before you'll answer? lol... No.

The questions is simple: Would you pay higher taxes if it reduced gun related deaths?

 

[vegas giants]

lol...you want me to draft up the policy, and do the cost analysis for you before you'll answer? lol... No.

The questions is simple: Would you pay higher taxes if it reduced gun related deaths?

50% increase? 90% increase. Would you pay 90% more in taxes to reduce gun deaths?

 

[OlNate]

50% increase? 90% increase. Would you pay 90% more in taxes to reduce gun deaths?

I'm asking you. I went first last time, despite asking the question. Have some balls, this isn't for money...lol... I'm asking if you would pay higher taxes if it reduced gun related deaths.

Honestly, I'm surprised this is so difficult for you, given how passionate you are about the subject when you're talking about taking someone else's rights. I'm just trying to understand how much you're willing to put into the game....

 

[vegas giants]

I'm asking you. I went first last time, despite asking the question. Have some balls, this isn't for money...lol... I'm asking if you would pay higher taxes if it reduced gun related deaths.

Honestly, I'm surprised this is so difficult for you, given how passionate you are about the subject when you're talking about taking someone else's rights. I'm just trying to understand how much you're willing to put into the game....

Yes. I will give every penny I have to reduce gun violence. Just like you. Ok?

 

[Chillfolks]

OK non answer-ducked making a call.

What you talking about Willis, I answered your question honestly and thoroughly.

Just because the answer wasn't what you hoped for doesn't mean it was non answered or ducked.

 

[OlNate]

Yes. I will give every penny I have to reduce gun violence. Just like you. Ok?

Ok! (Every penny you have? Not sure if I should take that seriously, but since it's not what I'm suggesting, I won't linger long on it)

So... Excessive gun control will cost a lot of money as well...not as much, to be sure, but a lot.

Since the money is coming out of your pocket now, where would you like to see it spent? Gun control only impacts those who were never a problem to begin with: people willing to obey the law. Given that you have 300 000 000 guns already in circulation in your country, criminals will have more than enough access to guns, which they would posses and use illegally - if they are willing to now, they will be willing to immediately after any new laws are passed. Also, you're going to create an even great rift between pro and anti gun folks. It might cost less, but I wonder what you're actually buying.

Fixing root cause, however, will impact the folks more that were the ones you had to worry about: the poor, the mentally ill, the disillusioned. It will get them the help they need, and give them options other than violence and crime to reach a level of success they feel they'd like to. They'll be more like you and me - thinking about the weekend with their children or planning what they would like to do with the back garden or where what movie they'd like to see with their significant other, vs. robbing a store or killing a competing gang member, or taking out a school. Also, the pro gun crowd won't be up in arms (ahem, excuse the pun) over having their constitutional rights taken away, so there's likely to be buy in from their side as well. Plus, you'll have all the other side benefits of having a happy, healthy citizenry.

So...without having the specifics, the cost analysis, the policy manual, but only the description as I've laid it out above, if you could only pick one, which do you like better?

 

[vegas giants]

Ok! (Every penny you have? Not sure if I should take that seriously, but since it's not what I'm suggesting, I won't linger long on it)

So... Excessive gun control will cost a lot of money as well...not as much, to be sure, but a lot.

Since the money is coming out of your pocket now, where would you like to see it spent? Gun control only impacts those who were never a problem to begin with: people willing to obey the law. Given that you have 300 000 000 guns already in circulation in your country, criminals will have more than enough access to guns, which they would posses and use illegally - if they are willing to now, they will be willing to immediately after any new laws are passed. Also, you're going to create an even great rift between pro and anti gun folks. It might cost less, but I wonder what you're actually buying.

Fixing root cause, however, will impact the folks more that were the ones you had to worry about: the poor, the mentally ill, the disillusioned. It will get them the help they need, and give them options other than violence and crime to reach a level of success they feel they'd like to. They'll be more like you and me - thinking about the weekend with their children or planning what they would like to do with the back garden or where what movie they'd like to see with their significant other, vs. robbing a store or killing a competing gang member, or taking out a school. Also, the pro gun crowd won't be up in arms (ahem, excuse the pun) over having their constitutional rights taken away, so there's likely to be buy in from their side as well. Plus, you'll have all the other side benefits of having a happy, healthy citizenry.

So...without having the specifics, the cost analysis, the policy manual, but only the description as I've laid it out above, if you could only pick one, which do you like better?

Gun control is proven to work. Lets go with the proven winner

 

[Into the Night]

Gun control is proven to work. Lets go with the proven winner

Still ignoring the data and chanting your opinion, I see. Gun control doesn't work, dude. You don't get to act like a dictator over the United States.

 

[OlNate]

Gun control is proven to work. Lets go with the proven winner

So...you would forgo the option that has a real chance of working, despite not having been tried, in favor of an approach that has been tried in America and failed - either in the fact that it hasn't eliminated gun deaths in places where it has been implemented, or in the fact that it couldn't be implemented due to constitutional issues in other places...specifically because it does not address the root cause, which is the suggested alternative solution you could have chosen.

Is that what you're saying?