Are we better off today than in the Middle Ages

[US Conservative]

I guess if you don't mind your neighbors, friends and children dying off periodically to get better wages, it was a great time.

That wasn't my point. Whether you realize this can be debated.

 

[Paleocon]

If you actually believe life was better in the Middle Ages, you need to go back and study more history.

I've studied plenty of history.

It wasn't.

Yes it was.

Your ability to ignore the proofs people are offering as to why not, is nothing short of astonishing.

No one has offered any proofs.

There was almost constant warfare. At any moment, your village could be looted, plundered, pillaged, raped and burned by soldiers of some other Baron, Duke, Prince or King, just because you're there. For kicks, they might impale some people or break them on the wheel (look up medieval tortures.... appalling).

There's almost constant warfare today, and the risk of being brutalized by immoral members of an enemy army is still around. Of course in the Middle Ages you didn't have the possibility of your whole country being destroyed in a matter of hours in a nuclear war.

Questioning anything about the Church of Rome could get you burned at the stake. In fact, anything odd about you could get you burned at the stake, or stoned, or done to death in terrible ways under suspicion of witchcraft. Even being too good of a healer or herbalist, or just being weird.

No ... openly and obstinately spreading condemned heresies could get you in trouble, that's about all the truth in this last paragraph.

Examination of medieval grave sites reveal a LOT of people DID die in their 20s and 30s, and not that many lived into their 40s or 50s.... you call that a full life?

I have no idea what graves you're talking about. But I don't define fullness of life materialistically.

Most people lived and died without ever travelling 30 miles from the place of their birth. Most never read a book. Most lived in fear of annual plagues... those who could afford to moved out of the city during the summer to avoid the annual die-off.

The plague wasn't annual.

People enjoyed fun games like Burn the Heretic, and went to the square to watch the latest person SUSPECTED of treason to the crown be slowly and nastily tortured to death.

No...

 

[year2late]

No, the fact that it's not true makes it untrue. Where on earth are you getting your statistics? MARS?

I think you are about 3 planets away.

 

[Threegoofs]

That wasn't my point. Whether you realize this can be debated.

I'm not positive what your point was.

If you want an excellent book about the Black Death (and the 14th century in general), check out A Distant Mirror by Barbara Tuchman. Great book, and it clearly outlines the disruptive effects of losing 1/3 of the population in a short period.

 

[Goshin]

I've studied plenty of history.




Yes it was.



No one has offered any proofs.



There's almost constant warfare today, and the risk of being brutalized by immoral members of an enemy army is still around. Of course in the Middle Ages you didn't have the possibility of your whole country being destroyed in a matter of hours in a nuclear war.



No ... openly and obstinately spreading condemned heresies could get you in trouble, that's about all the truth in this last paragraph.



I have no idea what graves you're talking about. But I don't define fullness of life materialistically.



The plague wasn't annual.



No...

Denying facts isn't debate, son. I took graduate level courses in history in college, and the Middle Ages is one of my favorite periods of interest. I've read innumerable books on the subject of life in the middle ages, and everything I said is correct.

Keep rafting down Da Nile river if you like.

 

[Paleocon]

Well, I got news for ya. Women totally had abortions in the Middle Ages. In fact, there has never been any point in human history where they haven't. So, uh... yeah.

And furthermore, you don't think "individual stability" is affected in any way by constant war, disease, violence, poverty, starvation, and ruler change? Really? Please tell me you're just saying that to avoid facing the problems in your frankly unbelievable OP, and not because you really believe it.

There have always been some who resort to crime. Some people commit infanticide today, we're still better off than some (so far) hypothetical country where infanticide is legal.

To some degree. But if Prince second born overthrows King firstborn, that doesn't really affect the average serf too much. In any case, all those things you mentioned still happen today.

 

[year2late]

Questioning anything about the Church of Rome could get you burned at the stake.

You realize this is in the "plus" column for Paleocon.

 

[Paleocon]

Denying facts isn't debate, son. I took graduate level courses in history in college, and the Middle Ages is one of my favorite periods of interest. I've read innumerable books on the subject of life in the middle ages, and everything I said is correct.

Keep rafting down Da Nile river if you like.

Asserting falsehoods and refusing to address an opponent's points isn't debate.

 

[Paleocon]

You realize this is in the "plus" column for Paleocon.

I do not condone torture.

 

[US Conservative]

I'm not positive what your point was.

If you want an excellent book about the Black Death (and the 14th century in general), check out A Distant Mirror by Barbara Tuchman. Great book, and it clearly outlines the disruptive effects of losing 1/3 of the population in a short period.

3G, Im hoping you are capable of the distinction between saying that there was some upside with saying that there were largely negative effects. You can do this if you really try.

 

[Kobie]

Yes. Being born into virtually any part of medieval society gave one a practically certain state in life. Of course one could try to make it otherwise, but one had the stable option available.

Yeah, cleaning them.

 

[Goshin]

Asserting falsehoods and refusing to address an opponent's points isn't debate.

Quite right; which is in fact what you've been doing.

 

[Unrepresented]

A) Speak for yourself regarding your ability to do math.

B) On average an adult could expect a long life.

A) algebra was only being invented during the middle ages, and formal education was going to be limited to only a handful of rich or important society members. Public education wasn't widely available the way it is today.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebra

B) The life expectancy may be pulled down somewhat by infant mortality rate, but the idea of having my children die regularly isn't a particularly strong selling point for the middle ages.

 

[year2late]

I do not condone torture.

You do realize that getting confessions and punishment in the Middle Ages frequently involved torture. And often my the church!

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

There have always been some who resort to crime. Some people commit infanticide today, we're still better off than some (so far) hypothetical country where infanticide is legal.

To some degree. But if Prince second born overthrows King firstborn, that doesn't really affect the average serf too much. In any case, all those things you mentioned still happen today.

Uh, actually, infanticide was a lot more common back in the Middle Ages. Killing infants through exposure was quite popular.

I wonder if you feel ruler's policies affect nothing when it comes to Obama.

And also if you're going to answer for the rest of it (violence, disease, starvation, poverty, etc).

Given how little you seem to know about history, this should be fun. :lol:

 

[Threegoofs]

I can think of a million reasons why life is better now, but if you want one, I've gotta go with a two word answer.

Dental anesthesia.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Are we really better off now, with economic crises every few decades, mass murder of children, widespread acceptance of perversion, and mass godlessness, than back in medieval Europe, where there was stability and order?

Really? Here, let me tackle these one at a time, ok?

Are we really better off now, with economic crises every few decades

The economy of the era was a complete shambles. Most "countries" simply reminted older coins, and coins of 100 or more years old were commonly found in circulation. In fact, hard currency was almost unheard of, most communities surviving off of the barter system. And this is a system that makes it almost impossible to save anything. You can't just take a pig or a bushel of oats and stick them in the bank.

And to show how bad the economy was, the smallest coins that were commonly in circulation were silver pennies, equivalent today to around $50. With the fall of the Roman Empire, all lesser coins (copper and bronze) were no longer minted. Imagine a world where the smallest bill available was a $50 bill. You can't just buy a pack of gum, you need to buy a case of it, because there was no way to make change.

And with no way to "save", all of your wealth is therefore tied up into production itself. Had a bad crop year? Well, you had better rely upon the charity of neighbors, because you have no money in the bank, nowhere to get a loan. This is why migrations were common, peasants being forced to move when their crops failed or a plague decimated their region.

mass murder of children

Do you think the Pied Piper of Hamlin was just a children's story? The full version is often cleaned up for modern audiences, but in the original stories the ending was very different. Either the children were led into the mountain and never heard from again, they were taken to the top of the mountain and the Piper had his wicked way with them, or they were simply marched into the Weser River, to drown like the rats earlier in the story.

And most believe this story is based upon a real event. The "Children's Crusade". Where possibly as many as 30,000 children were convinced to go to the Holy Land on a crusade, only to be sold into slavery in Tunisia.

widespread acceptance of perversion

Well, during that era, the "age of consent" for girls was 12, for boys it was 14. Make of that whatever you wish. Adults in their 30's marrying a 12 or 13 year old girl was common practice during the Middle Ages.

As for the rest of your rant, seems you have some kind of fantasy belief of what the era was really like. If you were living in a more feudal region where serfdom was common practice, you were essentially a slave. You were tied to the land, and could not simply move without the permission of your lord. Disease was rampant, and many times saw plagues that were even worse then Ebola in West Africa today.

Stability and order. With constant invasions from various barbarian tribes, most of the countries we know of today at the time were actually composed of many smaller kingdoms. England as we know of it was actually much smaller kingdoms. Wales, Essex, Sussex, East Anglia, Northumbland, Mercia, Danelaw, Guthrium, and others at various times. During most of the Middle Ages, England was little more then multiple bandit kings who were constantly fighting one another. Until they were finally invaded by the Normans largely consolidated them through invasion and conquest.

And as a male peasant, you could be called up at any time as part of a military levy. Think of it as a forced draft, where your main purpose was to act as cannon fodder to absorb losses before the lord's men at arms entered the battle. So if the Baron who owned the land you farmed decided to go to war with another Baron over a grove of timber both wanted, you are forced into the army and marched off to fight. And of course the constant invasions by Eastern European tribes.

The Vandals were still moving through the area, as were the Goths, Visigoths, Franks, and many others.

And don't forget the Norse, who frequently invaded any land with a waterway, be it ocean or navigable river.

Oh, and of course the Moors. Who invaded what is now Spain, and controlled it as an Islamic Sultanate for over 770 years.

And of course all the migration because of these wars. Moors invade Spain, so many of the region migrate to France, which pushes more into Germany, etc, etc, etc.

 

[Helix]

It was much better for the reasons I mentioned.

To be clear, I'm not advocating a return to feudalism, as the reasons for its coming into existence were peculiar to post-Roman Europe, and it was ultimately destined to fall away as towns grew. But nonetheless, that type of economics, stable and oriented to the common good, but not overly centralized, is the best economic system. The type which arose in the towns is the type which needs to be emulated.

the economic system of the middle ages was feudalism, so you are absolutely advocating that. read a little bit about it :

Feudalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

you would have been lucky to even have had enough to eat back then. right now, you can drive down the street to any restaurant or grocery store (in your car) and buy as much food as you need. you can do the same thing fifteen times tomorrow if you want. and if all that food makes you sick, they can put a stent in your artery or give you a bypass.

you're much better off than a serf was under feudalism. you're seriously arguing otherwise?

 

[Paleocon]

Yeah, cleaning them.

What?

Quite right; which is in fact what you've been doing.

No...

You do realize that getting confessions and punishment in the Middle Ages frequently involved torture. And often my the church!

You do realize that our own government has tortured people as well.

Uh, actually, infanticide was a lot more common back in the Middle Ages. Killing infants through exposure was quite popular.

I wonder if you feel ruler's policies affect nothing when it comes to Obama.

And also if you're going to answer for the rest of it (violence, disease, starvation, poverty, etc).

Given how little you seem to know about history, this should be fun. :lol:

Infanticide was and is illegal.

I didn't say policies had no effect. I said the identity of the ruler didn't.

Those things are all still around today.

Really? Here, let me tackle these one at a time, ok?



The economy of the era was a complete shambles. Most "countries" simply reminted older coins, and coins of 100 or more years old were commonly found in circulation. In fact, hard currency was almost unheard of, most communities surviving off of the barter system. And this is a system that makes it almost impossible to save anything. You can't just take a pig or a bushel of oats and stick them in the bank.

And to show how bad the economy was, the smallest coins that were commonly in circulation were silver pennies, equivalent today to around $50. With the fall of the Roman Empire, all lesser coins (copper and bronze) were no longer minted. Imagine a world where the smallest bill available was a $50 bill. You can't just buy a pack of gum, you need to buy a case of it, because there was no way to make change.

And with no way to "save", all of your wealth is therefore tied up into production itself. Had a bad crop year? Well, you had better rely upon the charity of neighbors, because you have no money in the bank, nowhere to get a loan. This is why migrations were common, peasants being forced to move when their crops failed or a plague decimated their region.

They didn't need to save because they didn't live in a capitalist economy. Aid in times of distress was one of the duties of a lord to his serfs.

Do you think the Pied Piper of Hamlin was just a children's story? The full version is often cleaned up for modern audiences, but in the original stories the ending was very different. Either the children were led into the mountain and never heard from again, they were taken to the top of the mountain and the Piper had his wicked way with them, or they were simply marched into the Weser River, to drown like the rats earlier in the story.

And most believe this story is based upon a real event. The "Children's Crusade". Where possibly as many as 30,000 children were convinced to go to the Holy Land on a crusade, only to be sold into slavery in Tunisia.

What?

Well, during that era, the "age of consent" for girls was 12, for boys it was 14. Make of that whatever you wish. Adults in their 30's marrying a 12 or 13 year old girl was common practice during the Middle Ages.

Most people who were going to get married had already done do by their 30's.

As for the rest of your rant, seems you have some kind of fantasy belief of what the era was really like. If you were living in a more feudal region where serfdom was common practice, you were essentially a slave. You were tied to the land, and could not simply move without the permission of your lord. Disease was rampant, and many times saw plagues that were even worse then Ebola in West Africa today.

Serfs were not slaves. They could not be sold. They had freedom in matters of marriage or entering the clergy. And The Lord had duties to them. It was a cooperative system.

 

[Paleocon]

the economic system of the middle ages was feudalism, so you are absolutely advocating that. read a little bit about it :

Feudalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

you would have been lucky to even have had enough to eat back then. right now, you can drive down the street to any restaurant or grocery store (in your car) and buy as much food as you need. you can do the same thing fifteen times tomorrow if you want. and if all that food makes you sick, they can put a stent in your artery or give you a bypass.

you're much better off than a serf was under feudalism. you're seriously arguing otherwise?

I'd prefer the system of the towns.

But yes, feudalism was better than the modern system. Serfs were set for life.

 

[Kobie]

What?

It was a play on words. Think about it.

 

[Paleocon]

It was a play on words. Think about it.

Oh, now I get it.

 

[Helix]

I'd prefer the system of the towns.

But yes, feudalism was better than the modern system. Serfs were set for life.

as were sharecroppers, too, right?

ok, **** this.

 

[Paleocon]

as were sharecroppers, too, right?

ok, **** this.

Serfdom was more encompassing.

 

[year2late]

Serfdom was more encompassing.

Ok, on your behalf, I will say, that after the black death killed off so much of the population, the ones that survived were so few that they were able to negotiate a less ****ty existence.