Are Peace Talks Dead or Not?

[washunut]

I look at how the deal with Iran impacts the current peace talks and come up with two opposite scenarios.

1. Talks are dead as Israel can have zero trust in the Obama/ Kerry/ Hagel troika. Palestinians know they can show zero flexibility and still have U.S. support.

2. There will be a deal as the above mentioned troika has proven their disdain for Israel and it's leaders. In America, the Democratic base is not swayed what happens to Israel. Thus the administration is free to shove any deal down Israel's throat with the threat of cutting off advanced weapons.

I am sure folks can come up with other potential scenarios.

 

[Fisher]

Obama got 70% of the Jewish vote. The Pro-Israel Jewish part of the democratic party has always backed the wrong horse. Regardless, once Israeli spies were caught in the US, I couldn't care less what Israeli people think the US's duty is to them.

 

[washunut]

Obama got 70% of the Jewish vote. The Pro-Israel Jewish part of the democratic party has always backed the wrong horse. Regardless, once Israeli spies were caught in the US, I couldn't care less what Israeli people think the US's duty is to them.

So even after all we learned about our spying on everyone you are still peeved enough about something like that.

Besides there was nothing in the above that talked about the US's duty to Israel. Perhaps your hatred blurred that part.

 

[Fisher]

So even after all we learned about our spying on everyone you are still peeved enough about something like that.

Besides there was nothing in the above that talked about the US's duty to Israel. Perhaps your hatred blurred that part.

You said :

There will be a deal as the above mentioned troika has proven their disdain for Israel and it's leaders. In America, the Democratic base is not swayed what happens to Israel. Thus the administration is free to shove any deal down Israel's throat with the threat of cutting off advanced weapons.

The implication of that is that you feel the US owes a different duty to Israel, specifically that the US should only agree to a deal that is Pro-Israel and the the US should continue to supply Israel weapons systems. We owe no duty to Israel. I don't have "hatred' for Israel. I think they are complicit in their own turmoil. If Israel wanted peace with Syria, they could have returned the occupied territories. They chose to keep the territories and forgo the peace. It is not our job to deliver to Israel peace they have intentionally not sought on their own.

 

[washunut]

You said :



The implication of that is that you feel the US owes a different duty to Israel, specifically that the US should only agree to a deal that is Pro-Israel and the the US should continue to supply Israel weapons systems. We owe no duty to Israel. I don't have "hatred' for Israel. I think they are complicit in their own turmoil. If Israel wanted peace with Syria, they could have returned the occupied territories. They chose to keep the territories and forgo the peace. It is not our job to deliver to Israel peace they have intentionally not sought on their own.

Your implication is just that in you mind. So to giving up the Golan Heights, just think what that would mean with all that is going on in Syria.

I am sure you are correct that the nation of Israel and it's people who have not had a single day of peace in it's existence wants continued war. They rejoice when people blow up their kids on schoolbuses and discos.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Keeping Israel viable and safe is in the best interest in the US.

The current US Administration has thrown Israel under one of those terrorist bombed buses.

Israel has done a lot to hurt their relationship with the US as well. The latest actions are, IMHO, because they don't feel they can rely on the current US Administration to watch their back, so they go it alone without coordinating with the US.

The US has been weakened in the IR realm. Empty threats regarding Syria, and many other examples.

What concerns me is that Israel may take action themselves against Iran and if so, where does that put the US with the current Admistrations distance from Israel?

The peace plans in Israel with the Palestinians is off the table right now. The US has no influence with Israel because of the way we have treated them, and turned our back on them. It started when Obama, in front of Netanyahu. said that Israel should go back to the 1967 boarders, and Netanyahu blew a gasket in front of the press (as he should of).

In summary, yes, it's dead. Can it be revived and brought back to life? Not as long as the current Administration stays on their current IR track.

 

[Fisher]

Your implication is just that in you mind. So to giving up the Golan Heights, just think what that would mean with all that is going on in Syria.

I am sure you are correct that the nation of Israel and it's people who have not had a single day of peace in it's existence wants continued war. They rejoice when people blow up their kids on schoolbuses and discos.

The people of Israel refuse to do anything to break the militant faction stranglehold in the Knesset that refuses to compromise even when the majority of the population are willing to compromise for peace. It is not ours to deliver unto them that which they can do for themselves. The Golan Heights hasn't been strategically necessary since before Israel controlled it when warfare stopped depending upon binoculars. Israel intentionally built settlements on it so they would have an excuse to keep it and build more settlements on it. They chose to have suburbs as opposed to peace. Blown up discos is the price they pay, and they have had plenty of days of peace.

 

[Goshin]

Peace talks were never and will never be viable as long as one side denies the others right to exist.

 

[Beaudreaux]

Peace talks were never and will never be viable as long as one side denies the others right to exist.

Outstanding. You have just, in one sentence, ground down to the root cause of all the problems. Well done.

 

[washunut]

Keeping Israel viable and safe is in the best interest in the US.

The current US Administration has thrown Israel under one of those terrorist bombed buses.

Israel has done a lot to hurt their relationship with the US as well. The latest actions are, IMHO, because they don't feel they can rely on the current US Administration to watch their back, so they go it alone without coordinating with the US.

The US has been weakened in the IR realm. Empty threats regarding Syria, and many other examples.

What concerns me is that Israel may take action themselves against Iran and if so, where does that put the US with the current Admistrations distance from Israel?

The peace plans in Israel with the Palestinians is off the table right now. The US has no influence with Israel because of the way we have treated them, and turned our back on them. It started when Obama, in front of Netanyahu. said that Israel should go back to the 1967 boarders, and Netanyahu blew a gasket in front of the press (as he should of).

In summary, yes, it's dead. Can it be revived and brought back to life? Not as long as the current Administration stays on their current IR track.

But will the administration try to force a deal by threatening to cut off arms. If so, does Israel have a choice as the US seems to have all the cards.

 

[washunut]

Peace talks were never and will never be viable as long as one side denies the others right to exist.

Does this matter to the administration. Do they care if Israel exists as long as whatever happens to it happens after 2016.

Let's remember Obama still needs to earn the noble prize the world gave him.

 

[Goshin]

Does this matter to the administration. Do they care if Israel exists as long as whatever happens to it happens after 2016.

Let's remember Obama still needs to earn the noble prize the world gave him.

Bud, I'm not sure what goes on in Obama's head. There seems to be damn little reason and logic up in there to be sure, unless it is some brand of sideways logic I am unfamiliar with. Piss off our allies and cuddle up to our enemies never made much sense.

 

[Beaudreaux]

But will the administration try to force a deal by threatening to cut off arms. If so, does Israel have a choice as the US seems to have all the cards.

Israel buys a hell of lot of their arms from France. And France isn't a fan of the deal either. I don't think it'll make that big a difference, since Israel's been making friends with others to replace the US reliance.

 

[washunut]

Israel buys a hell of lot of their arms from France. And France isn't a fan of the deal either. I don't think it'll make that big a difference, since Israel's been making friends with others to replace the US reliance.

I did not know that Israel bought military equipment from France.

 

[Beaudreaux]

I did not know that Israel bought military equipment from France.

Arms dealers sniff opportunities as French president visits Israel | The Electronic Intifada

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France–Israel_relations

 

[Summerwind]

I look at how the deal with Iran impacts the current peace talks and come up with two opposite scenarios.

1. Talks are dead as Israel can have zero trust in the Obama/ Kerry/ Hagel troika. Palestinians know they can show zero flexibility and still have U.S. support.

2. There will be a deal as the above mentioned troika has proven their disdain for Israel and it's leaders. In America, the Democratic base is not swayed what happens to Israel. Thus the administration is free to shove any deal down Israel's throat with the threat of cutting off advanced weapons.

I am sure folks can come up with other potential scenarios.

In my entire lifetime, Israel has NEVER taken peace talks seriously except during Clinton years and we see how all that ended, with a rational jew being assassinated.

It's time we quit worrying about Israel's tempertantrums and look at what's best for the entire world. Hopefully Israel's nukes will become an issue soon and we can start sanctions against them.... Oh, that's right, so far they get a pass on everything we expect out of ME countries.

 

[washunut]

In my entire lifetime, Israel has NEVER taken peace talks seriously except during Clinton years and we see how all that ended, with a rational jew being assassinated.

It's time we quit worrying about Israel's tempertantrums and look at what's best for the entire world. Hopefully Israel's nukes will become an issue soon and we can start sanctions against them.... Oh, that's right, so far they get a pass on everything we expect out of ME countries.

So as a high school student you have never in your life seen Israel taken peace talks seriously. You probably never saw Hamas the democratically elected leaders of Gaza call for the destruction of Israel. You have never seen your armies in Gaza and Lebanon fire missles into Israeli cities but bemoan the fact that not enough Israelis died in those attacks.

 

[ecofarm]

Hopefully Israel's nukes will become an issue soon and we can start sanctions against them.... Oh, that's right, so far they get a pass on everything we expect out of ME countries.

1. Israel did not ratify the NPT. Iran did, so that is their problem and it's nothing to do with Israel.
2. Israel is a liberal western democracy. Iran is not.

Your entire "argument" rests on a pathetic false equivalence.

 

[Summerwind]

1. Israel did not ratify the NPT. Iran did, so that is their problem and it's nothing to do with Israel. 2. Israel is a liberal western democracy. Iran is not. Your entire "argument" rests on a pathetic false equivalence.

If you think Israel is a democracy or liberal, you're nuts and not worth the effort to reply further.

 

[ecofarm]

If you think Israel is a democracy or liberal, you're nuts and not worth the effort to reply further.

:cuckoo:

 

[ecofarm]

If you think Israel is a democracy or liberal, you're nuts and not worth the effort to reply further.

That ones geopolitical worldview could rest on such a "perspective" is frightening.



Would anyone else like to claim that Israel is not a democracy? In fact, the claim is that if someone thinks Israel is a democracy, then they are insane. Anyone with that?

How does that crap even qualify as debate. It's the intellectual equivalent of running in front of a bus. The funny thing is, there might be a couple followers. Lemmings, splat.

And to top it off, you hold the claim that ratifying a treaty is irrelevant. You want to hold Israel to treaties they have not ratified while not holding Iran to a treaty it has ratified.


No matter how many times this is explained, some people will just continue making the same ridiculous claim over and over.

 

[ilan22]

i sure hope that those talks still exist,and i hope that the palestinians will get off the tree and agree to have a small country in the areas of gaza and the west bank without forcing nither jews nor muslims and christians leaving their homes...
it simple-if jews live there its jewish land
if muslims live there its muslim land
druze and christians arabs i am 100% sure that they will choose to keep living in israel like they do today.

is it that hard?

 

[PeteEU]

I look at how the deal with Iran impacts the current peace talks and come up with two opposite scenarios.

1. Talks are dead as Israel can have zero trust in the Obama/ Kerry/ Hagel troika. Palestinians know they can show zero flexibility and still have U.S. support.

Er okay. The Palestinians (not the Hamas scum) have been very flexible .. hell even Arafat was, and time and time again any deals was destroyed by the radicals on both sides. If anyone has to be flexible these days, then it is that idiot that runs Israel at the moment. Talk to the moderates among the Palestinians.. make a deal with the West Bank, make peace, and let Hamas cry in their blockaded hell hole. It seems that Israel does not understand the idea of divide and conquer...

2. There will be a deal as the above mentioned troika has proven their disdain for Israel and it's leaders. In America, the Democratic base is not swayed what happens to Israel. Thus the administration is free to shove any deal down Israel's throat with the threat of cutting off advanced weapons.

Of course there is disdain for Israeli leaders.. they lie through their teeth time and time again. They do not want to negotiate peace, that is very clear. That is why they have been in part side lined in this case.

But the main reason that Israel was "not heard" is because they are a poison pill. Had Israel been involved then the Iranians would have had massive firepower to demand Israel come clean on its nuclear programs and Israel would be defacto forced to do so to get any deal. By not including Israel, it basically lets Israel of the hook and Iran cant use the Israeli nuclear program as a bargaining chip and trust me they would love to be able to do so, and show how big a double standard there is in this whole mess.

 

[washunut]

Er okay. The Palestinians (not the Hamas scum) have been very flexible .. hell even Arafat was, and time and time again any deals was destroyed by the radicals on both sides. If anyone has to be flexible these days, then it is that idiot that runs Israel at the moment. Talk to the moderates among the Palestinians.. make a deal with the West Bank, make peace, and let Hamas cry in their blockaded hell hole. It seems that Israel does not understand the idea of divide and conquer...



Of course there is disdain for Israeli leaders.. they lie through their teeth time and time again. They do not want to negotiate peace, that is very clear. That is why they have been in part side lined in this case.

But the main reason that Israel was "not heard" is because they are a poison pill. Had Israel been involved then the Iranians would have had massive firepower to demand Israel come clean on its nuclear programs and Israel would be defacto forced to do so to get any deal. By not including Israel, it basically lets Israel of the hook and Iran cant use the Israeli nuclear program as a bargaining chip and trust me they would love to be able to do so, and show how big a double standard there is in this whole mess.

I do agree that israeli leaders should be flexible and try to reach a deal with Abbas. Don't know how you get around the issue of Gaza though. Perhaps Israel should just call Gaza its own state, with Hamas as their leadership. If they did so, no one could say Israel is to harsh with a neighbor who calls for war.

 

[PeteEU]

I do agree that israeli leaders should be flexible and try to reach a deal with Abbas. Don't know how you get around the issue of Gaza though. Perhaps Israel should just call Gaza its own state, with Hamas as their leadership. If they did so, no one could say Israel is to harsh with a neighbor who calls for war.

Exactly... divide and conquer. Make peace with Abbas and the west bank. Block them off from Israel no problem, but remove all IDF forces and settlements that are on the wrong side of the wall. Compensate for that land with land in Israel (aka land swap). Let them run things and full access to the world. That will destroy Hamas when the people of the West Bank see the benefits of peace and freedom.

Problem is both sides are reactionary.. so anything can ruin any deal.. one attack and Israel retaliates and increase settlements. Israel needs to be the bigger man, and make the freaking deal. If the Palestinians then screw up, then the world will see it and have zero sympathy for them. All they see now is the brutal rule of the IDF in the occupied areas..