Apology to Native Americans/Aborigals/First Nations

[NatMorton]

The earliest forms of human civilization were socialistic in nature. All farmers would contribute to a shared grain storage, from which craftsmen and tradespeople would draw uniform wages of grain. This is a form of dependency, and yet it is also productive.

I don't think you understand what I mean by dependency; in this context it's not co-dependency. The farmer and craftsman work together, each putting in a day's work and cooperating by exchanging what they produce. We're discussing the gent who -- for whatever reason -- has been sitting on his arse all day and is given both grain and goods out of the kindness of those who work.

In almost every society there are those who pull the wagon and those who ride in the wagon. Those who can pull and don't aren't always helped by a continued free ride.

 

[Irredentist]

I don't think you understand what I mean by dependency; in this context it's not co-dependency. The farmer and craftsman work together, each putting in a day's work and cooperating by exchanging what they produce. We're discussing the gent who -- for whatever reason -- has been sitting on his arse all day and is given both grain and goods out of the kindness of those who work.

In almost every society there are those who pull the wagon and those who ride in the wagon. Those who can pull and don't aren't always helped by a continued free ride.

That depends on what you mean by "help". Providing them with grain and goods certainly helps them to survive. Perhaps it will never make them "net producers". But then, they do not need to be. Resources are not scarce in our society. They are plentiful, but unevenly distributed.

 

[NatMorton]

But then, they do not need to be. Resources are not scarce in our society.

This is where we differ. Anyone who can be a net producer and chooses not to should be ashamed of themselves. In fact, one could argue they should receive no help (or only the bare minimum) leaving more resources to help those truly in need.

 

[oneworld2]

I have mentioned several times that any remark of racism or even just the label white should not be taken personally. I was not directing the comments to you personally. The label white does not represent all white people it is just a label. Just as the word maori does not represent all maori or any one particular maori. In fact the word maori is a white invention.


If you do not like the term white I can always start calling you a pakeha, if that would make you feel better.


However that did not stop me from pointing out that a few of your remarks was in the line of imagined white superiority.ie, that telling whites they are interfering rather than helping is usually seen as they are to proud rather than whites are interfering.

An apology would be good but of what use is an apology when most here have no idea what an apology is for.

I never accused you of being a racist just pointed out that some of your remarks are leaning towards white superior attitude. That is not so much racism as it is just a lack of empathy.

I made a distinction and you have not paid attention to that point. There is overt racism but worse than that there is subtle racism which is where the real harm is done. The stealing of children , or some charity deciding what type of houses natives should live in or the many ways in which help really is not help but a way of creating dependency on that help.

Just rereading your comments throughout this thread and some things stick out that refute your claims about not referring to everyone here as racists.

White people are either "overt racists" or, for those that wish to help, condemned to engage in " subtle racism ".

There can be no none racist white initiatves/views. The apology is rejected as a " superior white trash apology ".

The people discussing it are, regardless of their views, " white wankers " who are " masturbating over how wonderful white ways are ."

Complete ignoramuses showing that " none of you ( us ) have a clue beyond your small white privileges."

Looks like my friend might have met someone just like you when he was kicked out of the bar and spared a beating for being white.

 

[Irredentist]

This is where we differ. Anyone who can be a net producer and chooses not to should be ashamed of themselves. In fact, one could argue they should receive no help (or only the bare minimum) leaving more resources to help those truly in need.

So, someone who stays at home to cook and care for children should be ashamed of themselves because they are not a net economic producer? That doesn't seem like a fair analysis.

Just because someone doesn't directly contribute economic value doesn't mean they aren't useful to society. On the contrary, it gives them for time for cultural, scientific, educational, artistic, or familial pursuits. And those are arguably more important.

 

[NatMorton]

So, someone who stays at home to cook and care for children should be ashamed of themselves because they are not a net economic producer? That doesn't seem like a fair analysis.

Sigh.

Are they collecting a welfare check while doing it?

 

[Irredentist]

Sigh.

Are they collecting a welfare check while doing it?

Let's say yes. Should a stay at home mom who collects welfare be ashamed of herself, solely because the work that she does to care for her family does not produce economic value?

 

[NatMorton]

Let's say yes. Should a stay at home mom who collects welfare be ashamed of herself, solely because the work that she does to care for her family does not produce economic value?

Yes, she should.

 

[Antiwar]

Yes, she should.

Austerity ends up costing more.

 

[Irredentist]

Yes, she should.

And why is that? Do you not believe that childcare and homemaking are beneficial tasks to society? Or do you merely believe that people do not deserve to be paid for them?

 

[VanceMack]

To be fair, Canadians trigger @VanceMack into new realms of butthurt and garment tearing. You should probably adjust your expectations going forward. The man just can't deal with the fact that folks outside of the continental US have opinions.

Triggered? you 'people' are a crack up. I dont get 'butthurt' over Canadians...I simply dont give a **** ABOUT Canadians. Maybe thats what pisses YOU lot off so much...because you are so...irrelevant. I get that you HAVE opinions...its just that no one gives a shit about what they are.

 

[soylentgreen]

Just rereading your comments throughout this thread and some things stick out that refute your claims about not referring to everyone here as racists.

White people are either "overt racists" or, for those that wish to help, condemned to engage in " subtle racism ".

There can be no none racist white initiatves/views. The apology is rejected as a " superior white trash apology ".

The people discussing it are, regardless of their views, " white wankers " who are " masturbating over how wonderful white ways are ."

Complete ignoramuses showing that " none of you ( us ) have a clue beyond your small white privileges."

Looks like my friend might have met someone just like you when he was kicked out of the bar and spared a beating for being white.

No, I never said white people are overt racists. I said there is overt racism and subtle racism. Nor did I say that those who wish to help engage is subtle racism. I said subtle racism was worse than overt racism. pretending only whites engage in this is your assumption, not mine.

Again ,no never said an apology is a " superior white trash apology . I said an apology is meaningless because many here have no idea what an apology is for.

Again not words I have used or is even close to the meaning i have made. But I did say that the people discussing this subject on this thread are demonstrating the same old problem of whites know better than the natives on how natives should live.

Whether or not you or "us" have a clue is only known when you / "us" demonstrate you actually have a clue.

One thing that sticks out for me is your dislike for the word white. And in that you might be correct. If I was talking about this in nz the word white would not be used but instead the word pakeha would be used. My mistake was in thinking that since I am talking to americans I should use american words which i did, but failed to recognise that the two words have different meanings.

White represents you, so you get offended when I say white. The word pakeha has a few meanings such as ghost, white or stranger. But in this context it also means , not maori. And that is how I meant white. Simply that those I refer to as white are not a native rather than you are a member of a group. So I will accept that is my mistake here in using a word incorrectly.

The word white has little meaning in nz as there are plenty of white maori. I know of a few who have red hair, blue eyes and freckles on their white skin. Yet they are legally and culturally maori.

 

[NatMorton]

And why is that? Do you not believe that childcare and homemaking are beneficial tasks to society? Or do you merely believe that people do not deserve to be paid for them?

I believe those of us who are able have an obligation not to be a burden to others.

 

[OlNate]

Triggered? you 'people' are a crack up. I dont get 'butthurt' over Canadians...I simply dont give a **** ABOUT Canadians. Maybe thats what pisses YOU lot off so much...because you are so...irrelevant. I get that you HAVE opinions...its just that no one gives a shit about what they are.

Bahaha....that's why you respond each and every time. Gotcha again, Vance... Don't mind me, I'm just over here not mattering, don't act so triggered...

 

[VanceMack]

Bahaha....that's why you respond each and every time. Gotcha again, Vance... Don't mind me, I'm just over here not mattering, don't act so triggered...

"respond every time"? Dood...thats the first comment of yours I have so much as READ in...what...4 months? And all you can manage to do is demonstrate 'why'.



Like I said...you 'people' are a crack up.

 

[OlNate]

"respond every time"? Dood...thats the first comment of yours I have so much as READ in...what...4 months? And all you can manage to do is demonstrate 'why'.



Like I said...you 'people' are a crack up.

Cool story, bro....but that makes two responses in one day. Maybe I matter after all...lmao Careful, like everything else you do here, this seems to be spiraling in your opponent's favor....

 

[soylentgreen]

This is where we differ. Anyone who can be a net producer and chooses not to should be ashamed of themselves. In fact, one could argue they should receive no help (or only the bare minimum) leaving more resources to help those truly in need.

You seem to want to set up double standards. You complain if the natives get this kind of deal but ignore the fact that that is what white farmers are getting.

The Agricultural Adjustment Act (AAA) was a United States federal law of the New Deal era designed to boost agricultural prices by reducing surpluses. The government bought livestock for slaughter and paid farmers subsidies not to plant on part of their land. The money for these subsidies was generated through an exclusive tax on companies which processed farm products.

 

[oneworld2]

No, I never said white people are overt racists. I said there is overt racism and subtle racism. Nor did I say that those who wish to help engage is subtle racism. I said subtle racism was worse than overt racism. pretending only whites engage in this is your assumption, not mine.

Again ,no never said an apology is a " superior white trash apology . I said an apology is meaningless because many here have no idea what an apology is for.

Again not words I have used or is even close to the meaning i have made. But I did say that the people discussing this subject on this thread are demonstrating the same old problem of whites know better than the natives on how natives should live.

Whether or not you or "us" have a clue is only known when you / "us" demonstrate you actually have a clue.

One thing that sticks out for me is your dislike for the word white. And in that you might be correct. If I was talking about this in nz the word white would not be used but instead the word pakeha would be used. My mistake was in thinking that since I am talking to americans I should use american words which i did, but failed to recognise that the two words have different meanings.

White represents you, so you get offended when I say white. The word pakeha has a few meanings such as ghost, white or stranger. But in this context it also means , not maori. And that is how I meant white. Simply that those I refer to as white are not a native rather than you are a member of a group. So I will accept that is my mistake here in using a word incorrectly.

The word white has little meaning in nz as there are plenty of white maori. I know of a few who have red hair, blue eyes and freckles on their white skin. Yet they are legally and culturally maori.

Every quote that I cited of yours is correct. I can understand why you would want to deny it, but if you want me to do a direct access quote for everyone of them I will, no problem. This was your starting point and you have consistantly crawfished back on this since I decided to start poking around as to where you were coming from.

I have come to the conclusion that you are the native version of the white " overt " racist people you have been slagging off since the start which makes you as much a part of the problem as they are.

here's the list of posts I quoted all of your racist comments from that you claim are not your words............. I've bolded waht I quoted . First this post

A bunch of white wankers talking about how they are going to fix a problem with non white natives. What a laugh.

It is quite obvious from the comments that none of you have a clue beyond your small white privileges.

Please stop masturbating over how wonderful white ways are and simply just respect the fact that the natives do not live by your rules and nor should they have to. It is not the land they covet, that merely gives them a place to live. It is their culture, their language, their sense of self identity that you white people need to learn to respect.

But unfortunately all you see is a poor people who need your white help. You are making beggars of them, not them.

and then this post

No ones cares about your apology. It would have no meaning and no effect.

What you should care about is the stolen children. The mining companies that cheat the natives out of their rights or a government that does not recognise their existence, every crime that police commit against them and the countless other injustices done.

No one cares about your superior white trash apology believe me.

I honestly don't mind you calling me white, what I object to is you painting every white person as a racist. We are all racist to a degree anyhow imo but you are coming across as the native version of the overt racist white person. That post was made up of accurate quotes from you before you decided to put a brake on it because I think you knew what my questions were actually directed at.

I wish you no ill but have and will be judging your content as coming from just another overt racist viewpoint

 

[soylentgreen]

Every quote that I cited of yours is correct. I can understand why you would want to deny it, but if you want me to do a direct access quote for everyone of them I will, no problem. This was your starting point and you have consistantly crawfished back on this since I decided to start poking around as to where you were coming from.

But you did not quote anything I have said. You merely gave your interpretation of what i said. And I did not say any of those things you interpreted. Please direct access for me. Andno, all you have done so far is take offense. Your problem, not mine.

I have come to the conclusion that you are the native version of the white " overt " racist people you have been slagging off since the start which makes you as much a part of the problem as they are.

here's the list of posts I quoted all of your racist comments from that you claim are not your words............. I've bolded waht I quoted . First this post

and then this post

I have no problem showing contempt for people who have made the comments that I said these things about. They are basically nothing more than people who have no clue and whose idea of making life better is by turning natives into some kind of white culture . Pointing out the theft of children is the most blatant action that proves that.

I honestly don't mind you calling me white, what I object to is you painting every white person as a racist. We are all racist to a degree anyhow imo but you are coming across as the native version of the overt racist white person. That post was made up of accurate quotes from you before you decided to put a brake on it because I think you knew what my questions were actually directed at.

I am not painting every white person. That again is your problem not mine. You are simply using that as an excuse to avoid looking at the points of how the culture of white people is destroying the culture of the natives by thinking it is helpful to turn natives into what will always remain second class citizens.

I wish you no ill but have and will be judging your content as coming from just another overt racist viewpoint

Yes, I understand , you need an excuse to avoid dealing with the fact that really it is a case of the white population is at fault here.

 

[oneworld2]

But you did not quote anything I have said. You merely gave your interpretation of what i said. And I did not say any of those things you interpreted. Please direct access for me. Andno, all you have done so far is take offense. Your problem, not mine.

They are verbatim quotes taken from you own posts, they are not "interpretations". If you click on the arrows next to the quote it takes you straight to the posts themselves.

I am not taking offence, I think I know now what is fuelling this. I am, however, refusing to be put into one of your " overt " " subtle " racist white racist pigeonholes.

I have no problem showing contempt for people who have made the comments that I said these things about. They are basically nothing more than people who have no clue and whose idea of making life better is by turning natives into some kind of white culture . Pointing out the theft of children is the most blatant action that proves that.

And that " contempt" is obviously aimed at all white people. I understand why people might think that way but I don't have to accept it. I see those entrenched positions, on both sides, as a big part of the problem

I am not painting every white person. That again is your problem not mine. You are simply using that as an excuse to avoid looking at the points of how the culture of white people is destroying the culture of the natives by thinking it is helpful to turn natives into what will always remain second class citizens.

Well, I've yet to hear you mention any white group of people in anything other than the racist pigeonholing you have them catagorized as. I am not avoiding anything. I am just saying,imo, the govt finances/aid, whatever you want to call it, should be given to the indigenous themselves so they can sort their own issues out. But that is still not good enough lols

Yes, I understand , you need an excuse to avoid dealing with the fact that really it is a case of the white population is at fault here.

Nah, it's a case that your " contempt" for white people leads you to tar them all with the same racist tripe you object to seeing in them themselves. I understand the anger and I understand the frustration but at the end of the day you come across as being the other cheek on the same bum of racism as the true white racists we see today. IE the native part of the problem that rejects all offers because they hate where they come from. I actually understand that too. That's why I wish you no ill, I just will not be able to talk to you properly on this subject because of it.

 

[soylentgreen]

They are verbatim quotes taken from you own posts, they are not "interpretations". If you click on the arrows next to the quote it takes you straight to the posts themselves.

No I was referring to your post #179, they were your interpretations , not what i said. That which you are referring to now I have no problem with saying. It is a good description of things said in this post by some at the time.

I am not taking offence, I think I know now what is fuelling this. I am, however, refusing to be put into one of your " overt " " subtle " racist white racist pigeonholes.

Yes, it is s common mistake you are making there to take this personally especially when I have said a few times that it was not related to you personally. So far you have not said anything that would want me to put you in same catagory. It is you who are putting yourself there.

And that " contempt" is obviously aimed at all white people. I understand why people might think that way but I don't have to accept it. I see those entrenched positions, on both sides, as a big part of the problem

No, the contempt is aimed at people who use very stupid arguments. For this particular thread that would be the group of white.

Well, I've yet to hear you mention any white group of people in anything other than the racist pigeonholing you have them catagorized as. I am not avoiding anything. I am just saying,imo, the govt finances/aid, whatever you want to call it, should be given to the indigenous themselves so they can sort their own issues out. But that is still not good enough lols

Again kudos on you for the attempt to change the subject from how poorly the natives are treated to why the whites need their fragile egos soothed. Now I am supposed to say comforting things about whites . The fact that you have agreed with me is nice but how does this change the fact that others here still argue otherwise.

Nah, it's a case that your " contempt" for white people leads you to tar them all with the same racist tripe you object to seeing in them themselves. I understand the anger and I understand the frustration but at the end of the day you come across as being the other cheek on the same bum of racism as the true white racists we see today. IE the native part of the problem that rejects all offers because they hate where they come from. I actually understand that too. That's why I wish you no ill, I just will not be able to talk to you properly on this subject because of it.

No, I think it more a case that you cannot take a generalisation and not see it personally.

You make false accusations. I have never said natives should reject the offer of help. I have said that what whites think is help is actually interference. Two completely different things.

 

[oneworld2]

No I was referring to your post #179, they were your interpretations , not what i said. That which you are referring to now I have no problem with saying. It is a good description of things said in this post by some at the time.

But you said " none of you have a clue" and that means everyone including me and I would imagine some others who would not support assistance that led to dependence instead of independence. That's why I decided to ask where are the references to these people? You have given two groups to white commentators here. "Overt racists" and those that mean well but engage in "subtle racism". Are there any white people that have strayed far enough away from their default racist inheritance enough to be considered outside of these two groupings?> Just curious because if there are you haven't referred to them.

Yes, it is s common mistake you are making there to take this personally especially when I have said a few times that it was not related to you personally. So far you have not said anything that would want me to put you in same catagory. It is you who are putting yourself there.

In the absence in your commentary of any whites here being outside of the two groups you have referred to, it is wholly reasonable to think that seeing as " none of " us " have a clue" I would have been included in both the catagorization and the blanket statement referred to above. That's not " me putting myself there " , it's you having made statements and comments that have put everyone who is white in the frame of racism. These generalizations are the bedrock of how every racist portrays their targetted group and then they do what you have done, claimed that they are not referring to all whoevers.

No, the contempt is aimed at people who use very stupid arguments. For this particular thread that would be the group of white.

For the crass racists here I would agree with you but I don't think that it's a true reflection of the comments of all white people here. It appears that even the ones that agree with you on how best to redress the issues in our regarding racism and racial injustice are judged by you as those well meaning but ignorant people engaging in subtle racism. The above is just another example of blanket statements being used against everyone in the group.

Again kudos on you for the attempt to change the subject from how poorly the natives are treated to why the whites need their fragile egos soothed. Now I am supposed to say comforting things about whites . The fact that you have agreed with me is nice but how does this change the fact that others here still argue otherwise.

Now those that agree with you need their " fragile egos soothed ". Wow, it just goes on and on but is denied by yourself at every turn. You don't have to say anything about whites, just accept that like any other group there are good and bad, if you will ever allow yourself to stray away from your own racist default. I am comfy in my skin and really don't need people to say nice things about the racial group I come from. Seriously, I am not a snowflake on such things.

No, I think it more a case that you cannot take a generalisation and not see it personally.

We can agree to disagree but recall who is the one making the blanket statements about the racial groups that have, so far at least, included everyone

You make false accusations. I have never said natives should reject the offer of help. I have said that what whites think is help is actually interference. Two completely different things.

I would say that it is a two way street where the least racist, on both sides, should be the ones working out how to address the situation of racial injustice and all the ills that stem from it and I am not so sure that would include you. How far have you stayed from the default racism we are all afflicted with ? It's a valid question that we should all be asking ourselves.