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Apology to Native Americans/Aborigals/First Nations

In other words, you're all for reparations so long as you get to keep your stolen land.

Got it.
What's the problem with people owning a small plot of land with a house on it?
 
In other words, you're all for reparations so long as you get to keep your stolen land.

Got it.
I'm fine with the government buying it back from me and giving it to the Natives. After all, I did not steal it. They did.
 
Collectively, Europeans were aggressive assholes.
There were also the most technically and socially advanced culture on the planet. While Native Americans where still banging rocks Kepler was figuring out planetary motion, Da Vinci was painting the Mona Lisa, Adam Smith was writing the Wealth of Nations, Mozart was composing his opera, and James Watt was inventing the steam engine. The modern comforts and freedoms we enjoy today stem directly from Europe's Renaissance and Age of Enlightenment.

Your view of Europe is, ironically, quite primitive.
 
So what if it did if they were relatively healthy and "happy"?
Very apt to use quotation marks there.

If you think dependency is something worth aspiring to there's not much more I can say to help. You're lost.
 
There were also the most technically and socially advanced culture on the planet. While Native Americans where still banging rocks Kepler was figuring out planetary motion, Da Vinci was painting the Mona Lisa, Adam Smith was writing the Wealth of Nations, Mozart was composing his opera, and James Watt was inventing the steam engine. The modern comforts and freedoms we enjoy today stem directly from Europe's Renaissance and Age of Enlightenment.

Your view of Europe is, ironically, quite primitive.
Technological advances are irrelevant to being aggressive assholes.

Our technologies are killing us
 
I'm fine with the government buying it back from me and giving it to the Natives. After all, I did not steal it. They did.
Exactly. So long as it ultimately does not cost you anything, reparations are the thing to do.
 
Very apt to use quotation marks there.

If you think dependency is something worth aspiring to there's not much more I can say to help. You're lost.
You're dependent. Everyone's dependent. No one is independent. You believe in myths.
 
You're dependent. Everyone's dependent. No one is independent. You believe in myths.
Yes, we are all dependent on government to protect our basic freedoms and to maintain social order. But that is not the type of dependence we are discussing here, and I think you know that, so stop trying to derail the thread.
 
Yes, we are all dependent on government to protect our basic freedoms and to maintain social order. But that is not the type of dependence we are discussing here, and I think you know that, so stop trying to derail the thread.
Can you think deeper? Or is this just a petty game to you?
 
You're the one trying to push a superficial definition of dependence, not me.
Directly quote the definition of dependence I posted.

When you say dependence you say welfare, simultaneously.
 
Directly quote the definition of dependence I posted.

When you say dependence you say welfare, simultaneously.
I'm not saying dependence and welfare are synonymous. I am saying welfare is a kind of dependency, which it most certainly is, and being dependent on the charity of others is no way to live a life for the able-bodied.
 
I'm not saying dependence and welfare are synonymous. I am saying welfare is a kind of dependency, which it most certainly is, and being dependent on the charity of others is no way to live a life for the able-bodied.
That might make a good thread.
 
I'm not saying dependence and welfare are synonymous. I am saying welfare is a kind of dependency, which it most certainly is, and being dependent on the charity of others is no way to live a life for the able-bodied.

The earliest forms of human civilization were socialistic in nature. All farmers would contribute to a shared grain storage, from which craftsmen and tradespeople would draw uniform wages of grain. This is a form of dependency, and yet it is also productive.
 
Red_Cloud.JPG


Red Cloud was a Sioux who was pretty good at defeating the American military.

How did we beat him? We brought him to our cities. We showed him our factories and armories.

He returned home and said, "It's all over. There's an ocean of white people on the other side of the mountains."



.
 
You too. Do you not realize how stupid you sound here?

To be fair, Canadians trigger @VanceMack into new realms of butthurt and garment tearing. You should probably adjust your expectations going forward. The man just can't deal with the fact that folks outside of the continental US have opinions.
 
To be fair, Canadians trigger @VanceMack into new realms of butthurt and garment tearing. You should probably adjust your expectations going forward. The man just can't deal with the fact that folks outside of the continental US have opinions.
The angriest man on the Internet. Always accusing the left of being over-the-top and over-reacting.
Pretty sure I'm on his ignore list, so the only way he'll see my posts is if someone else quotes me.
Some of those guys sure do get triggered by Canadians. It's odd, you seldom see them tee off on other nationalities but Canadians can sure piss them off. If they want to compare the US to another country, they always chose a European nation, or the whole continent rather than their nearest neighbour.
Maybe they're just offended by the notion that there's an entire country north of Buffalo, N.Y., north of North Dakota.
 
Yes, we make our own destiny -- unless we're Native Americans, and then only government subsidies can shape our future.

The destiny comment was regarding all humanity, not a specific group/race/nationality.

I think some payment for the treasures stolen isn't too much to ask, do you ? Especially if those funds could engender a situation whereby a much greater degree of economic/financial independence could be created.
 
Sounds a bit like the factory owner who says "Sure, we're losing $10 on every unit, but we'll make it up in volume."

No it doesn't. It sounds like giving people the means to get themselves out of a state of dependency so they can actually cease being dependent on govt hand outs. How can turning the unemployed into tax payers be considered as being indicative of the above ?
 
Nope, I fully understand why indigenous people would be resentful towards white folk and tired of being told what to do by them. I was asking those questions to see how that might apply to the views you were expressing.

They told my friend that by not serving him they were saving him from a likely beating by the Maori people in the bar, so I suppose they might have seen that as " doing him a favour". He,like I, just saw it as racism which it obviously is. So, glad we can agree that racists exist on both sides/all sides and that each group is something of a mixed bag.

You see, I don't see myself as a "problem " wrt the correct way to go about making the lives of the indigenous populations very much better. I think an apology is the start. I think that financial assistance should be given to the indigenous peoples themselves so that they can decide how best to go about addressing problematic issues within their status quo. That seems to be what you are wanting to happen, maybe with the exception of an apology that you appear to think is meaningless, ( we can agree to disagree ) but at the same time still feel the need to constantly refer to my , alleged, racism.

I haven't turned the thread away from how poorly indigenous people have been and are still being treated. Right from the start I have been clear on this and have constantly stated a wish to see things change for the better. Throughout you have accused me of being a racist without any logical argument to back it up, with just the same old tired use of the fact that I am white to serve as a supposed justification for you rubbishing of all that I say. The man who wants to train the dog and not the kids. The man who thinks he knows what it's like to be the pregnant woman etc etc.

To think the above you would have had to disregard all that I have said because none of it representative of how I think. I actually think it is your own attitude that is problematic. Inferring that even the people who agree with you on how things have been and how making the situation better should be done are still racist smacks of racism itself

I have mentioned several times that any remark of racism or even just the label white should not be taken personally. I was not directing the comments to you personally. The label white does not represent all white people it is just a label. Just as the word maori does not represent all maori or any one particular maori. In fact the word maori is a white invention.
The word ‘Māori’ is thought to be a post-European-contact term for the first inhabitants of New Zealand. It originally meant ordinary or local. Only after another race of people arrived in their country did the original inhabitants need a term to define themselves separately from the new arrivals. Māori also adapted the term ‘tangata whenua’ (people of the land), referring to local iwi or hapū, to define themselves as distinct from non-Māori. This also means ‘those who were here first’ and ‘host people’. It is still widely used among present-day Māori.

If you do not like the term white I can always start calling you a pakeha, if that would make you feel better.


However that did not stop me from pointing out that a few of your remarks was in the line of imagined white superiority.ie, that telling whites they are interfering rather than helping is usually seen as they are to proud rather than whites are interfering.

An apology would be good but of what use is an apology when most here have no idea what an apology is for.

I never accused you of being a racist just pointed out that some of your remarks are leaning towards white superior attitude. That is not so much racism as it is just a lack of empathy.

I made a distinction and you have not paid attention to that point. There is overt racism but worse than that there is subtle racism which is where the real harm is done. The stealing of children , or some charity deciding what type of houses natives should live in or the many ways in which help really is not help but a way of creating dependency on that help.
 
Sounds a bit like the factory owner who says "Sure, we're losing $10 on every unit, but we'll make it up in volume."
Your analogy agrees with me. It is the giver that is running the business badly, not the receiver.
 
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