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Apology to Native Americans/Aborigals/First Nations

soylentgreen said:
In a sense i did answer then when I pointed out that the attitude given by those questions is that the natives are at fault for being tired of white people telling them what is the best way to live.

Of course racism exists on both sides. Did your friend consider they were doing him a favour.

No, there is no claim all whites are the same. Nor are all natives the same.

It is bureaucracy that is more the problem than individuals like yourself. Getting the government to understand that many of the problems are caused by their creating a dependency culture.

I feel no broadbrushing at all. This is a conversation about two differing cultures and it simple convenience to divide them into labeled groups. White is just a label not any one particular person.

But then again kudos for you in turning a thread about how poorly the natives are being treated into a thread about how poorly whites are being labeled.
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Nope, I fully understand why indigenous people would be resentful towards white folk and tired of being told what to do by them. I was asking those questions to see how that might apply to the views you were expressing.

They told my friend that by not serving him they were saving him from a likely beating by the Maori people in the bar, so I suppose they might have seen that as " doing him a favour". He,like I, just saw it as racism which it obviously is. So, glad we can agree that racists exist on both sides/all sides and that each group is something of a mixed bag.

You see, I don't see myself as a "problem " wrt the correct way to go about making the lives of the indigenous populations very much better. I think an apology is the start. I think that financial assistance should be given to the indigenous peoples themselves so that they can decide how best to go about addressing problematic issues within their status quo. That seems to be what you are wanting to happen, maybe with the exception of an apology that you appear to think is meaningless, ( we can agree to disagree ) but at the same time still feel the need to constantly refer to my , alleged, racism.

I haven't turned the thread away from how poorly indigenous people have been and are still being treated. Right from the start I have been clear on this and have constantly stated a wish to see things change for the better. Throughout you have accused me of being a racist without any logical argument to back it up, with just the same old tired use of the fact that I am white to serve as a supposed justification for you rubbishing of all that I say. The man who wants to train the dog and not the kids. The man who thinks he knows what it's like to be the pregnant woman etc etc.

To think the above you would have had to disregard all that I have said because none of it representative of how I think. I actually think it is your own attitude that is problematic. Inferring that even the people who agree with you on how things have been and how making the situation better should be done are still racist smacks of racism itself
 
NatMorton said:
How much and for how long?
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As much as possible for as long as it takes for them to become economically independent and be leading lives that they are enjoying as much as everyone else in the society
 
NatMorton said:
When will you be giving back yours?
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Just because the ship has sailed does not mean we should not reconcile with the atrocities of our past. Maybe that is the difference between the Hard Right and moderates--we mods at least acknowledge errors have been made. The Right just doubles down on stupid because they never learn.
 
oneworld2 said:
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As much as possible for as long as it takes for them to become economically independent and be leading lives that they are enjoying as much as everyone else in the society
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Ah, and there's the possible flaw. What if the money fosters dependency rather than independence?
 
calamity said:
Just because the ship has sailed does not mean we should not reconcile with the atrocities of our past. Maybe that is the difference between the Hard Right and moderates--we mods at least acknowledge errors have been made. The Right just doubles down on stupid because they never learn.
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In other words, you're all for reparations so long as you get to keep your stolen land.

Got it.
 
NatMorton said:
Ah, and there's the possible flaw. What if the money fosters dependency rather than independence?
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Dependency is the status quo. The money spent should in developing a more independent position imho
 
NatMorton said:
And if your plans are to work you might consider prayer beads.
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We make our own destiny. If enough time and effort is put in I think that will bare fruit. Gods are for those who need them imho
 
oneworld2 said:
Dependency is the status quo. The money spent should in developing a more independent position imho
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Sounds a bit like the factory owner who says "Sure, we're losing $10 on every unit, but we'll make it up in volume."
 
oneworld2 said:
We make our own destiny. If enough time and effort is put in I think that will bare fruit. Gods are for those who need them imho
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Yes, we make our own destiny -- unless we're Native Americans, and then only government subsidies can shape our future.
 
Folks, you cannot make up for the sins of the past. There are simply too many of them. All you can do is aim for equal treatment under the law going forward. Native Americans are going to have to shape their own future, and insisting that others fund programs primarily aimed at assuaging your sense of cultural guilt will only stand in their way.
 
NatMorton said:
Again, you're ranting.

Native Americans, at the time of European colonization, were a collection of stone-aged cultures. They were no match for the Europeans' technology and social organization. They were also human with all the flaws that come with humanity. I can't imagine why you think either of those points is worth objecting to.
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Because:

We need to incorporate (< not strong enough of a word for my meaning) the beauties of aboriginal lifestyles into our self-defeating lifestyle. The American lifestyle has always had a lot of stupidity/arrogance.

Nobody knows how America would've been had some (not all) proto-Americans not been genocidal assholes. What if Americans had realized, "Oh, shit, these human beings are dying from small pox; maybe we ought to do what we can to help the situation instead of hurting the situation." Novel concept, huh?

"Hey guys, how about we try our best to coexist with these people instead of commiting genocide?"

Why were Europeans so blind to concepts like this? Were they dumbasses and/or aggressive entitled assholes? Maybe it's because European socioeconomic models sucked?
 
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NatMorton said:
Yes, we make our own destiny -- unless we're Native Americans, and then only government subsidies can shape our future.
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Gee, I wonder where mean old liberals get their wild ideas about conservatives from.

Gee, why do decimated cultures/peoples have a percentage of their populations that struggle with modern American dog-eat-dog culture?
 
Antiwar said:
We need to incorporate (< not strong enough of a word for my meaning) the beauties of aboriginal lifestyles into our self-defeating lifestyle.
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Well, Liz Warren certainly tried, though with limited success.

Antiwar said:
"Oh, shit, these human beings are dying from small pox; maybe we ought to do what we can to help the situation instead of hurting the situation." Novel concept, eh?
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Yes, quite novel to believe that Renaissance-era explorers would have an innate sense of immunology and communicable diseases.

Antiwar said:
Why were Europeans so blind to concepts like this? Were they dumbasses and/or aggressive entitled assholes?
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They were people of their time, no better and no worse than anyone else, then or now.
 
Antiwar said:
Gee, I wonder where mean old liberals get their wild ideas about conservatives from.

Gee, why do decimated cultures/peoples have a percentage of their populations that struggle with modern American dog-eat-dog culture?
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Woof.
 
NatMorton said:
Folks, you cannot make up for the sins of the past. There are simply too many of them. ...
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You got that right.

We can radically transform our society. All signs point to we need to radically transform our Earthly societies.
 
NatMorton said:
Well, Liz Warren certainly tried, though with limited success.
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Weeeeak.

Yes, quite novel to believe that Renaissance-era explorers would have an innate sense of immunology and communicable diseases.
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They were clueless about health and plagues?

They were people of their time, no better and no worse than anyone else, then or now.
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Collectively, Europeans were aggressive assholes.
 
NatMorton said:
Ah, and there's the possible flaw. What if the money fosters dependency rather than independence?
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So what if it did if they were relatively healthy and "happy"?

Europeans were dependent on theft, genocide, and slavery.
 
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