Anyone Else Sick of this Debate?

[steen]

:rofl Santorum.... you mean this guy?

"If the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual [Gay] sex within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery. You have the right to anything!" -Rick Santorum

And he is the guy who pushed "Intelligent Design" in the school as well.

 

[steen]

I hope this is true, but honestly, I have heard the same thoughts regarding birth control from other pro-lifers. Thus my, maybe paranoid, suspicion that there is an agenda waiting in the wings.

It isn't really "waiting" that much:

"It’s very healthy for a young girl to be deterred from promiscuity by fear of contracting a painful, incurable disease, or cervical cancer, or sterility, or the likelihood of giving birth to a dead, blind, or brain-damaged baby."

"Sex education classes are like in-home sales parties for abortions."

Both per Phyllis Schlafley

 

[cnredd]

Who woulda thunk a thread mentioning how they're sick of the "abortion debate" would turn into an abortion debate... :roll:

 

[mixedmedia]

Who woulda thunk a thread mentioning how they're sick of the "abortion debate" would turn into an abortion debate... :roll:

I know, I know....and it's generally a topic I avoid like the plague.

But Felicity's alright. She's the first person I've found here that I can talk to about it. Good talk can never be out of place. :2wave:

 

[ngdawg]

And I hope you see that that is what I was saying in the last post of mine...


See--I find this as an admission to the self-centeredness of it. To me, sex should say "I love you--all of you--with no reservation" and BC says "I love you --all of you--EXCEPT your fertility." I believe being objectified thusly does not offer peace of mind--it's a delusion.

Used to use BC--It's better when it's totally REAL.

I don't doubt it--that's why I said a 16 yr old gettin' DP boobs. (the quotation marks was unconscious. Kind-of a typing tick I have akin to the dashes and elipsises that I use too much!:3oops: )



Yeah...we don't need to be overly sensitive when there's plenty of people that actually WANT to be insulting. I don't intend insult (usually--you'd know it if I did) but I do tend to be blunt.


Well--I’m REALLY pro-life, and BC is not on my agenda. Although I will speak what I think of it--I won't try to rid the world of it even if I don't think it's good for you and sometimes kills a new human.

I really don't understand how someone is of the mind that any sexual encounter that has the potential to result in birth can be so against birth control when this is occurring:
http://www.worldwatch.org/press/news/1998/09/24/
The question is not whether population growth will slow in the developing countries," said Brown, "but whether it will slow because societies quickly shift to smaller families or because ecological collapse and social disintegration cause death rates to rise. The challenge for national governments is to assess their land and water resources, determine how many people they will support at the desired level of consumption, and then formulate a population policy to reach that goal."
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2054rank.html

Or this:
South Africa is a nation of 43.6 million. Its birth rate of 25 births and death rate of 15 deaths per 1,000 population contribute to an overall population growth rate of 1.1 percent. Life expectancy at birth is 52 years for women and 50 years for men. The total fertility rate is 2.9 children born per woman and the infant mortality rate is 45 deaths per 1,000 births. South Africa's HIV/AIDS prevalence rate among adults was estimated at 20.1 percent as of 2001, with 5 million people living with HIV/AIDS and 360,000 AIDS-related deaths that year. More than 660,000 children have been orphaned in the epidemic. Source: http://www.fhi.org/en/CountryProfiles/South_Africa_Main_Page.htm

By the 'logic' of being against any form of birth control other than 'charting', you are saying that the poorest countries in the world should be fruitful and multiply, the logistics of HIV, starvation, etc., be damned....

 

[tecoyah]

See--I find this as an admission to the self-centeredness of it. To me, sex should say "I love you--all of you--with no reservation" and BC says "I love you --all of you--EXCEPT your fertility." I believe being objectified thusly does not offer peace of mind--it's a delusion.

I suppose My wife is Guilty of objectifying me.....when she asked if I would get a vascectomy....which I did. Does this mean I am killing a child each month by not impregnating her?

Used to use BC--It's better when it's totally REAL.

Oh.....heh....Its real

I was once in a relationship with a woman that held beliefs similar to yours....the frigidity was unbearable, and was THE reason we parted.

 

[Felicity]

I really don't understand how someone is of the mind that any sexual encounter that has the potential to result in birth can be so against birth control when this is occurring:
http://www.worldwatch.org/press/news/1998/09/24/
The question is not whether population growth will slow in the developing countries," said Brown, "but whether it will slow because societies quickly shift to smaller families or because ecological collapse and social disintegration cause death rates to rise. The challenge for national governments is to assess their land and water resources, determine how many people they will support at the desired level of consumption, and then formulate a population policy to reach that goal."
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/rankorder/2054rank.html

Or this:
South Africa is a nation of 43.6 million. Its birth rate of 25 births and death rate of 15 deaths per 1,000 population contribute to an overall population growth rate of 1.1 percent. Life expectancy at birth is 52 years for women and 50 years for men. The total fertility rate is 2.9 children born per woman and the infant mortality rate is 45 deaths per 1,000 births. South Africa's HIV/AIDS prevalence rate among adults was estimated at 20.1 percent as of 2001, with 5 million people living with HIV/AIDS and 360,000 AIDS-related deaths that year. More than 660,000 children have been orphaned in the epidemic. Source: http://www.fhi.org/en/CountryProfiles/South_Africa_Main_Page.htm

By the 'logic' of being against any form of birth control other than 'charting', you are saying that the poorest countries in the world should be fruitful and multiply, the logistics of HIV, starvation, etc., be damned....

Uhhh...education. There's no difference between my reproductive biology and a women in Africa. The "social" environment/customs are what contribute to the problems more than a lack of contraception. Why not work to improve that rather than bandaid with latex? But all that happens is bickering because of agendas. What is the CORE problem? Fix that.

 

[Felicity]

I suppose My wife is Guilty of objectifying me.....when she asked if I would get a vascectomy....which I did.

Well...yeah--(men don't mind it as much:lol: ) Do you think there was any subtle influence in your wife's request such as she maybe thought it would be too difficult to deal with abstaining a week out of a month and she'd rather not "deal with" the tension that immediate gratification eliminates (yours and/or hers)? You know--there are positives in periodic abstinence that can heighten the eventual experience. (Why is "I wanna lover with a sloooww hand..." running through my mind?) And it can make a relationship even more erotic (geez...I'm creepin' myself out )

Does this mean I am killing a child each month by not impregnating her?

No--but I think you've maimed yourself.

I was once in a relationship with a woman that held beliefs similar to yours....the frigidity was unbearable, and was THE reason we parted.

That's actually an admission that you didn't accept each other completely --but I have a hard time believing that a woman that feels strongly enough about respecting sex as I do would be engaging in pre-marital sex. It's kind diametrically opposed to what I'm suggesting--respecting the covenant of unitive lovemaking. Sounds like she probably was frigid--not loving you.

 

[tecoyah]

That's actually an admission that you didn't accept each other completely --but I have a hard time believing that a woman that feels strongly enough about respecting sex as I do would be engaging in pre-marital sex. It's kind diametrically opposed to what I'm suggesting--respecting the covenant of unitive lovemaking. Sounds like she probably was frigid--not loving you.

You are correct...we were married

 

[Proudly Pro Life JP Freem]

To be fair, CoffeeSaint didn't say you were stupid. Just made an observation about abortion debate in general, and didn't limit his/her observation to one side or the other.

I have always found Coffee Saint very respectful He was not the one I was refering to.

 

[mixedmedia]

I have always found Coffee Saint very respectful He was not the one I was refering to.

CoffeeSaint was the one you quoted in your post. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

[Felicity]

You are correct...we were married

eh...well...when two people aren't "communicating" ---they aren't "communicating." Frigidity is not respecting your beloved--just as wonton lust is not respecting your beloved. Balance in everything, grasshopper. From what you've shared elsewhere that I have read--it sounds like you found the woman you are meant to be with.

 

[Proudly Pro Life JP Freem]

:rofl Santorum.... you mean this guy?

"If the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual [Gay] sex within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery. You have the right to anything!" -Rick Santorum

How ****ing goofy looking IS this guy?

You might not believe this but I am a Bob Casey Democrat. As far as Senator Rick Santorum goes I respect him and I think you have taken what he said out of contex.

 

[Proudly Pro Life JP Freem]

JP, do you have anything new rather than your stupid lies and inuendo?

Like the plague steen refuses to address this question. Now how do you feel about a male paying Pregnancy support until the baby is born. You have always had such a strong opinion on protecting a woman's right. How about her right to have a baby? Note being pregnant means Doctor visits, special diet, lab cost, maternity cloths, plus getting ready for the baby. Since the women did not get pregnant by herself why not have the male partner pay just like child support.

 

[steen]

Like the plague steen refuses to address this question.

Coming from you, that is downright hypocritical.

Now how do you feel about a male paying Pregnancy support until the baby is born.

Bad idea.

You have always had such a strong opinion on protecting a woman's right. How about her right to have a baby?

Absolutely. I find a woman feeling she wants a pregnancy carried to term but feeling unable to do so because of lack of support to be downright criminal by society. But that is what we get when prolife politicians also cut support and instigates "welfare reform" to cheapen their own wallet at the expense of those who need their help. A woman abortion a wanted pregnancy is a tragedy that could have been prevented, had not the prolife, conservative politicians loved their own wallet more than the fetus, those hypocrites.

When republican policies limits women's perceived option for caring for their own child, then they are losing choices. It wrong, hypocritical and cowardly of the prolife politicians to not put their wallet where their mouth is, and instead dumping all the burden on her.

But it IS consistent with the prolife/pro-fault/pro-slavery fundies to elevate the fetus to sainthood, while immediately after birth see the baby as just another welfare leech.

Note being pregnant means Doctor visits, special diet, lab cost, maternity cloths, plus getting ready for the baby. Since the women did not get pregnant by herself why not have the male partner pay just like child support.

Given the tenuous aspect of relationships, and the fundies yammering that the man also needs a choice, the optimum is for ALL of us to take responsibility and fund such through free heath care so there isn't a burden on the woman. As for "child support," that is to the child, so that is irrelevant here.

Now, are you in agreement with the above, or are you more in love with your money and don;t want to have to pay for imposing your wishes on society? You can't possibly be so hypocritical as to wanting others to carry the burden of your policies, can you?

When YOU want a change, of course you are willing to share equitably in paying for the consequences of your policies, right?

 

[steen]

As far as Senator Rick Santorum goes I respect him and I think you have taken what he said out of contex.

And his flip-flop on "intelligent design," is that anything other than vote-pandering when he suddenly found out that the vocal, lying minority was just a minority?

 

[ngdawg]

Uhhh...education. There's no difference between my reproductive biology and a women in Africa. The "social" environment/customs are what contribute to the problems more than a lack of contraception. Why not work to improve that rather than bandaid with latex? But all that happens is bickering because of agendas. What is the CORE problem? Fix that.

Education is an answer, not THE answer. Even the most educated, experienced people in every walk of life trip up. And you have any idea how LONG it would take for education to sink in so that it's results are clearly shown? Generations...
You're articulate, but not realistic at all. Sometimes bandaids are needed until the doctor is available. You seem to want to let the blood flow and let what might happen just happen with no regard for the greater scheme of things.
If you want to have two or twenty kids, that's your decision and ultimately, your problem-globally, when the populations of many countries are reaching a breaking point in their economic, medical and natural resources, which in turn affect other parts of the world, action on a equally global scale is paramount.
But, send them some books...that'll work.

 

[Caine]

You might not believe this but I am a Bob Casey Democrat. As far as Senator Rick Santorum goes I respect him and I think you have taken what he said out of contex.

Im sorry, You can't say stuff like this at all.
It doesn't matter what you say before or after something like this....

Its plainly obvious he is a biggot.

 

[mixedmedia]

And I hope you see that that is what I was saying in the last post of mine...

Yes, I caught that. :smile:

See--I find this as an admission to the self-centeredness of it. To me, sex should say "I love you--all of you--with no reservation" and BC says "I love you --all of you--EXCEPT your fertility." I believe being objectified thusly does not offer peace of mind--it's a delusion.

Well, why would it be self-centered of me if my partner were to say that he didn't love my fertility? And for that matter my fertility has never felt unloved. Trust me. I think the essence of this matter boils down to whether sex is seen chiefly as a means to an end or as an opportunity to enjoy intimacy with someone you love. I have had one, the other, and both. I have felt no more or less loved from one to the other.

Used to use BC--It's better when it's totally REAL.

So much of sex is mental, though, ya know? I can see where, having your beliefs, it would seem that way.

I don't doubt it--that's why I said a 16 yr old gettin' DP boobs. (the quotation marks was unconscious. Kind-of a typing tick I have akin to the dashes and elipsises that I use too much!:3oops: )

Well, I think plastic surgery, outside of reconstructive (or like Dolly, for comfort's sake), is a pretty abhorrent practice because it serves no purpose other than to placate vanity and its paradoxical root cause - a lack of self esteem. I don't equate the desire for tubal ligations or vasectomies with this sort of thinking at all.

Yeah...we don't need to be overly sensitive when there's plenty of people that actually WANT to be insulting. I don't intend insult (usually--you'd know it if I did) but I do tend to be blunt.

Me too, but I strive to be friendly....to a point.

Well--I’m REALLY pro-life, and BC is not on my agenda. Although I will speak what I think of it--I won't try to rid the world of it even if I don't think it's good for you and sometimes kills a new human.

Very good. I think we can work together. :2wave:

 

[Stace]

Since the women did not get pregnant by herself why not have the male partner pay just like child support.

But what happens if she doesn't know who the father is?

 

[Felicity]

But what happens if she doesn't know who the father is?

There once was a girl we’ll call Carrie,
Who laid every Tom, Dick, and Harry.
She got one in the oven
From all of the lovin’
But didn’t know which one to marry!

 

[Stace]

There once was a girl we’ll call Carrie,
Who laid every Tom, Dick, and Harry.
She got one in the oven
From all of the lovin’
But didn’t know which one to marry!

hehe...

Seriously, though. The whole child support during pregnancy thing isn't a completely horrible idea, but it'd be really hard to regulate, seeing as how our state governments can't even get people to pay normal child support!

On a slightly different subject, someone mentioned on another thread (unfortunately, I can't remember who or where ) said something about how brothers and sisters are unknowingly having sex with each other because of deadbeat dads....or something to that effect.

It occurred to me that adoption creates that same problem, when a child doesn't know who their birth parents are, and the birth parents go on to have more children (perhaps giving them up for adoption as well, or maybe they actually decided to live up to their responsibility finally).

Jusst a thought.

 

[Felicity]

Well, I think plastic surgery, outside of reconstructive (or like Dolly, for comfort's sake), is a pretty abhorrent practice because it serves no purpose other than to placate vanity and its paradoxical root cause - a lack of self esteem. I don't equate the desire for tubal ligations or vasectomies with this sort of thinking at all.

Really--you don't see the similarity? Elective plastic surgery aims to change healthy tissue because a person doesn't like it the way it is naturally. Elective sterilization aims to change healthy tissue because a person doesn't like it the way it is naturally. Seems very similar to me.

 

[mixedmedia]

Really--you don't see the similarity? Elective plastic surgery aims to change healthy tissue because a person doesn't like it the way it is naturally. Elective sterilization aims to change healthy tissue because a person doesn't like it the way it is naturally. Seems very similar to me.

That is a very opportune way of looking at it. Women do not get tubal ligations because they are insecure about the way they look - parting with large sums of money, often on a repeat basis, to obtain an elusive sense of "perfection." They get them because they want a reliable method of birth control that they don't have to remember, fill or pause to insert. It is practicality for those who do not share your beliefs. Of course, you can understand that distinction, right?

 

[Felicity]

That is a very opportune way of looking at it. Women do not get tubal ligations because they are insecure about the way they look - parting with large sums of money, often on a repeat basis, to obtain an elusive sense of "perfection." They get them because they want a reliable method of birth control that they don't have to remember, fill or pause to insert. It is practicality for those who do not share your beliefs. Of course, you can understand that distinction, right?

I can see your distinction--but when you get right down to it--you get a nose job because you don't like your nose--you get a tubal because you don't like your fertility.