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Anyone Else Sick of this Debate?

Lefty

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I'm so sick of hearing about abortion. Am I the only one? People take this debate so seriously that it consumes their lives. Many of my family members will even use abortion as the only method of determining whom they should vote for. My aunt one time listed all these reasons she wanted to vote for John Kerry, but then ended with "...but George Bush is prolife." And the same thing goes for people that vote for politicians just because they are pro-choice. Doesn't everyone see that politicians are just using this issue to get votes? That's really what this is about. I take the stance of no stance. I don't want my vote to be so single-minded.

I guess you can say I'm sick of this debate, because really... what's the debate? There is no convincing anyone that's pro-life that they are wrong, and there is no convincing anyone that is pro-choice they are wrong. You can't convince someone that's already made up their mind.
 

aps

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Lefty said:
I'm so sick of hearing about abortion. Am I the only one? People take this debate so seriously that it consumes their lives. Many of my family members will even use abortion as the only method of determining whom they should vote for. My aunt one time listed all these reasons she wanted to vote for John Kerry, but then ended with "...but George Bush is prolife." And the same thing goes for people that vote for politicians just because they are pro-choice. Doesn't everyone see that politicians are just using this issue to get votes? That's really what this is about. I take the stance of no stance. I don't want my vote to be so single-minded.

I guess you can say I'm sick of this debate, because really... what's the debate? There is no convincing anyone that's pro-life that they are wrong, and there is no convincing anyone that is pro-choice they are wrong. You can't convince someone that's already made up their mind.
*raises hand to show agreement*

I hear you, Lefty. There are some people who will switch to the other side based upon experiences but on the whole, people are not going to change their minds during their lifetime.
 

Felicity

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aps said:
.... people are not going to change their minds during their lifetime.

I did. :2wave:
 

aps

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Felicity said:
I did. :2wave:
It happens! The same thing happened to my sister.

Happy New Year, Felicity. :2dancing:
 

Felicity

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aps said:
It happens! The same thing happened to my sister.
Well...it's not a disease you know...:2razz:

Actual information changed my mind--THINKING about what was "real" versus what is "status quo" or self-serving bias....that's what made me change my mind and decide that the pro-life side is the closest to the objective truth of the matter. (That's not to say there aren't thinkers on the pro-choice side and That's not to say there aren't whack-jobs on my side, too! ;) )

Happy New Year, Felicity. :2dancing:
Hey...Same to you, aps! :cheers:
 

Lefty

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Well actually I think you are proving my point. When people sit down and think "am I pro-choice or pro-life?" and actaully make that decision. There is no converting them. You would be a good example, as it is hardly likely that you will change your mind about this issue. And that's fine, it's good to form your own opinion about something, but it's the way people single-mindedly worship this issue that turns me off.
 

Aurora151989

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:2wave: I'm also sick of it
 

steen

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I am sick of the incessant lies and deliberate misrepresentations and distortions by the prolifers.
 

mixedmedia

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I have changed as well from adamant pro-choice....with no name applied to what I am now. I don't consider myself either pro-life or pro-choice. I believe abortion is wrong and a backwards procedure that in our day and age could be made obsolete - and that it should be abolished - but only upon a revolutionary change in the availability of birth control to all women, including teens. Free and readily available, on demand, without prescription.

Don't know what that makes me.

And yes I am dead tired of the debate. This issue is unresolvable in light of today's realities which is why the debate is so heated, in my opinion. There is very little room for compromise because there is very little creative thinking on both sides of the debate.
 

cnredd

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I don't post in the abortion thread...

Everyone there is a psycho...

I posted something awhile ago and got attacked by both sides...:roll:
 

ngdawg

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Hey, I'm no psycho-I take meds now!:lol:
I'm very sick of it, quite frankly. I stick to my thought that pro-life is a misnomer, that one can be pro-choice and not be for abortions in a personal sense and I try to find back-up for everything that's non-biased. The name-calling, the redundancy and the absolutely mindless posting of things having nothing to do with the subject don't even make for decent reading any more.
How about locking it down for a week? See if the brain power here can be a bit more resourceful and better utilized.
 

Felicity

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Lefty said:
Well actually I think you are proving my point. When people sit down and think "am I pro-choice or pro-life?" and actually make that decision. There is no converting them. You would be a good example, as it is hardly likely that you will change your mind about this issue. And that's fine, it's good to form your own opinion about something, but it's the way people single-mindedly worship this issue that turns me off.
There's nuances that can shift...Specifically--I used to be one that argued the liberty of a woman in a free society could not be infringed upon in any way...the "I wouldn't get an abortion, and I think it's immoral, but I can't tell anyone else what they should do with their own body" position..but then I was convinced that the thing in the womb is a body as well and in an abortion--that is exactly what happens....

The same goes for the capital punishment argument--I used to be CERTAIN that capital punishment was ethical and should even be used more frequently--and I have done a complete reversal in that position.

Change can happen--sometimes is a radical change--but more often it's slight movement in a direction. Either way--I think it's relevant fodder for rational discussion, but I agree the name calling "you're a shithead" attitude is a big turnoff and because it's a matter of life and freedom, people's emotions get the best of them often.


Hey ngdawg....was that too long for ya? Your eyes hurtin'?;)
 

SixStringHero

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This is probably the FIRST and LAST time you will see me post on an Abortion topic.

I'm Pro-Choice and support a woman's right to choose. I am however against Partial Birth Abortion except for very extreme cases where the mother's life is at risk.

I personally stay away from these topics because their are far too many extremists on both sides of the aisle.
 

CoffeeSaint

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I think this is almost the perfect topic for debate. It involves almost all aspects of logical contesting: there are scientific arguments, there are moral arguments, there are legal arguments, there are even some historical arguments. The entire spectrum of possible stances, from one extreme to another, can be found almost in one room full of people, anywhere in the U.S. I think it is exactly issues like this one that need to be debated, more than any other, because it is something that so many people feel so passionately about.
Can it be resolved? Of course it can. People think, and people change their minds. Just because there are some people in each forum, in each conversation, that will not change their minds, doesn't mean there aren't others who will change their minds. And there are some who don't think they change their minds, but they will. Does that mean everyone will one day hold the same opinion? Of course not. But that won't stop me from trying to show everybody else why they're wrong, and I'm right.;)
 

alienken

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SixStringHero said:
This is probably the FIRST and LAST time you will see me post on an Abortion topic.

I'm Pro-Choice and support a woman's right to choose. I am however against Partial Birth Abortion except for very extreme cases where the mother's life is at risk.

I personally stay away from these topics because their are far too many extremists on both sides of the aisle.
Out of all of the "except where the mother's life is at risk" arguments (and I have heard alot) never has anyone stated the actual condition the mother can be in to have to justify killing the baby half way through birth. A regular abortion, maybe.Very few cases if any at all. I have however heard from doctors that say no, there is no reason medically for a partial birth abortion. Is there any common ground between the pro and anti abortion supporters at all ?
 

vergiss

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Invent a machine that can gestate the removed embryo, and everyone will be happy. :mrgreen:
 

Caine

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cnredd said:
I don't post in the abortion thread...

Everyone there is a psycho...

I posted something awhile ago and got attacked by both sides...:roll:
:rofl

Thats funny.
:duel
 

Caine

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Well, I made a proposal once, but a religious fundi wanted to chomp at it with the "Your goin' to hell!" arguments and all that crap.

Another thing that I think would drastically reduce the number of abortions is better access to birth control, better education on the responsibilities of sexual activity and possible pregnancy, AND.. (this is the one people won't like)....

Full legality and better access to the "Morning After Pill". (I heard this is illegal, or illegal in certain areas, maybe Im wrong).

...

BUT THATS KILLING A BABY!

Yeah, yeah, but at least you won't be "chopping its poor little body up into peices and sucking out in a vacuum machine" or "stabing a hole in its head and sucking out the brains" or any of that other stuff that people continue to repeat to try to get to the emotional side of someone else.

Reguardless, I think if the woman is given the opportunity to make the choice early, and she doesn't take it, she shouldn't be allowed to suddenly change her mind and say, "I don't want it anymore"

Sometimes I know women make this decision based on numerous situations that occur during her pregnancy, but I think, as long as they are given the opportunity to make the decision within, lets say, the first trimester, and they don't take it..... Tough $hit, give it away for adoption then.
 

alienken

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galenrox said:
yes, no one likes abortion. We all agree if it could be eliminated it would be best, it's just on the one side people think the way it should be eliminated should be through legislation (which will not solve the problem, because pure economics shows as long as there's a demand there will be a supply), or eliminated through eliminating the need for them.
I would like to see it totally illegal. But since it is very close to a 50-50 split on the support, I would settle for each state to decide.The Feds. make too many laws that affect so many different people.The red states could make illegal and the blue states can make it legal. All according to the people, NOT the judges. I would be for anything that would reduce the number of abortions.
 

Felicity

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alienken said:
I would settle for each state to decide..
I would too.

However--the Pandora's box was opened and if RVW is overturned so that state's can get their rightful legistative powers back in this particular area--I don't see how aguments can be made to "allow" abortion. The "privacy" thing is a major stretch IMO and what other doorway do the pro-choicers have? I guess states would have to define "personhood" in such a way that doesn't contradict the constitution--and even then I think litigation and challenges would occur in enormous quantities from the side that feels the definition doesn't suit their view.
 
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I was once Pro Abortion, As you said personal changes in ones life can change them, that is what happen to me. Emotions are a big part of this debate, and that will never change, because what change my mind was pure emotion. The love for each of my 5 babies as I watched them die, I realized that each one of them could be legally aborted. Then I learned over 4,000 babies are aborted each day. I said to myself my babies were so lucky because they had to feel the love my wife and I had for them. The 4,000 aborted felt no love, Maybe they felt pain.

My confession is, as a young man in the Army and the Navy I slept around alot. Just wanting a few moments of pleasure, never considering what the consequences of my actions might be. I often wonder do I have children growing up in poverty? Have any of my children been aborted? What harm was caused by my actions? I never did anything illegal but none the less for those moments of pleasure, many of them forgotten, could have caused death to one of children, hunger for another, being cold for another, and the same is true for the women I slept with. Oh how I pray that I never caused anything like this. Now I am entering a time in my life where I reflect and ask how can I corect my mistakes, unfortunately I might not be able to. Because like abortion some mistakes can not be corected. So I have dedicated my life trying to stop other from making the same mistakes I made. Oh how I pray for the unborn, Oh how I hope I never was the cause for an abortion. Is the debate worth having you bet your and someone elses life it is.
:memorial_
 

Caine

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galenrox said:
You know something interesting then?
Abortion rates were lowest under Clinton than under either Bush or Reagan.

Just making it illegal won't solve the problem, it's similar to the drug trade that it will just go underground and become less safe for the women having the abortions. As long as there's a demand, there will be a supply.

To solve the problem, you have to solve the problems that lead to abortions, address why women have abortions. The largest percentage of women have abortions because they want to put off child rearing, and so with them adoption reform and working on social stigmas about women who are either pregnant out of wedlock or women putting their children up for abortion would seriously reduce the abortions from this group.
The second largest percentage is from women who can't afford to have the child, so for this, programs against poverty and adoption reform could solve most of these problems.
And so on and so forth, it's not a simple issue, and thus simple solutions (i.e. making it illegal) will under no circumstances solve the problem, but instead it will just make it worse. It's a complex issue, and thus only complex solutions have the capability of solving the problem.
/Sarcasm/
No, I don't care if they are poor, they shouldn't have sex, its that simple, I shouldn't be forced to pay for someone who wants to have sex and sit on thier rear end! Yadda yadda yadda. Screw them, I don't care if they die, they can "bleed out in the streets and die" for all I care
/Sarcasm/
 

alienken

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galenrox said:
You know something interesting then?
Abortion rates were lowest under Clinton than under either Bush or Reagan.

Just making it illegal won't solve the problem, it's similar to the drug trade that it will just go underground and become less safe for the women having the abortions. As long as there's a demand, there will be a supply.
No, if you want to cut down on bad behavior, the best thing you can do is make it harder.I know if Texas made abortion illegal while Lousianna had it legal, young women would be going across the state border for abortions. I think by making it hard to do, less women would do it...If it goes underground it may be less safe for the mother but the mother has the choice of not going through with it. I am more concerned about the unborn baby that deserves a chance at life and has no choice.
 

steen

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alienken said:
No, if you want to cut down on bad behavior, the best thing you can do is make it harder..
Or you could make it less likely to be seen as necessary in the first place (better sex-ed, more contraception, more help to pregnant women), but perhaps that is not punitive and oppressive enough for you? Perhaps that doesn't leave the government enough in control of our private lives for your taste?
 
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One way to reduce the number of abortions, would be to have the male partner pay Prenatal child support all during the pregnancy. Many women are forced to abort simply because of poverty or they can not afford adequate care. Women have a large expense when they are pregnant. Some of these expences are Doctor visits, lab work, vitamins, healthy diet, maternity cloths, expenses in just getting a place ready for a baby. There are many agencies out there that will help, but I feel the male should be made to pay something towards these expenses. If this was the case more males would be more careful. Basically if a women wants to have her baby, the male can say "abort it because I will not be around to help you when your pregnant". I feel this is slavery for women. Many males love abortion because it means no child support. I have notice Unplanned Parenthood and N.O.W. have never lobbied for this legislation. If we hit the male in the pocket, abortions and unwanted pregnancies will decrease.
 
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