Anti-Choicers Say Protests at Tiller's Former Clinic Are Too Disruptve

[sangha]

Nice try Sangha. The post in which I said that, #89, was preceded by me saying "it sounds as if....", so I was making it clear that in that instance I was just theorizing.

This is dishonest. Here is what you really said:

it sounds as if a client visiting PP for a pregnancy test, then a follow up, then a medical exam to see if they are medically ready for an abortion, then an abortion and then a follow up exam, PP will count this as 5 medical services and one abortion.

You have no reason to think that "it sounds as if" PP would count that as 5 medical services and one abortion. For all you know, they count it as only one abortion.

When I asked you to check the numbers yourself, that was in post #88, the one that proves PP's misleading use of statistics.
So go ahead, don't avoid it. Show me how PP's own provided numbers can be interpreted in a different way. Maybe you'll find a way, maybe I'm wrong.

I ask that knowing you will most likely avoid doing so.

This is just as dishonest as every other claim you've made in this thread. Nothing PP has posted is misleading

I'll continue to wait until you post a link showing that PP reports abortions and the related medical care as 5 services plus an abortion

 

[Brooks]

This is dishonest. Here is what you really said:
1. You have no reason to think that "it sounds as if" PP would count that as 5 medical services and one abortion. For all you know, they count it as only one abortion.

2. This is just as dishonest as every other claim you've made in this thread. Nothing PP has posted is misleading

3. I'll continue to wait until you post a link showing that PP reports abortions and the related medical care as 5 services plus an abortion

1. Planned Parenthood, in their own literature, claimed that "In 2011, we provided nearly 11 million medical services for nearly three million people...". This means that they are counting each person more than once during the course of the year and are counting each of their visits in their statistics rather than count each person in their statistics.
As a result, their number of abortions comes out to 3% of total medical services rather than 13% of all clients.
And, as I have already stated, I prefaced the "number of visits" point by saying "it sounds as if". I wasn't claiming to have read it anywhere nor did I claim that it's definitely true. Such statements are openly left there for people to dispute or prove wrong. But I presented it very differently from the way I present actual facts.
I think that was pretty clear.

2. That's just sad, Sangh. You, like many others, are too personally invested in an organization. It shouldn't be this personal to you.

3. Refer to # 1.
But I see what you're doing. You're latching onto something I presented as my own personal supposition and are saying it's probably not true. Guess what, you many be right.
And in the meantime you can avoid the larger issues of post 88. I notice you are avoiding that one altogether, and I expect you will continue to.

 

[Brooks]

I think the problem with a PP discussion is that many of you are too personally invested in them.
I support most of what the Republican Party believes but I also understand and admit that they aren't always right, they can be misleading and some among them are jerks. And I have no problem saying when I think they are wrong.

PP supporters, on the other hand, can't seem to do this.
One can still believe in the goals and actions of an organization, realize that they perform more of a particular service than any other organization and are the best representatives and advocates for something you believe in.

But that doesn't mean you shouldn't admit when they aren't perfect, because they aren't.
I think this is what's wrong with political discussion today - complete stubbornness and the belief that that which you support is a personal reflection on you. Well, IT ISN'T.
They are not an extension of you.
When one is secure in their beliefs and their faith in the organization, it isn't difficult to acknowledge when they are wrong.

Can any supporter even acquiesce to such a minor point such as they can be misleading in their claims? Not even that?

 

[Captain Adverse]

Perfect timing Peter King.

Here's a new bombshell of sorts.

PP's percentages are based on providing 10,864,659 medical services, that's why they claim that their 333,964 abortions account for about 3% of their services.
But LOOK CLOSELY please:

They have this line in another part of their 2011 report:
"In 2011, we provided nearly 11 million medical services for nearly three million people..."

IN OTHER WORDS based on the number of actual individual clients ("nearly 3 million"), about 11% of PP clients had abortions.

11% of PP clients got abortions in 2011.

If there's another way to interpret these numbers please have at it.
Here's is a link to PP's website, the statistical information is on pages 1 & 2.
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/files/PPFA/PP_Services.pdf

Do you understand the difference between the use of the word "services" as the overall set and the use of the word "abortion" as a subset? That different medical support staff do different procedures? That there is also a separate counseling staff? That there are technicians who do the tests on materials provided by the medical staff? Then there are visiting physicians who do abortions as scheduled?

AFFILIATE MEDICAL SERVICES SUMMARY*
STI/STD TESTING AND TREATMENT — 41.0 PERCENT OF SERVICES IN 2011
STI Tests, Women and Men 3,744,949
Genital Warts (HPV) Treatments 49,058
HIV Tests, Women and Men 680,807
Other Treatments 199
4,475,013
CONTRACEPTION — 32.0 PERCENT OF SERVICES IN 2011
Reversible Contraception Clients, Women** 2,006,691
Emergency Contraception Kits 1,425,746
Female sterilization procedures 801
Vasectomy Clients 3,575
3,436,813
CANCER SCREENING AND PREVENTION — 12.0 PERCENT OF SERVICES IN 2011
Pap Tests 585,978
HPV Vaccinations 38,892
Breast Exams/ Breast Care 639,384
Colposcopy Procedures*** 39,763
LOOP/LEEP Procedures*** 2,469
Cryotherapy Procedures*** 1,084
1,307,570
OTHER WOMEN’S HEALTH SERVICES — 11.0 PERCENT OF SERVICES IN 2011
Pregnancy Tests 1,150,589
Prenatal Services 28,674
1,179,263
ABORTION SERVICES — 3.0 PERCENT OF SERVICES IN 2010
Abortion Procedures 333,964
OTHER SERVICES — 1.0 PERCENT OF SERVICES IN 2011
Family Practice Services, Women and Men 55,329
Adoption Referrals to Other Agencies 2,300
Urinary tract infections treatments 47,812
Other Procedures, Women and Men**** 26,595
132,036
TOTAL SERVICES 10,864,659
*Patient Care Provided by Planned Parenthood Affiliate Health Centers in 2011

As you can see there were many services provided to the 3 million people, male and female, who visited Planned Parenthood in 2010. When taken as a whole, 3.07% were "ABORTION SERVICES."

So whats your point?

 

[year2late]

I hate it when people refer to people as either "Pro-Choice" or "Anti-Choice" as it does not in any way give the babies ANY choice.

Call it what it is. Pro-Abortion or Anti-Abortion.

And don't call people "evil" for opposing the murder of babies. Evil is murdering innocent babies.

I hate wen people use the term "pro-life" So many of the people who call themselves prolife have no active concern in assuring living breathing human beings do not die of treatable diseases because of lack of access to health care.

Call it what it is. Pro-fetus.

 

[nota bene]

I am pro-life. To what extent I am is between God and me without any requirement to justify myself to you. But please feel free to share just how active your concern for those with treatable diseases is. Do you volunteer at a hospice? Donate money to SAD disease? Lobby for research funding?

 

[year2late]

I am pro-life. To what extent I am is between God and me without any requirement to justify myself to you. But please feel free to share just how active your concern for those with treatable diseases is. Do you volunteer at a hospice? Donate money to SAD disease? Lobby for research funding?

I actively donate yes - to a variety of causes relating to health care. I care for my mother with multiple serious medical conditions (for >10years) and have a son with special needs so my out of home time is limited. However, recently (the past 5 years) I have advocated for seniors trying to navigate through their insurance and specifically pharmaceuticals. What I went in for was one issue, what I ended up doing more than anything was helping them (and their families) ask the RIGHT questions when they go to the doctor to get better and more cost effective care.

So yes, I think I qualify as walking the walk.

 

[Brooks]

As you can see there were many services provided to the 3 million people, male and female, who visited Planned Parenthood in 2010. When taken as a whole, 3.07% were "ABORTION SERVICES."
So whats your point?

If three million people visited and they performed 333,000 abortions and you say 3% were for abortions you'd better get another calculator.

Your math notwithstanding, thank you for at least looking at the numbers. More than most are willing to do.

 

[Captain Adverse]

If three million people visited and they performed 333,000 abortions and you say 3% were for abortions you'd better get another calculator.

Your math notwithstanding, thank you for at least looking at the numbers. More than most are willing to do.

Please read for comprehension. The figure is 3% of ALL SERVICES. Look at the data I posted from your own citation. 333,000 abortions were about 3% of ALL SERVICES.

Geez.

 

[nota bene]

I actively donate yes - to a variety of causes relating to health care. I care for my mother with multiple serious medical conditions (for >10years) and have a son with special needs so my out of home time is limited. However, recently (the past 5 years) I have advocated for seniors trying to navigate through their insurance and specifically pharmaceuticals. What I went in for was one issue, what I ended up doing more than anything was helping them (and their families) ask the RIGHT questions when they go to the doctor to get better and more cost effective care.

So yes, I think I qualify as walking the walk.

And yet you would dismiss others who are too and dismiss them as being merely "pro-fetus." Think about it as you claim to "walk the talk" and maybe stop on your path to extract the timber from your own eye.

 

[JayDubya]

Premeditated Homicidehood does not operate this particular abortion mill.

They do not relate to the topic; but yes, they are entirely defined by being the leading provider of contract killing services in this country - that's what happens when you're the market leader in something, even something as despicable as killing the innocent for money.

 

[Scrabaholic]

I hate it when people refer to people as either "Pro-Choice" or "Anti-Choice" as it does not in any way give the babies ANY choice.

Call it what it is. Pro-Abortion or Anti-Abortion.

When your side stops calling us pro-abortion, I might stop calling y'all anti-choice.

And don't call people "evil" for opposing the murder of babies. Evil is murdering innocent babies.

I very much oppose murdering babies. I don't think I know anyone who doesn't.

 

[Scrabaholic]

And yet you would dismiss others who are too and dismiss them as being merely "pro-fetus." Think about it as you claim to "walk the talk" and maybe stop on your path to extract the timber from your own eye.

Perhaps you should pay attention to the posts preceding that one -then you'd realise that it was a counter post to someone saying that we shouldn't be called pro-choice. smh

 

[sangha]

1. Planned Parenthood, in their own literature, claimed that "In 2011, we provided nearly 11 million medical services for nearly three million people...". This means that they are counting each person more than once during the course of the year and are counting each of their visits in their statistics rather than count each person in their statistics.
As a result, their number of abortions comes out to 3% of total medical services rather than 13% of all clients.

None of which indicates that an abortion counts as six medical services. You just made that up. Now, you're trying to hide your dishonesty with more dishonest claims.

And, as I have already stated, I prefaced the "number of visits" point by saying "it sounds as if". I wasn't claiming to have read it anywhere nor did I claim that it's definitely true. Such statements are openly left there for people to dispute or prove wrong. But I presented it very differently from the way I present actual facts.
I think that was pretty clear.

Umm, no. It is dishonest to make claims, refuse to back them up, and then claim that others have a burden to prove them wrong.

 

[sangha]

If three million people visited and they performed 333,000 abortions and you say 3% were for abortions you'd better get another calculator.

Your math notwithstanding, thank you for at least looking at the numbers. More than most are willing to do.

There is no reasonable doubt that only 3% of the services they provide are abortions. That you continue to deny that which has been proven only serves to prove the dishonesty of your claims.

There's nothing sadder than seeing the Moral Fascists who want to ban abortion try to argue the moral superiority of their position by telling lies.

 

[year2late]

And yet you would dismiss others who are too and dismiss them as being merely "pro-fetus." Think about it as you claim to "walk the talk" and maybe stop on your path to extract the timber from your own eye.

Just dismissing as much as prochoicers are dismissmed (see post I quoted)

 

[year2late]

There is no reasonable doubt that only 3% of the services they provide are abortions. That you continue to deny that which has been proven only serves to prove the dishonesty of your claims.

There's nothing sadder than seeing the Moral Fascists who want to ban abortion try to argue the moral superiority of their position by telling lies.

Even Senator Jon Kyl who uttered all those false stats about Planned Parenthood had to take back his words when shown the real stats.

 

[sangha]

Even Senator Jon Kyl who uttered all those false stats about Planned Parenthood had to take back his words when shown the real stats.

True, but that doesn't stop Brooks from claiming that Kyl was right.

 

[year2late]

When your side stops calling us pro-abortion, I might stop calling y'all anti-choice.





I very much oppose murdering babies. I don't think I know anyone who doesn't.

YOu forgot about "pro-fetus"

 

[Brooks]

Please read for comprehension. The figure is 3% of ALL SERVICES. Look at the data I posted from your own citation. 333,000 abortions were about 3% of ALL SERVICES.Geez.

Missed that. So you're using the PP "services" numbers rather than clients. Ok.
I think number of clients gives a better picture of what they do, and that's the way PP will never present it.

 

[Captain Adverse]

Missed that. So you're using the PP "services" numbers rather than clients. Ok.
I think number of clients gives a better picture of what they do, and that's the way PP will never present it.

Well that's a different issue. Now that you understand the difference, proceed with your argument.

 

[Brooks]

]Brooks: 1. Planned Parenthood, in their own literature, claimed that "In 2011, we provided nearly 11 million medical services for nearly three million people...". This means that they are counting each person more than once during the course of the year and are counting each of their visits in their statistics rather than count each person in their statistics.
As a result, their number of abortions comes out to 3% of total medical services rather than 13% of all clients.[/COLOR]Sangha: None of which indicates that an abortion counts as six medical services. You just made that up. Now, you're trying to hide your dishonesty with more dishonest claims.

2. Umm, no. It is dishonest to make claims, refuse to back them up, and then claim that others have a burden to prove them wrong.

1. You aren't answering what has been asked here. This question, from an entirely different post has facts you refuse to acknowledge or dispute.
The other statement to which you refer was from a different post and I made it clear that I was speculating on something when I said it.
You keep bringing it up in order to avoid facing the hard numbers. Continue to avoid it, you can't dispute it anyway.
But a very weak tactic.

2. It's not dishonest if the original statement never claimed to be factual. It included language making it clear it was speculation.
But keep avoiding the real point.

 

[Brooks]

Well that's a different issue. Now that you understand the difference, proceed with your argument.

Have no fear, I understood it all along.
It's not actually an argument (another poster is making it into one, but it isn't).

My original point alluded to the fact that statistics can be truthfully used by two sides and give two completely different impressions.
It's an important point to make because most people don't look closely. The fact that there were so many "how can this be" reactions bears this out.

Both of these are true:
- 3% of all PP services are abortions
and
- 13% of all PP clients get abortions.

Before this discussion (and apparently during it) most people would not have been able to figure that out. I think it's important, even interesting, not just for the abortion issue, but in general. Don't you.

 

[Scrabaholic]

13% of all PP clients get abortions.

Which means that 87% - the vast majority - of all PP clients do not get abortions.

 

[Brooks]

Which means that 87% - the vast majority - of all PP clients do not get abortions.

Yeah, but for whatever reason PP won't say it that way.