Anti-Choicers Say Protests at Tiller's Former Clinic Are Too Disruptve

[year2late]

Which means that 87% - the vast majority - of all PP clients do not get abortions.

Aside from that, they are only accounting for actual medical type services. Can you imagine going into a doctor's office - asking for sliding scale - then have them take a substantial amount of time helping you access outside services (that you can afford) and help with obtaining insurance coverage????

Hell, they do not even charge for things HIV counseling - so it wouldn't even be counted in services rendered - it would just be part of the dirt cheap HIV test.

 

[JayDubya]

a) This thread is not about Planned Parenthood, it is about a different, independent abortion mill.

b) Planned Parenthood is entirely defined by (and tainted by) its being the market leader in contract killing services, as well as it's political and legal advocacy for such.

 

[Brooks]

Aside from that, they are only accounting for actual medical type services. Can you imagine going into a doctor's office - asking for sliding scale - then have them take a substantial amount of time helping you access outside services (that you can afford) and help with obtaining insurance coverage????

Hell, they do not even charge for things HIV counseling - so it wouldn't even be counted in services rendered - it would just be part of the dirt cheap HIV test.

That's why it's clearer to use number-of-clients statistic, there's no room for confusion.

 

[year2late]

That's why it's clearer to use number-of-clients statistic, there's no room for confusion.

Well yeah, since Planned Parenthood offers services that are not even charged for - why include those valuable services in pesky statistics. It is not like HIV counceling and helping people access healthcare and services not offered by PP is valuable or anything.:shock:

 

[sangha]

Missed that. So you're using the PP "services" numbers rather than clients. Ok.
I think number of clients gives a better picture of what they do, and that's the way PP will never present it.

Sen Kyle disagrees. For some reason, that Moral Fascist chose to use the services numbers and then lied about it to boot

And now you're defending what even Kyle has retracted.

 

[sangha]

1. You aren't answering what has been asked here. This question, from an entirely different post has facts you refuse to acknowledge or dispute.
The other statement to which you refer was from a different post and I made it clear that I was speculating on something when I said it.
You keep bringing it up in order to avoid facing the hard numbers. Continue to avoid it, you can't dispute it anyway.
But a very weak tactic.

2. It's not dishonest if the original statement never claimed to be factual. It included language making it clear it was speculation.
But keep avoiding the real point.

The point is you claimed that an abortion requires 6 medical services and that's how PP reports abortions.

I'm still waiting for you to post something which supports your dishonest claim

 

[Brooks]

Well yeah, since Planned Parenthood offers services that are not even charged for - why include those valuable services in pesky statistics. It is not like HIV counceling and helping people access healthcare and services not offered by PP is valuable or anything.:shock:

You said something similar in this post:
"Aside from that, they are only accounting for actual medical type services. Can you imagine going into a doctor's office - asking for sliding scale - then have them take a substantial amount of time helping you access outside services (that you can afford) and help with obtaining insurance coverage????

Hell, they do not even charge for things HIV counseling - so it wouldn't even be counted in services rendered - it would just be part of the dirt cheap HIV test."
But we're not talking about money or charging or freebies here. We were talking about what percentage of clients get abortions.
You said that 13% is high because it only includes medical services and doesn't take into account how many come in for the above listed services.

However, on page 2 of this link, PP lists all the services they perform. Their total served number is about 11 million, which on another page they eventually admit "we provided nearly 11 million medical services for nearly three million people".

But here's the thing I think disagrees with your above claim of the differentiation between "medical services" and all services: according to page 2 of the link, the 11 million, which is really 3 million, INCLUDES the services you list above.

So the 13% is based on everything they do.

I readily admit I could be wrong because they are smokey with their numbers. If you look at their page and see it differently let me know.

Here's the link:

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/files/PPFA/PP_Services.pdf

 

[Brooks]

Sen Kyle disagrees. For some reason, that Moral Fascist chose to use the services numbers and then lied about it to boot
And now you're defending what even Kyle has retracted.

My numbers are from the Planned Parenthood website.
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/files/PPFA/PP_Services.pdf

 

[Brooks]

The point is you claimed that an abortion requires 6 medical services and that's how PP reports abortions.
I'm still waiting for you to post something which supports your dishonest claim

Continue to obsess on the issue I explained and avoid the one you choose to. You're becoming a bore.

I notice I'm one of the few people who responds to your posts.

Probably because I'm new.

 

[AlabamaPaul]

Continue to obsess on the issue I explained and avoid the one you choose to. You're becoming a bore.

I notice I'm one of the few people who responds to your posts.

Probably because I'm new.

You'll learn...

 

[sangha]

My numbers are from the Planned Parenthood website.
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/files/PPFA/PP_Services.pdf

Still can't make an honest post, I see

Those are PP's #'s, not yours

And we were talking about the #'s that Kyle dishonestly claimed.

*YOUR* #'s were the dishonest 6 medical services you claimed make up an abortion

 

[sangha]

Continue to obsess on the issue I explained and avoid the one you choose to. You're becoming a bore.

I notice I'm one of the few people who responds to your posts.

Probably because I'm new.

Continue to run away from the dishonest claim you made and pretend you've been saying the same thing since you started posting.

Don't think I'm the only one who noticed

 

[Brooks]

Still can't make an honest post, I see

Those are PP's #'s, not yours

And we were talking about the #'s that Kyle dishonestly claimed.

*YOUR* #'s were the dishonest 6 medical services you claimed make up an abortion

yawn....

 

[sangha]

yawn....

AT least you're no longer claiming that Kyle was not dishonest

That's progress, I guess

 

[Brooks]

AT least you're no longer claiming that Kyle was not dishonest
That's progress, I guess

Ahh, well played mon ami, so double negatives it is.

I see you aren't continuing to avoid the numbers and facts from which you are not running. Touche'.


PS - Your post isn't salient enough. Normally, your extremely appropriate use of the word fascist makes everything so much clearer.

 

[Brooks]

Sen Kyle disagrees. For some reason, that Moral Fascist chose to use the services numbers and then lied about it to boot

And now you're defending what even Kyle has retracted.

Read post 132, and possibly even grow a pair and address it.

 

[minnie616]

...

Both of these are true:
- 3% of all PP services are abortions
and
- 13% of all PP clients get abortions.

Before this discussion (and apparently during it) most people would not have been able to figure that out. I think it's important, even interesting, not just for the abortion issue, but in general. Don't you.

I already knew that about 12 or 13 percent of the PP clients get abortions.
No I don't think it is important or even interesting.

Since hospitals perform less than 4 percent of all abortions it would not be unusual for for a woman to seek a legal abortion at PP.

 

[year2late]

I already knew that about 12 or 13 percent of the PP clients get abortions.
No I don't think it is important or even interesting.

Since hospitals perform less than 4 percent of all abortions it would not be unusual for for a woman to seek a legal abortion at PP.

It is also not surprising since someone who is already financially unable to support a family or a larger family would chose someplace with a sliding scale service.

Hospital abortions are very expensive.

When I was in nursing school (decades back). Many abortions were performed in hospital - that is where the women with resources went. Many of the times on surgical schedules they were not listed as abortions. They were listed as "diagnostic d and c". Meaning scrape the uterus, make sure there is no disease. Hell, I would bet since the doctors were reclassifying their abortions as D and C to detect disease that these women were even having their abortions covered by insurance. I came to find out that this was a very common practice within hospitals at the time. Women who had personal resources could get away with having abortions and not have the stigma of having an abortion while poor women went to places like Planned Parenthood. .

 

[Brooks]

I already knew that about 12 or 13 percent of the PP clients get abortions.
No I don't think it is important or even interesting.

No, no.... what I found important and interesting is that those two statistics can coexist and both be true and prior to this thread most people would have thought it impossible.
I said it's important not only with the abortion issue but in general.

People should know that they can be, AND ARE, easily manipulated by numbers and the agenda of those feeding them to us.
I take back interesting. I think it's fascinating.

 

[Removable Mind]

No, no.... what I found important and interesting is that those two statistics can coexist and both be true and prior to this thread most people would have thought it impossible.
I said it's important not only with the abortion issue but in general.

People should know that they can be, AND ARE, easily manipulated by numbers and the agenda of those feeding them to us.
I take back interesting. I think it's fascinating.

While statistics are fascinating to the layperson...they might better serve those who they are most affected by them.

Personally, all of the percentages and numbers extrapolated for the purpose of making a point. Well, they aren't at all important to me because the only real issue is whether or not women are, without interference by government, able to exercise their rights to manage their own health, bodies, and reproductive roles as they deem important base on individual beliefs.

I do understand that a major rub comes in by those who disagree with public funds being used to assist women who need help with medical issues that include, but isn't limited to birth control, pap smears, etc.

So...PP is an organization that obtains funds from the government to provide those services.

Now...the main disagreement with PP's business by many is that in addition with all of the health and birth control services they provide to both women and men...they also provide abortions.

I realize that you are anti-abortion. And PP isn't a good place in your eyes for no other reason than they provide abortions.

Beyond you being anti-abortion...I'm not really sure where you stand. By that I mean...have you, or would you, support a constitutional amendment that defines personhood, which includes a zygote, embryo, and fetus?

 

[Brooks]

While statistics are fascinating to the layperson...they might better serve those who they are most affected by them.
Personally, all of the percentages and numbers extrapolated for the purpose of making a point. Well, they aren't at all important to me because the only real issue is whether or not women are, without interference by government, able to exercise their rights to manage their own health, bodies, and reproductive roles as they deem important base on individual beliefs.
I do understand that a major rub comes in by those who disagree with public funds being used to assist women who need help with medical issues that include, but isn't limited to birth control, pap smears, etc.
So...PP is an organization that obtains funds from the government to provide those services.
Now...the main disagreement with PP's business by many is that in addition with all of the health and birth control services they provide to both women and men...they also provide abortions.
I realize that you are anti-abortion. And PP isn't a good place in your eyes for no other reason than they provide abortions.

Beyond you being anti-abortion...I'm not really sure where you stand. By that I mean...have you, or would you, support a constitutional amendment that defines personhood, which includes a zygote, embryo, and fetus?

If you read what I've written on this thread it's almost impossible to tell where I stand on abortion.
I'm for gay marriage but don't believe it's a right.
Even if I were pro-choice I would still have a problem with the way PP manipulates the numbers and in either case I think it's really interesting that it's so easy to do.
The reaction to the numbers by many PP supporters on this thread was disbelief, some called me a liar, etc...
Why? Saying the numbers are misleading is not the same as saying you're anti-abortion.

The problem with discourse over the last several years is that people are all-in on one side or the other. And once their side has been chosen they never again will acquiesce to any criticism and will be blind to any negative behavior.

I'm glad the numbers aren't important to you. You're unique here in many ways.
But look back on this thread or any other abortion thread and see how personally offended people are by criticism of, not their abortion opinion, but of an organization. It's, in a way, sad.

 

[minnie616]

...
The reaction to the numbers by many PP supporters on this thread was disbelief, some called me a liar, etc...
Why? Saying the numbers are misleading is not the same as saying you're anti-abortion.

.

The reaction was to your 37 percent of revenue at planned parenthood came from abortions.
Those figures were misleading.

I did not see anyone call you lier about about your 13 percent although I think the percentage was really closer to 12 percent I did not arugue your point.

In fact since only about 4 percent of all abortions are performed in hospitals and the fact has gotten around that there are many Christian run crisis centers who have misleading advertising and can't be trusted for those seeking abortions it is a wonder to me that the percentage of women who seek abortions at Planned Parenthood is not higher.

 

[year2late]

The reaction was to your 37 percent of revenue at planned parenthood came from abortions.
Those figures were misleading.

I did not see anyone call you lier about about your 13 percent although I think the percentage was really closer to 12 percent I did not arugue your point.

In fact since only about 4 percent of all abortions are performed in hospitals and the fact has gotten around that there are many Christian run crisis centers who have misleading advertising and can't be trusted for those seeking abortions it is a wonder to me that the percentage of women who seek abortions at Planned Parenthood is not higher.

I think the money issue regarding abortions is very misleading. So many of their OTHER services are at a drastically reduced price on sliding scale - and abortion tends to be paid for ($300-950 according to their site) .

Realistically, it looks like a major reason for the increased revenue is that there is actual consistent monetary reimbursement. It is rather unfair to make like abortions are some huge money maker when the reality is that the amount of money actually barely covers (if it even covers) the cost of the procedure. It is also unfair to indicate that it is some huge part of the revenue when it is because they practically give away many other procedures - if the individual is not Medicaid (or otherwise insured) their cost of service may be free or incredibly generous sliding scale.

I

 

[sangha]

the way PP manipulates the numbers and in either case I think it's really interesting that it's so easy to do.
The reaction to the numbers by many PP supporters on this thread was disbelief, some called me a liar, etc...
Why? Saying the numbers are misleading is not the same as saying you're anti-abortion.

PP does not manipulate any #'s nor are any of PP's #'s misleading. This claim of yours is dishonest

And no one claimed you were a liar for stating any of PP's #'s. You lied when you defending Sen Kyle's claim about PP, a claim which even Kyle had to retract. Your claims about why you were accused of posting lies is one of several lies you have posted in this thread.

 

[JayDubya]

PP does not manipulate any #'s nor are any of PP's #'s misleading.

Now that is some hilarious **** right rhere.

Do you actually work for their PR department or do you blow smoke up others' asses for free?