And So It Begins... [W:301]

[VanceMack]

"no law respecting an establishment of religion". The government cannot be shown to be supporting religious beliefs in this way.

According to the article and position paper filed, this isnt about the state sanctioning a religion. This is about volunteers meeting voluntarily with adolescent sex offenders that are specifically seeking spiritual counseling.

 

[calamity]

No...its not. What you are throwing out is pure anti-religious hatred. It has nothing to do with the thread. But then...it never did, did it?

Sure it does. The state cannot condone someone saying, "Jesus saves!" while condemning them for saying, "But not if you butt bugger each other." There is no difference between the two statements when it comes to spreading hate and unadulterated bull****.

 

[VanceMack]

This is more bizarre mental hoop jumping. There is no suppressing or controlling religion. People can practice their religion however and where ever they choose... as long as it does NOT imply government sanctioning. That violates the First Amendment.

I really dont understand the tack you are taking with this case. This is NOT a case of the state hiring or bringing in pastors to tell people that they are wicked evil and wrong and must convert or go to hell. This is a case where adolescent sex offenders, many (according to the article and supporting links) who were themselves molested, feel guilt and shame over their actions and the conflict with their beliefs. If a catholic, or a buddhist, or a Jehovah's Witness, or a Jew walks into ANY counseling office seeking counseling, the counselor must be able to respect their belief system and work within their belief system. Ignoring it because someone else doesnt like it or agree with their belief system does not serve the client. Its no different than if an asian woman heavily impacted by her ethnic and cultural norms, presented for counseling. The therapist MUST be able to approach the client from within THEIR belief system (even if the therapist doesnt necessarily agree with their belief system) for the therapy to be effective.

This situation involves inmates SEEKING spiritual counseling. The volunteer pastor in question has been providing this service for 13 years with no complaints. The changes are not being directed because inmates are unhappy or complaining, but rather because some law maker that has likely never set foot in an adolescent facility is forcing an agenda without consideration to the needs of the population being served.

Pretty much all the people in this thread speaking in favor of this ban are doing so from a personal perspective without regard to what is actually happening. You have people saying "Good...cuz I ****in hate religion." You have people saying "Well...the Russians at one time banned all...." dood...WTF does that have to do with this? You got one guy saying "Well...I guess you would be OK with the state bringing in Muslims...right?" as if THAT is somehow relevant. Yet another claiming "well...by golly the state should be banning them because the inmates are adolescents...."...cuz...after all...adolescents dont need counseling...even spiritual counseling...congruent with their belief systems. You have people claiming "The state should not be providing a captive audience for preachers to proselytize and promote their message of hatred and bigotry" whihc of course is NOT WHAT IS HAPPENING.

Lots of people just ultimately really happy the state is banning volunteers from working directly with inmates requesting their assistance. SO...people that have been volunteering their time and assistance for 13 years without incident are now banned (by state imposed violations of the free practice of their faith) by lawmakers that have no interactions with the inmates...an occasion celebrated by people who similarly have zero interaction with inmates. Because...you know...they 'care' so much about them.

 

[VanceMack]

Sure it does. The state cannot condone someone saying, "Jesus saves!" while condemning them for saying, "But not if you butt bugger each other." There is no difference between the two statements when it comes to spreading hate and unadulterated bull****.

You have already admitted. You hate all religion and think ANY spiritual counseling is 1-ridiculous and 2-corrupt. You arent commenting on the situation or the thread...you are merely venting your own hatred of religion in general. And while you have te absolute right to feel the way you do and express your hatred...it doesnt make it in any way relevant to this particular case-even if at the end of the day your argument supports the volunteer ministers.

 

[rhinefire]

I read the graves of ten zillion homosexuals were uncovered yesterday under an old abandoned church in Hootersville.

 

[blackjack50]

I do love how people will overdramaticize things like this. This is not about any "Christian purge", a concept that is absurd and is only being pushed by those who are whining that that they lost the SCOTUS SSM battle. These ministers were volunteering in a GOVERNMENT FACILITY. Because it is a GOVERNMENT FACILITY, they cannot use their religious bias in dealing with the youths there. They are free to tell any youths in their churches or ministries that homosexuality is a sin, but NOT in a GOVERNMENT FACILITY. Doing so would be discriminatory, telling youths that their sexual orientation is "bad" in and of itself, which is entirely inaccurate.

So religion is not allowed in a government facility? Or sharing religion is not allowed?

 

[calamity]

You have already admitted. You hate all religion and think ANY spiritual counseling is 1-ridiculous and 2-corrupt. You arent commenting on the situation or the thread...you are merely venting your own hatred of religion in general. And while you have te absolute right to feel the way you do and express your hatred...it doesnt make it in any way relevant to this particular case-even if at the end of the day your argument supports the volunteer ministers.

You're missing the point. Let me narrow it down to the basics. Why is it OK to preach that those who do not accept Jesus will go to hell but not OK to tell those who have gay buttsex that they will?

 

[VanceMack]

You're missing the point. Let me narrow it down to the basics. Why is it OK to preach that those who do not accept Jesus will go to hell but not OK to tell those who have gay buttsex that they will?

Let me respond with the facts...neither of those things are happening so your entire position on this matter is irrelevant to the OP and merely more of your hatred of religion and your anti-religion bias.

 

[RogueWarrior]

So religion is not allowed in a government facility? Or sharing religion is not allowed?

SIGH.

The government cannot allow the pushing/distribution of an religious/theistic agenda in its name.
It is right there in the 1st Amendment.

Does counseling have to be religious/theistic to be effective or can people be found with enough empathy to do the job?

 

[calamity]

Let me respond with the facts...1. neither of those things are happening 2. so your entire position on this matter is irrelevant to the OP and merely more of your hatred of religion and your anti-religion bias.

1. Sure it is

2. No it's not.

 

[VanceMack]

1. Sure it is

2. No it's not.

Of course it is. Transparently so. Your position is no different than Chromium's and based solely on your hatred of religion.

 

[calamity]

Of course it is. Transparently so. Your position is no different than Chromium's and based solely on your hatred of religion.

Chrom is more concerned with the specifics of what is being banned. I am saying that it matters very little what is actually said since all of it is bull**** anyway.

 

[KevinKohler]

Prison Ministry has been around far longer than the movement to legislate homosexual acceptance.

Don't be ridiculous.

Really? Christian prison ministers predate the Greek empire?

 

[chromium]

My problem with it is I honestly do not see how the state can condone one aspect of spreading around pure bull**** (Jesus saves!) while condemning another (but not if you butt bugger each other). To anyone not brainwashed in this religion crap, there is no difference in saying this person is better than that one in the eyes of "god" because he accepts Jesus and thus gets to go to heaven, and saying that this person is evil because he practices homosexual sex. Both are equally hateful to those who are on the outside, be they Jesus non-believers or homosexuals, if you look at it honestly.

why wouldn't i look at it honestly when i'm atheist? But what you're saying is more along the lines of what the OP and goshin are afraid of

i would assume some of the kids want a preacher who tells them jesus saves and had preachers like that before being incarcerated, whereas they did not want to hear the anti gay sermons, or certainly the gay kids didn't. The one thing all christians agree on is "jesus saves", like it or not. An atheist has no reason to go to such sermons, regardless or the particular message.

is preaching like that going to perpetuate hatred of atheists? Yes, quite possibly, but i don't have a reasonable solution to that.

 

[chromium]

You're missing the point. Let me narrow it down to the basics. Why is it OK to preach that those who do not accept Jesus will go to hell but not OK to tell those who have gay buttsex that they will?

atheists don't even believe in a hell, so i don't know what there is to take offense to...the impact on a gay kid who was brought up religious is quite different

 

[blackjack50]

SIGH.

The government cannot allow the pushing/distribution of an religious/theistic agenda in its name.
It is right there in the 1st Amendment.

Does counseling have to be religious/theistic to be effective or can people be found with enough empathy to do the job?

Then it has to stop the pushing of non belief too.

And does it matter if it is religious/theistic? Or not? Shouldn't it just be effective?

 

[chromium]

One thing that is bizarre these days is that folks don't understand the concept that morality is a personal belief system that is not universal, but subjective. We see many folks who don't understand this concept and try to use their own subjective morality as a way to try to control others in an authoritarian way. Fortunately, as time goes on, these authoritarians are usually prevented from using their subjectivity to force others to act as they want others to act, allowing freedom to remain in effect.

you act like you don't understand, but that is most of human history. Almost all cultures have attempted to use religion as a control apparatus. Of course, i tend to it excuse more back when they didn't know any better than to think the crops would go to ruin or their village would be destroyed if they did not brutally enforce those beliefs

in the 21st century though, it's only cowards who attempt to do so

 

[VanceMack]

Chrom is more concerned with the specifics of what is being banned. I am saying that it matters very little what is actually said since all of it is bull**** anyway.

No...you aren't. You are both saying "I hate religion!" Period.

 

[RogueWarrior]

Then it has to stop the pushing of non belief too.

And does it matter if it is religious/theistic? Or not? Shouldn't it just be effective?

Pray tell (pun intended) how it is pushing non-belief. It is taking a neutral position as it should.
The government is not saying a deity doesn't exist.

Effective? yes, it should be effective, just not in a religious/theistic context. If being effective is your only criteria, we could start using psychotropic drugs, aversion therapy, and hypnosis.

The cost of the government not being neutral was very well understood by the FF. This is why religion/theism, except for the neutrality expressed in the 1st, does not appear anywhere in the Constitution.

 

[ChezC3]

Really? Christian prison ministers predate the Greek empire?

Context Kev, CONTEXT.

 

[KevinKohler]

Context Kev, CONTEXT.

The only context I need is what you said, as it applies to this article. You think that homosexuals "coming out" is something new, something recent, something big only in the last 30 years? You're wrong. This is a movement that has been festering and building for centuries.

While you're concerned about one minister who is butthurt because he now has to find a new sopa box to climb onto, because the one titled US Gov doesn't allow him to discriminate, and not discriminating is something he REFUSES to do, the rest of us our concerned about the much farther reaching repercusions of something as simple as basic legal equality.

You, and people like you, are on the dead wrong side of history, and the sad part is, you don't see it, and you won't see it, till your grandkids are embarrassed by you, and whisper about what crazy rude things you are going to say or do next. And hell, maybe even then you won't see it. A fervent belief in something poisonous has so completely clouded your objective judgement that you simply can't see.

 

[William Rea]

you are saying Webster is wrong where is your authority to say that the number 1 dictionary in the world is wrong?
LOL wiki? what a joke. you proved you have no idea what you are talking about.

they don't even allow wiki to be used for college term papers what makes you think it flys here?
Webster> wiki.

So you have nothing then? Though not.

 

[ChezC3]

The only context I need is what you said, as it applies to this article. You think that homosexuals "coming out" is something new, something recent, something big only in the last 30 years? You're wrong. This is a movement that has been festering and building for centuries.

Nothing in my post suggests this. This is a Strawman.

While you're concerned about one minister who is butthurt because he now has to find a new sopa box to climb onto, because the one titled US Gov doesn't allow him to discriminate, and not discriminating is something he REFUSES to do, the rest of us our concerned about the much farther reaching repercusions of something as simple as basic legal equality.

Interesting choice of words, butthurt... No, this isn't a soapbox. There is no discrimination. No one is being denied anything but the chaplain. So, in that, yes there is discrimination. If you were so concerned for basic legal equality, whatever the **** that is, than you wouldn't be applauding and "pushing" for what it is you're "pushing".

You, and people like you, are on the dead wrong side of history, and the sad part is, you don't see it, and you won't see it, till your grandkids are embarrassed by you, and whisper about what crazy rude things you are going to say or do next. And hell, maybe even then you won't see it. A fervent belief in something poisonous has so completely clouded your objective judgement that you simply can't see.

Oh my stars and garters...."You and people like you", didn't you want to say "You people..." :lamo

This last little part of the post is indicative to who the true people are who are promoting hate. The same one's promoting death. It ain't the Christians, that's for sure.

I'll pray for your conversion. Tell ya what, pray it with me...

Spirit of our God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Most Holy Trinity, descend upon me. Please purify me, mold me, fill me with yourself, and use me. Banish all the forces of evil from me; destroy them, vanquish them so that I can be healthy and do good deeds.
Banish from me all spells, witchcraft, black magic, demonic assignments, malefice, maledictions and the evil eye; diabolic infestations, oppressions, possessions; all that is evil and sinful; jealousy, treachery, envy; all physical, psychological, moral, spiritual and diabolical ailments; as well as all enticing spirits, deaf, dumb, blind, mute and sleeping spirits, new-age spirits, occult spirits, religious spirits, antichrist spirits, and any other spirits of death and darkness.

I command and bid all the powers who molest me—by the power of God Almighty, in the name of Jesus Christ our Savior—to leave me forever, and to be consigned into the everlasting lake of fire, that they may never again touch me or any other creature in the entire world. Amen.

There ya go pal, bookmark this or c&p and put it somewhere safe. You can recite this prayer as often as you like.

God bless.

 

[KevinKohler]

Nothing in my post suggests this. This is a Strawman.

In post 10, you said this...

"Prison Ministry has been around far longer than the movement to legislate homosexual acceptance.

Don't be ridiculous. "

Which I called you on, which you asked for context, which I provided you, which you are now trying to claim is a strawman. Yet, very clearly, in post number 10, as quoted to you here, you imply that this is a new struggle, not even dating before the use of prison ministers.

Interesting choice of words, butthurt... No, this isn't a soapbox. There is no discrimination.

Of course there is. The message to homosexuals is clearly different than the message to all the other inmates. The primary issue at hand is, the messenger is ASSuming that one's sexual preference is a simple choice. Quite the ASSumption to make, one that the state is no longer interested in sanctioning.

No one is being denied anything but the chaplain.

That is correct, NOW. NOW, yes, the chaplain is being denied their god given chance to religiously discriminate against those that don't ardently adhere to their midieval beliefs.

So, in that, yes there is discrimination.

Yes. The state actively discriminates against those who discriminate, and who refuse to STOP doing so.

If you were so concerned for basic legal equality, whatever the **** that is, than you wouldn't be applauding and "pushing" for what it is you're "pushing".

I am pushing for a state that does not endorse religious beliefs, and provide for the pushing of those beliefs upon those directly under their thumb, like prison inmates and students, etc. And if you don't understand what legal equality is, let me explain. It is the idea that under the LAW, all are equal. Justice is blind, and all that jazz. What is a prison, Chez? Is that not a big ol piece of law enforcement? All who act within those walls should treat others within them not as blacks, whites, christian, muslim, gay, strait, etc.

Oh my stars and garters...."You and people like you", didn't you want to say "You people..." :lamo

Why would I want to say "You people"? I'm not understanding this one...

This last little part of the post is indicative to who the true people are who are promoting hate.

If that is the case, then showing where I have done so should be no trouble for you, yes? Is honesty hate, if you don't like the message? Sorry, but that's the way it is, partner. You're on the wrong side of history. For the record, I don't blame you.

The same one's promoting death. It ain't the Christians, that's for sure.

Really. So, you're against the death penalty, along with the majority of the majority christian GOP? You should probably start a thread with that message, spread the word a bit...because I don't think the GOP realizes, lol.

I'll pray for your conversion. Tell ya what, pray it with me...

I have already converted, but I thank you for your concern.

Spirit of our God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, Most Holy Trinity, descend upon me. Please purify me, mold me, fill me with yourself, and use me. Banish all the forces of evil from me; destroy them, vanquish them so that I can be healthy and do good deeds.
Banish from me all spells, witchcraft, black magic, demonic assignments, malefice, maledictions and the evil eye; diabolic infestations, oppressions, possessions; all that is evil and sinful; jealousy, treachery, envy; all physical, psychological, moral, spiritual and diabolical ailments; as well as all enticing spirits, deaf, dumb, blind, mute and sleeping spirits, new-age spirits, occult spirits, religious spirits, antichrist spirits, and any other spirits of death and darkness.

I command and bid all the powers who molest me—by the power of God Almighty, in the name of Jesus Christ our Savior—to leave me forever, and to be consigned into the everlasting lake of fire, that they may never again touch me or any other creature in the entire world. Amen.

Southern Baptist, eh?

There ya go pal, bookmark this or c&p and put it somewhere safe. You can recite this prayer as often as you like.

No need. I long ago memorized the lord's prayer, as well as a few others, due to my upbringing. Should I ever feel compelled, this rather lovely, but ultimately made up bit of script will offer no more comfort than the ones I already know.

God bless.

His blessing is not needed.

 

[calamity]

why wouldn't i look at it honestly when i'm atheist? But what you're saying is more along the lines of what the OP and goshin are afraid of

i would assume some of the kids want a preacher who tells them jesus saves and had preachers like that before being incarcerated, whereas they did not want to hear the anti gay sermons, or certainly the gay kids didn't. The one thing all christians agree on is "jesus saves", like it or not. An atheist has no reason to go to such sermons, regardless or the particular message.

is preaching like that going to perpetuate hatred of atheists? Yes, quite possibly, but i don't have a reasonable solution to that.

Hatred of not only atheists but also Jews, Muslims, and anyone else who thinks belief in Christ is phooey.