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And So It Begins... [W:301]

Moderator's Warning:
Snarkiness, personal attacks, and ridiculous baiting smilies stop now, or some of you may find yourself unable to post in this thread.
 
distraff said:
Entering a building does not necessarily incur any extraordinary costs, if anything religion can help inspire inmates to change their ways, potentially saving taxpayer money for future imprisonment of inmates.
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I never said it would cost more to allow a preacher in to preach. But, he is preaching on our dime. Actually all preachers preach on our dime, if we take current tax law into account.

I believe in Freedom from Religion, I also believe in Freedom of Religion. We should not discriminate against religious organizations helping prisoners if we allow non-religious organizations to help prisoners. As long as we treat all religious organizations and non-religious organizations the same, then we are following the first amendment.
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Personally, I think feeding people BS is more destructive than positive. I know several people who traded the addiction of alcohol for an obsession of religion. I am not sure that there is all that much of a difference. Both vices are a form of escapism. And, Josh Duggar is the latest to show us that B is not necessarily any less destructive to house and home than A.
 
distraff said:
Yes basically. At least give them the same privileges as non-religious volunteer organizations that want to help convicts.
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Non religious organizations go by the same exact rules as religious organizations that enter the facility.

The juveniles are under the direct care and control of State or county (or whatever facility that they are in) They have to allow those organizations into the facility in order for them to have any contact with them. None of those organizations, the juveniles, the parents, or anyone else involved has any right to let those organizations into the facility. It is a privilege for the inmates and their parents and for the organizations for any religious or non-religious organization to be allowed inside of the facility. The decision is in the hands of those running the facility and those who the facility answers too. Whatever a religious or non-religious organization says or does inside the facility must be controlled by the facility since they are responsible for the care of the inmates. These facilities for juveniles have their own mental health staff to help deal with mental health issues. So there really is no need to have anyone else there.
 
FreedomFromAll said:
Non religious organizations go by the same exact rules as religious organizations that enter the facility.

The juveniles are under the direct care and control of State or county (or whatever facility that they are in) They have to allow those organizations into the facility in order for them to have any contact with them. None of those organizations, the juveniles, the parents, or anyone else involved has any right to let those organizations into the facility. It is a privilege for the inmates and their parents and for the organizations for any religious or non-religious organization to be allowed inside of the facility. The decision is in the hands of those running the facility and those who the facility answers too. Whatever a religious or non-religious organization says or does inside the facility must be controlled by the facility since they are responsible for the care of the inmates. These facilities for juveniles have their own mental health staff to help deal with mental health issues. So there really is no need to have anyone else there.
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Well as long as the facility is not unreasonably discriminating against any religion then the facilities can do what they want. Personally only allowing juvenile inmates to see psychologists for therapy sounds like a terrible idea. I think it is a great idea to let in community members who just want to help them. Its about getting them part of a positive community.
 
calamity said:
I never said it would cost more to allow a preacher in to preach. But, he is preaching on our dime. Actually all preachers preach on our dime, if we take current tax law into account.
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Preachers do not charge their customers. They ask for donations. Organizations that ask for donations are not taxed. How are these religious people who volunteer to talk to inmates doing this on our dime?

Personally, I think feeding people BS is more destructive than positive. I know several people who traded the addiction of alcohol for an obsession of religion. I am not sure that there is all that much of a difference. Both vices are a form of escapism. And, Josh Duggar is the latest to show us that B is not necessarily any less destructive to house and home than A.
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You seriously think it is a bad thing when a person gets rid of a destructive chemical addiction to a damaging substance and goes to church instead? In what world is that a bad thing? If you think going to church is as bad as alcoholism, then you must really hate churches.
 
distraff said:
Preachers do not charge their customers. They ask for donations. Organizations that ask for donations are not taxed. How are these religious people who volunteer to talk to inmates doing this on our dime?
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Time would be better spent teaching them math, science, reading and writing...not to mention a few job and social skills.



You seriously think it is a bad thing when a person gets rid of a destructive chemical addiction to a damaging substance and goes to church instead? In what world is that a bad thing? If you think going to church is as bad as alcoholism, then you must really hate churches.
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Religion can be quite destructive. THink 911.
 
VanceMack said:
And that expense is somehow caused by volunteers meeting with inmates?
:lamo
Good lord thats ****ing hilarious. Your arguments are the equivalent of a drowning man wearing a lead vest grasping at bowling balls to try to avoid drowning.
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Try using a room in a public building for an event and see what happens. Chance are you will have to pay rent, and if the event is after hours, pay for a couple of staff people to be present.
 
distraff said:
Well as long as the facility is not unreasonably discriminating against any religion then the facilities can do what they want. Personally only allowing juvenile inmates to see psychologists for therapy sounds like a terrible idea. I think it is a great idea to let in community members who just want to help them. Its about getting them part of a positive community.
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I agree there should be no discrimination at all. Obviously the Kentucky Department of Juvenile Justice already lets community members come in and work with the inmates. I only suggested not letting any of them in since it seems to be a problem. And I suspect that if it actually becomes a real problem that is what will happen.

But then this thread isnt about the actual event in the juvenile facility it is about a paranoid notion that Christianity is being outlawed. Even though I am not a Christian, if such things were actually happening I would be concerned about it. But in each case it turns out that someone was just being a alarmist.
 
Hard Truth said:
Try using a room in a public building for an event and see what happens. Chance are you will have to pay rent, and if the event is after hours, pay for a couple of staff people to be present.
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1-how does that have ANYTHING to do with increasing costs in a prison facility
2-have you yet grasped that this is NOT about people preaching to a captive audience but rather VOLUNTEER counselors meeting inmates at THEIR request?
 
chromium said:
that's how it is in small towns all across the country
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Last time I was in a church in a small southern town was Father's Day, 1995. A violinist I was dating had a gig at the church out in the sticks, and I volunteered to take her. A lot has changed since then.

In '95, Gay marriage wasn't even on the horizon. But, I got the distinct feeling the preacher was condoning child molestation during that sermon. Basically he said whatever the father does goes while staring straight at a family where the teen-aged daughter was sitting a wee bit too close to daddy. Very creepy.
 
calamity said:
Last time I was in a church in a small southern town was Father's Day, 1995. A violinist I was dating had a gig at the church out in the sticks, and I volunteered to take her. A lot has changed since then.

In '95, Gay marriage wasn't even on the horizon. But, I got the distinct feeling the preacher was condoning child molestation during that sermon. Basically he said whatever the father does goes while staring straight at a family where the teen-aged daughter was sitting a wee bit too close to daddy. Very creepy.
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well that's the thing, a lot of the sermon crusading in small towns didn't begin until gay rights became a "threat" (but really, an opportunity), in the 2000s. Why would they even bother before then, back when no one dared to come out?

Plus if you go back far enough, the subject of homosexuality in church was largely taboo even for purposes of condemning it. Oscar wilde's book generated such extremely hateful backlash not because there was suicide and murder, but because some paragraphs were homoerotic.

See, even where it was a forbidden topic, the *reason* it was forbidden and wilde and many others were persecuted was religion. It's been that way since augustine at least, and it's very clear that even to this day, anti gay groups like the FRC are heavily religious.
 
chromium said:
well that's the thing, a lot of the sermon crusading in small towns didn't begin until gay rights became a "threat" (but really, an opportunity), in the 2000s. Why would they even bother before then, back when no one dared to come out?

Plus if you go back far enough, the subject of homosexuality in church was largely taboo even for purposes of condemning it. Oscar wilde's book generated such extremely hateful backlash not because there was suicide and murder, but because some paragraphs were homoerotic.

See, even where it was a forbidden topic, the *reason* it was forbidden and wilde and many others were persecuted was religion. It's been that way since augustine at least, and it's very clear that even to this day, anti gay groups like the FRC are heavily religious.
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Ironic considering how gay the Vatican is, to name just one religious institution.
 
ChezC3 said:
The Christian purge has begun: Chaplains banned from preaching that homosexuality is a sin | Fox News

The Christian Purge has begun and while I've known for quite some time, the LGBT's movement's true intentions continues to be revealed -- legislated acceptance!

Sick.
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If he wants to preach sinful gayness and hell fire-purgatory for those evil gays, then go ahead. If he wants to do that in an adult prison, fine by me.

But this is a prison for children/under 18s and I totally agree with the state government that they must be protected in many ways. If for no other reason to protect vulnerable youths from more mental issues by being told every Sunday that they are sinners and that they are going to hell for being gay. Young LGBT kids have enough problems anyway and they do not need a government approved preacher telling them that they are sinners and that they are destined to go to hell because of them being gay.

If they allow that and an impressionable teen hangs himself in their jail, in part or greatly due to the preacher they allowed to preach at the jail, then they might have to spend millions defending their decisions or paying out even more due to them loosing a lawsuit.

Signing that document just meant he was not allowed to preach about that specific subject in a government facility for under 18 youths.

I think it is the right decision. As said, if he wants to do that in his own church, in front of his own flock then fine, but not to underaged youths in a government facility.
 
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