An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever [W:456]

[Master PO]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

It's interesting then, that the system we now use is considered the Hamiltonian system. I wonder why that is... could it be...


Hamilton, Alexander. (5 December 1791) "Report on Manufactures" The Papers of Alexander Hamilton (ed. by H.C. Syrett et al.; New York and London: Columbia University Press, 1961-79)

While I understand and applaud your strict constructionist interpretation of the founding documents, on this one issue I cannot sacrifice my morals and convictions that part of a union, part of having fellow countrymen I'm willing to fight and die to defend, to stand united, I cannot allow my gov't to stand by and not help the poor, the sick and the elderly. Whether the founders were Deists or Christians, there is a spirit to the constitution in addition to it's letter of law. That spirit is derived from our morality and a guide to the intent of those documents.

I agree, there is no point to having a gov't of the people if the people are suffering.

well here the points in question, if people who makeup this nation feel its that important, create an amendment, but dont just cease power, unconstitutionally.

or have the states do many of the things people want solved since states are not limited as the federal government is.

 

[AlabamaPaul]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

If we're talking about the state governments or individual people, there are no rights or privileges that should only be decided or defined via the Amendment process (9th/10th Amendment). The biggest concern of those who were opposed to a Bill of Rights was that anything not on paper would not be considered a right, and I happen to hold that concern myself.

Sometimes we use the Amendment process to stick a fork in it (like with women's suffrage), but there are no rights or privileges which should be recognized only via an Amendment.

So, you agree that the courts are within their authority in bestowing privileges even though its members are not elected?

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

well of coarse he is, ..as stated before when someone reads something say a book, or article, they are the foremost authority on the subject at hand....limke th bill of rights.

however Madison didn't write the constitution, but in put a lot into it, laid its frame work, took the notes of the Constitution, show up before the constitution and stayed after it was over to work on a committee.

wrote more work on the subject....we really owe him a lot.

Maybe you and I are using the word "authority" differently. I'm using it in much the same way I'd refer to the chair of a Senate comittee, or the Speaker of the House, or the President -- someone who has a measure of authority, a measure of responsibility, and a measure of accountability. In other words, someone who was elected or appointed or at least hired, whose job it is to make decisions which affect other people.

 

[Master PO]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

It puts your views on American Constitutional matters into serious question.

But it does explain your hatred of democracy.

i can see you have never read the founders very well, becuase they hated democracy be it direct or representative.

John Adams wrote in 1806: "I once thought our Constitution was quasi or mixed government, but they (Republicans) have now made it, to all intents and purposes, in virtue, in spirit, and in effect, a democracy. We are left without resources but in our prayers and tears, and have nothing that we can do or say, but the Lord have mercy on us."

 

[Linc]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

Why do you say that?

With about an equal number of Blue to Red gun states, I could be wrong, the 2nd could not muster 3/4 of the states, let alone Congress. This may sound odd, but can we skip the Congress, since they are forcing "we the people" to act and do their job?

 

[Henrin]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

While I understand and applaud your strict constructionist interpretation of the founding documents, on this one issue I cannot sacrifice my morals and convictions that part of a union, part of having fellow countrymen I'm willing to fight and die to defend, to stand united, I cannot allow my gov't to stand by and not help the poor, the sick and the elderly. Whether the founders were Deists or Christians, there is a spirit to the constitution in addition to it's letter of law. That spirit is derived from our morality and a guide to the intent of those documents.

Why is it the government job to take care of the poor, the sick and the elderly? How do they protect the rights of the people when they are taking from group A to provide things to group B? How does that work exactly? It is indeed a strange argument to make that they went from no taxation to acting like the highwayman...I mean Robin Hood.

 

[Etoner]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

i can see you have never read the founders very well, becuase they hated democracy be it direct or representative.

John Adams wrote in 1806: "I once thought our Constitution was quasi or mixed government, but they (Republicans) have now made it, to all intents and purposes, in virtue, in spirit, and in effect, a democracy. We are left without resources but in our prayers and tears, and have nothing that we can do or say, but the Lord have mercy on us."

What's wrong with a nation ruled by The People?

Do you prefer Monarchy?

Do you prefer Dictatorship?

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

So, you agree that the courts are within their authority in bestowing privileges even though its members are not elected?

I think they are within their authority to recognize privileges. I don't think they can create them out of thin air, I think they have to base their recognition on an argument or a precedent or a law of some kind.

I'm okay with judges having authority because even the ones that aren't elected (some of them are) are appointed by an executive I had the opportunity to vote against and confirmed by a legislature, one member of which I had the opportunity to vote against.

It's not a perfect system, but I have a hell of a lot more say over who sits on the bench than I do over some imagined power entrusted to a dead guy.

 

[Etoner]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

Why is it government job to take care of the poor, the sick and the elderly? How do they protect the rights of the people when they are taking from group A to provide things to group B? How does that work exactly?

The government has the organization and resources to best deal with statewide problems.

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

With about an equal number of Blue to Red gun states, I could be wrong, the 2nd could not muster 3/4 of the states, let alone Congress. This may sound odd, but can we skip the Congress, since they are forcing "we the people" to act and do their job?

We can skip congress if 2/3rds of the states call for a convention.

 

[Henrin]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

What's wrong with a nation ruled by The People?

Do you prefer Monarchy?

Do you prefer Dictatorship?

I prefer a constitutional republic.

 

[AlabamaPaul]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

I think they are within their authority to recognize privileges. I don't think they can create them out of thin air, I think they have to base their recognition on an argument or a precedent or a law of some kind.

I'm okay with judges having authority because even the ones that aren't elected (some of them are) are appointed by an executive I had the opportunity to vote against and confirmed by a legislature, one member of which I had the opportunity to vote against.

It's not a perfect system, but I have a hell of a lot more say over who sits on the bench than I do over some imagined power entrusted to a dead guy.

What was the precedent for the Roe v Wade ruling? BTW, I'm not aware of any federally elected judgeship...

 

[Etoner]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

I prefer a constitutional republic.

with Democratically elected leaders.

 

[Henrin]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

The government has the organization and resources to best deal with statewide problems.

So? Why does that make it their job to deal with social problems?

 

[Henrin]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

with Democratically elected leaders.

You don't really understand a republican form of government, do you?

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

What was the precedent for the Roe v Wade ruling?

I have no idea why you're asking me, read it yourself.

BTW, I'm not aware of any federally elected judgeship...

That's why I said judge, not Federal judge. I was talking about judges in general.

 

[Etoner]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

You don't really understand a republican form of government, do you?

you don't want our leaders to be voted for in democratic elections by The People?

How should our leaders be elected then?

 

[Master PO]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

Maybe you and I are using the word "authority" differently. I'm using it in much the same way I'd refer to the chair of a Senate comittee, or the Speaker of the House, or the President -- someone who has a measure of authority, a measure of responsibility, and a measure of accountability. In other words, someone who was elected or appointed or at least hired, whose job it is to make decisions which affect other people.

well yes, that's a good point....i use authority to mean, " are you legally given the power to do that by the Constitution"

and since their are only 18 things for congress, that keeps them pretty limited in their actions.

you will also note in the constitution, were in the 18 powers of congress do the federal government and the citizen, intersect.....no where,.... unless you are a pirate, counterfeiter traitor.

and you will note this too:

"The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;--to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls;--to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction;--to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party;--to Controversies between two or more States;-- between a State and Citizens of another State,--between Citizens of different States,--between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects"

do you see anywhere it says....to Controversies between a citizen and the untied states...even though it mentions citizens in every other case......no, because under the founders, they stated a bill of rights was not necessary becuase the powers of government,.... becuase they were limited, could not infringe on the rights of citizens.....so it was not put into the constitution.

 

[Master PO]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

What's wrong with a nation ruled by The People?

Do you prefer Monarchy?

Do you prefer Dictatorship?

"The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened), against domestic Violence"

 

[Etoner]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

"The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened), against domestic Violence"

who should choose our leaders and legislators?

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

well yes, that's a good point....i use authority to mean, " are you legally given the power to do that by the Constitution"

and since their are only 18 things for congress, that keeps them pretty limited intheri actions.

you will also note in the constitution, were in the 18 powers of congress do the federal government and the citizen, intersect.....no where,.... unless you are a pirate, counterfeiter traitor.

and you will note this too:

"The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority;--to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls;--to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction;--to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party;--to Controversies between two or more States;-- between a State and Citizens of another State,--between Citizens of different States,--between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects"

do you see anywhere it says....to Controversies between a citizen and the untied states...even though it mentions citizens in every other case......no, because under the founders, they stated a bill of rights was not necessary becuase the powers of government, becuase they were limited, could not infringe on the rights of citizens.....so it was not put into the constitution.

If that's how you're using the term authority, what authority does Madison have today that was legally given to him by the Constitution?

 

[Master PO]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

If that's how you're using the term authority, what authority does Madison have today that was legally given to him by the Constitution?

Madison is stating what the authority under the constitution is...and its clear for congress ...18 powers

 

[AlabamaPaul]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

I have no idea why you're asking me, read it yourself.



That's why I said judge, not Federal judge. I was talking about judges in general.

I have read it, and there was no precedent. I asked because you stated that privileges could be granted based on "I don't think they can create them out of thin air, I think they have to base their recognition on an argument or a precedent or a law of some kind." I was just wondering what you might consider the justification for the ruling.

This entire discussion has related to the federal level, not State...

 

[TacticalEvilDan]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

Madison is stating what the authority under the constitution is...and its clear for congress ...18 powers

What authority does Madison have today that was legally given to him by the Constitution?

 

[Master PO]

Re: An Open Constitutional Convention is needed NOW more than ever

who should choose our leaders and legislators?

the people choose the house, the state legislators choose the senate, that way, power is divided between the people and the states, so that one group does not have all the power to become tyrannical.