An electric car won’t save you money

[longview]

My brother is a wind turbine technician in Oregon - the turbines have pitch controls on the blades, and can be turned up or down to compensate for demand and wind speed. Works like a charm, and can be automatically of manually trimmed. The utility actually charges a penalty fee if they supply more than a pre-determined amount.

I understand the pitch control, but what feedback from the grid tells the turbine operator they are generating too much?
I could see how a wind farm would have communication to a load factor, but there still seems to be a lot of concern
about grid overloading. Normally they can turn down the output of traditional power plants, but those cannot go negative.

 

[eohrnberger]

You can worry about costs, sure that's legitimate, but that does pale in comparison being in a vehicle when it spontaneously combusts.

City Halts Electric Bus Program After Second Packed Transport Bursts Into Flames

Paris was trying to electrify its bus fleet quickly. Instead, the city's public transport authorities narrowly avoided a disaster.

www.westernjournal.com

Also:

https://www.nbcnews.com › tech › tech-news › new-tesla-model-caught-fire-driver-was-wheel-says-fire-chief-rcna1326​

New Tesla model caught fire while driver was at the wheel, says fire chief​

This Tesla Model S Plaid caught fire while the driver was at the wheel, according to a local fire chief and attorneys representing the driver, on June 29, 2021, in Haverford, Pa. Courtesy Geragos &...​

https://www.tesla-fire.com​

All Reported Tesla Fires | Tesla Fire​

What counts as a Tesla fire incident/event? Any sort of sustained and damaging thermal event contained within or on a Tesla car or product due to thermal runaway, charging station malfunction, external factors such as arson, etc. See the NFPA's 2020 vehicle fire research report for more causes of fires pertaining to electric vehicles like Tesla's.

 

[The Old Soul]

I understand the pitch control, but what feedback from the grid tells the turbine operator they are generating too much?
I could see how a wind farm would have communication to a load factor, but there still seems to be a lot of concern
about grid overloading. Normally they can turn down the output of traditional power plants, but those cannot go negative.

Mostly, the wind turbine generation capacity values are predetermined on paper by maximum, with failovers on minimum. They are under similar limits and regulations as the Coulee dam. Bro hates it when he's on 'meter' duty - he sits there and stares at gages all day, watching for over and under values and red and green lights and alarms. Plenty of computer control too.

Much of it is economics; the fossil generators and dam generators must meet certain output levels to stay profitable and maintain functional fuel demands, and wind is supplemental.

 

[longview]

Mostly, the wind turbine generation capacity values are predetermined on paper by maximum, with failovers on minimum. They are under similar limits and regulations as the Coulee dam. Bro hates it when he's on 'meter' duty - he sits there and stares at gages all day, watching for over and under values and red and green lights and alarms. Plenty of computer control too.

Much of it is economics; the fossil generators and dam generators must meet certain output levels to stay profitable and maintain functional fuel demands, and wind is supplemental.

So a person stuffed into the feedback loop?

 

[Roadvirus]

If you think an e vehicle is cheaper to own think again. Even at today’s gas prices you won’t even break even until you own your e car from eight to 13 years.

Don't Swap Your Gas-Guzzler for an Electric Vehicle to Avoid High Fuel Prices

EVs make a lot of sense, especially as fuel prices climb, but avoid knee-jerk impulses to buy an electric car just to save money at the pump.

www.cnet.com

And if you live in California's Bay Area, don't expect the EV charging stations to work:

California driving: Over a quarter of electric car-charging stations in Bay Area not working, study says

California is working to reduce its greenhouse gas emissions by "40% below 1990 levels by 2030," according to the California Air Resources Board.

www.foxbusiness.com

 

[Buzz]

So a person stuffed into the feedback loop?

Yeah... I'm sure this person has a dial and readout for each windmill and they are sitting there manually adjusting the pitch of each one as the wind fluctuates... Not!!

But you go ahead and believe whatever you want. Like you always do.



And for those of us who deal in reality, here is some more info.

 

[ecofarm]

And if you live in California's Bay Area, don't expect the EV charging stations to work:

California driving: Over a quarter of electric car-charging stations in Bay Area not working, study says

California is working to reduce its greenhouse gas emissions by "40% below 1990 levels by 2030," according to the California Air Resources Board.

www.foxbusiness.com

Fly-over concern for the Bay Area.

lol

 

[longview]

Yeah... I'm sure this person has a dial and readout for each windmill and they are sitting there manually adjusting the pitch of each one as the wind fluctuates... Not!!

But you go ahead and believe whatever you want. Like you always do.



And for those of us who deal in reality, here is some more info.

I hope you understand what I am talking about!

 

[The Old Soul]

So a person stuffed into the feedback loop?

You would thing that after so many years of wind turbine utilization combined with fossil fuel and hydro combined in the Oregon branch of the West coast grid, that the 'problem' is just now coming to light, and stuffing someone in the feedback loop is the summarization of how that part of the system works?

Better get on the phone and enlighten Pacific Power.

 

[OrphanSlug]

An electric car just exchanges one set of problems for an entirely different set of problems.

 

[The Old Soul]

An electric car just exchanges one set of problems for an entirely different set of problems.

Absolutely! But the solution set (which might eventually eliminate bat-op cars altogether), seems to have more possibilities and options than continuing down the fossil fuel road. At least it is a step in the right direction, rather than digging in of heels and resisting innovation.

 

[longview]

You would thing that after so many years of wind turbine utilization combined with fossil fuel and hydro combined in the Oregon branch of the West coast grid, that the 'problem' is just now coming to light, and stuffing someone in the feedback loop is the summarization of how that part of the system works?

Better get on the phone and enlighten Pacific Power.

If they still have a person sitting there monitoring it, it does sound like a potential problem.

 

[longview]

Absolutely! But the solution set (which might eventually eliminate bat-op cars altogether), seems to have more possibilities and options than continuing down the fossil fuel road. At least it is a step in the right direction, rather than digging in of heels and resisting innovation.

energy carrying packages need not be batteries, assuming that will be the future technology may be
one form of resisting innovation.
Consider that short of a major technology advance, battery energy density is unlikely to double,
a fuel cell hybrid carrying it's hydrogen as gasoline with a steam reformer could triple the amount
of energy that could be extracted from a gallon of gasoline that need not come from a fossil source.
This could mean that a mid size car could get over 100 miles per gallon of carbon neutral gasoline.
A similar mass of battery would likely be 200 lbs.

 

[The Old Soul]

If they still have a person sitting there monitoring it, it does sound like a potential problem.

I'm confused; please don't be too quick to agree.
I was surprised that the wind turbine farms get penalized for feeding too much power into the grid, but they do. When Bro is on Meter Duty he calls to ward off boredom, and that is how I find out most of what I know about the springenworken of turbine generators.

He has told me about when they do installation, periodic maintenance, and repairs, and the generators themselves, and they are both complex and mechanical, the formula for issues. Think self-driving cars, and the need for someone sitting in the drivers seat...just in case. A totally software controlled system would have to be programmed for any and every failure - potential or realized. Maybe in an on/off, up/down, in/out world it would be possible to build a fail-safe system, but when there are hundreds of multimillion dollar turbines powering entire states, a few extra 'human' precautions are warranted.

 

[longview]

I'm confused; please don't be too quick to agree.
I was surprised that the wind turbine farms get penalized for feeding too much power into the grid, but they do. When Bro is on Meter Duty he calls to ward off boredom, and that is how I find out most of what I know about the springenworken of turbine generators.

He has told me about when they do installation, periodic maintenance, and repairs, and the generators themselves, and they are both complex and mechanical, the formula for issues. Think self-driving cars, and the need for someone sitting in the drivers seat...just in case. A totally software controlled system would have to be programmed for any and every failure - potential or realized. Maybe in an on/off, up/down, in/out world it would be possible to build a fail-safe system, but when there are hundreds of multimillion dollar turbines powering entire states, a few extra 'human' precautions are warranted.

I can see that, but it sounds like the balancing act is too complex for the automated systems to do without
a backup.

 

[The Old Soul]

energy carrying packages need not be batteries, assuming that will be the future technology may be
one form of resisting innovation.
Consider that short of a major technology advance, battery energy density is unlikely to double,
a fuel cell hybrid carrying it's hydrogen as gasoline with a steam reformer could triple the amount
of energy that could be extracted from a gallon of gasoline that need not come from a fossil source.
This could mean that a mid size car could get over 100 miles per gallon of carbon neutral gasoline.
A similar mass of battery would likely be 200 lbs.

Sure thing; battery technology is close to where the flat-head, carbureted piston engine was in the early 1900's sucking down many gallons of gas and belching out clouds of pollution to make single-digit horsespower. Definitely, a Hydrogen Fuel Cell (or some other form of free-electron generator) may dominate the vehicular industry in the future, but like you said, so could the Supercapacitor, or some form of induction system like France is trying with in-the-road charging. No argument, the electric motor will be the source of motive force in the near and distant future though - it's just coming up with the most viable source(s) of -e. The corporate scramble is on; innovation and creative thinking will guide the solutions; we just need to keep those doors open.

Who would have thought 50 years ago that roof-mount solar would be viable for the general public, or a cell phone would have many orders of magnitude of capacity, speed, and a battery the size of a matchbook compared to the warehouse sized ENIAC of the last century which used enough electricity to power a small town? In the future, the passenger car as we know it may go away completely with goods and services coming to us instead of the other way around, which is already happening. I wish time travel was possible, and we could glimpse 100 years into the future - unless we push 'the button' first.

 

[longview]

Sure thing; battery technology is close to where the flat-head, carbureted piston engine was in the early 1900's sucking down many gallons of gas and belching out clouds of pollution to make single-digit horsespower. Definitely, a Hydrogen Fuel Cell (or some other form of free-electron generator) may dominate the vehicular industry in the future, but like you said, so could the Supercapacitor, or some form of induction system like France is trying with in-the-road charging. No argument, the electric motor will be the source of motive force in the near and distant future though - it's just coming up with the most viable source(s) of -e. The corporate scramble is on; innovation and creative thinking will guide the solutions; we just need to keep those doors open.

Who would have thought 50 years ago that roof-mount solar would be viable for the general public, or a cell phone would have many orders of magnitude of capacity, speed, and a battery the size of a matchbook compared to the warehouse sized ENIAC of the last century which used enough electricity to power a small town? In the future, the passenger car as we know it may go away completely with goods and services coming to us instead of the other way around, which is already happening. I wish time travel was possible, and we could glimpse 100 years into the future - unless we push 'the button' first.

At the stage, the government picking winners ahead of time, is like encouraging steam powered cars in 1900.
We do not know what will happen in the future, Humans are very clever.

 

[novojanus]

If you think an e vehicle is cheaper to own think again. Even at today’s gas prices you won’t even break even until you own your e car from eight to 13 years.

Don't Swap Your Gas-Guzzler for an Electric Vehicle to Avoid High Fuel Prices

EVs make a lot of sense, especially as fuel prices climb, but avoid knee-jerk impulses to buy an electric car just to save money at the pump.

www.cnet.com

I find this strange. I paid $37K for a Chevy Bolt about 3 years ago so I paid almost exactly what I would have for a similarly priced new gas engine car. Since that time, for the past 3 years I've effectively driven for no real cost. The maintenance cost is less most years and I charge on my solar at home. So I can't see how I'm not doing well, if not coming out ahead. While the rest of you all are struggling with rising gas prices I barely know the cost of gas around here since I haven't bought any for years now.

And since my solar unit at home produces more than enough for my home month-over-month with a consistent excess I still come out not paying an electricity bill either.

 

[novojanus]

Ive never understood that argument. A comparable EV costs twice as much as a combustion engine. They should just sell them as good for the environment. Thats more believable even though we know its not true either.

My Chevy Bolt cost $37K. That's about the same price as a car of a similar size. No real breaks on the price either. That was the MSRP.

 

[novojanus]

At the stage, the government picking winners ahead of time, is like encouraging steam powered cars in 1900.

Or demanding the phase out of leaded gasoline in the early 80's.

 

[Chainsawmassacre]

My Chevy Bolt cost $37K. That's about the same price as a car of a similar size. No real breaks on the price either. That was the MSRP.

The 10 Cheapest New Cars You Can Buy in 2019

The good news? The priciest car on this list costs just over $16,000.

www.caranddriver.com

 

[novojanus]

The 10 Cheapest New Cars You Can Buy in 2019

The good news? The priciest car on this list costs just over $16,000.

www.caranddriver.com

Yeah, that's absolutely bottom price. That isn't what you'll get at the dealership if you have even a modest package of improvements on it.

I haven't seen prices like THESE on new cars since about the mid 1990's.

The average cost of a new car in the US (and obviously this includes some extremes, I'd rather see "median" but it's what I can get) is about $47K.

New Car Price Keeps Climbing, with Average Now at Almost $47,100

Reduced supply, increased demand: It all adds up to higher prices for the new-car-buying public.

www.caranddriver.com

 

[Chainsawmassacre]

Yeah, that's absolutely bottom price. That isn't what you'll get at the dealership if you have even a modest package of improvements on it.

I haven't seen prices like THESE on new cars since about the mid 1990's.

The average cost of a new car in the US (and obviously this includes some extremes, I'd rather see "median" but it's what I can get) is about $47K.

New Car Price Keeps Climbing, with Average Now at Almost $47,100

Reduced supply, increased demand: It all adds up to higher prices for the new-car-buying public.

www.caranddriver.com

When you bought your 37K Bolt in 2019 similar ICE vehicles were half that price. That’s just reality.

 

[longview]

Or demanding the phase out of leaded gasoline in the early 80's.

Not really, that was science based.
pre supposing that battery electric cars are the future is picking a winner.

 

[novojanus]

When you bought your 37K Bolt in 2019 similar ICE vehicles were half that price. That’s just reality.

Not really. There's absolutely ZERO chance that one could buy a car with the various bells and whistles that this has (rearview cameras, side-collision alert, the various alarms for upcoming cars and pedestrians, XM satellite radio etc) for $17K from Chevy. Not even close.

I've spent my life in inexpensive cars up to this point (with one brief break long ago) and I have never gotten what is on this car for that little money.