An electric car won’t save you money

[jonny5]

Range, range, range; that is not the end-all be-all to BEV marketing. Auto makers realize that, and are focusing on price-point as a function of range...they are looking towards getting eV's into economy car markets, and understand that those who cannot afford luxury car prices are also those who travel little and can't afford to.

More economical Lithium Nickle batteries with ranges closer to the 100-mile mark in cars priced under $20K are on the table, and will have a lot of appeal to the mass market as an entry point into electrics. A lot of us neither need nor want to pay for mega-batteries; my review the trip summaries for the past year (you can pull up a record of trips on a Tesla), there are no excursions over 60 miles away, with most under 20 miles.

The beauty of an eV is it's so simple to upgrade; a battery, a motor, and the entire drive mechanism can be easily replaced. Standardized across the industry (yes, they're planning that) power-pack modules will make interchanging and replacing batteries as technically feasible as the AA's in the wife's vibrator. Even if batteries are life-limited, the cars they go in will not be. The biggest reasons used eV cars will hit the bone yard will be wrecks and rust, not a clapped-out drive trains.

But its all unnecessary. You spend more money, get less car. And dont even help the environment given the damage producing the car does and the fact electricity comes from fossil fuel. Electric cars are still ahead of their time.

 

[Chainsawmassacre]

No the problem is that you can’t help yourself when it comes to EVs… you seem magnetically drawn to spreading misinformation to tank them. The reality is that EVs are a cost save for some, cost add for others, and neutral for still others, and that the choice to purchase a car is a multidimensional matter of which cost is only one element alongside safety, features, size, comfort, performance, style and more. But this is too complicated for the @Chainsawmassacre world where EVs must either be Bad or Good.

That’s why you keep posting links to crap analysis that you yourself haven’t read and don’t understand, that take select edge cases and promote them as the norm.

That said I don’t really care any more - you should definitely not buy one. There are waitlists for virtually all EVs so it’s totally okay for you to rant irrationally against them. Others will get to enjoy them instead of you, and you get to feel like you’ve fought the good fight against EVs and can feel good about yourself. It’s a win-win.

if you have facts and figures that are different than those in the OP link feel free to present them. So far you seem to have nothing but an emotional rant.

 

[Chainsawmassacre]

I understand the averages, but people also use their cars for more than the average trips 5 to 10% of the time, do you expect them to have a second car for that 5 to 10%?

It's somewhat like alternative energy. Works fine most of the time but you need redundant fossil fuel plants for when it doesn't.

 

[longview]

It's somewhat like alternative energy. Works fine most of the time but you need redundant fossil fuel plants for when it doesn't.

Agreed, to take advantage of home solar for example, off grid is much more expensive than on grid,
because it has to have it's own battery and backup. If the entire grid is to run on alternate energy,
it to will require massive energy storage, as well as backup.

 

[Chainsawmassacre]

Agreed, to take advantage of home solar for example, off grid is much more expensive than on grid,
because it has to have it's own battery and backup. If the entire grid is to run on alternate energy,
it to will require massive energy storage, as well as backup.

As I've said before but I'll repeat for those that don't know, my home is off grid solar. In summer we barely run our generator and it works great. In winter we run the generator 3 hours a day on average. Price of gasoline is making that kind of spendy.

 

[longview]

As I've said before but I'll repeat for those that don't know, my home is off grid solar. In summer we barely run our generator and it works great. In winter we run the generator 3 hours a day on average. Price of gasoline is making that kind of spendy.

How much battery capacity do you have?

 

[Chainsawmassacre]

How much battery capacity do you have?

It's a relatively small sytem. Six golf cart batteries. Fridge, stove, on demand water heater and dryer are propane so fossil fuel runs the big energy users. Batteries run lights, TV, small kitchen appliances etc.

 

[longview]

It's a relatively small sytem. Six golf cart batteries. Fridge, stove, on demand water heater and dryer are propane so fossil fuel runs the big energy users. Batteries run lights, TV, small kitchen appliances etc.

Thanks, I was looking at what it would take to run just a 12000 BTU ductless minisplit AC with solar 24/7, and it looks like I would need
about 5000 watts of panels, and at least 6 Kwh of batteries, and even that would not cover cloudy days.
I am not saying that we will never be able to run will all alternative energy, but rather it is far more complicated
than people seem to assume.

 

[Chainsawmassacre]

Thanks, I was looking at what it would take to run just a 12000 BTU ductless minisplit AC with solar 24/7, and it looks like I would need
about 5000 watts of panels, and at least 6 Kwh of batteries, and even that would not cover cloudy days.
I am not saying that we will never be able to run will all alternative energy, but rather it is far more complicated
than people seem to assume.

We have one of these in our rental in town. It heats and cools great and uses very little electricity. I think solar could run it pretty well.

Residential HVAC – Home Heating and Cooling | Mitsubishi Electric

Our home heating and cooling systems (ducted or ductless) offer zoned residential HVAC to heat or cool any home, any room, anywhere.

www.mitsubishicomfort.com

 

[longview]

We have one of these in our rental in town. It heats and cools great and uses very little electricity. I think solar could run it pretty well.

Residential HVAC – Home Heating and Cooling | Mitsubishi Electric

Our home heating and cooling systems (ducted or ductless) offer zoned residential HVAC to heat or cool any home, any room, anywhere.

www.mitsubishicomfort.com

That was the general idea, AC is the big energy consumer in my area, so if you could have a solar panel system that only
did a mini split, it would significantly impact the electrical usage, by offsetting the load on the main AC, and not require grid attachment.

 

[The Old Soul]

Fair points all, I still think it could become a logistical problem, if even say 20% of the cars become battery electric.

Considering that only 5 years ago 1 hour was considered a quick charge: "The Ioniq top-ups to 80 percent full in an advertised 18 minutes of plug time." That's a little more than 200 miles range; as technology continues to improve, so will charge times - I suspect in the near future, BEV 'fueling' times will equal ICE:

The Hyundai Ioniq 5 Slices EV Charging Times, Peels Back Eyeballs

Great discussion on Solar; I'm looking at a ground mount system instead of a roof mount - the array can be moved to follow the seasonal arc of the sun, and they can be kept cleaner via convenience. Easier to upgrade too. Hope that a secondary market for replaced car batteries makes home storage cheaper - maybe time to start raiding landfills!

 

[The Old Soul]

But its all unnecessary. You spend more money, get less car. And dont even help the environment given the damage producing the car does and the fact electricity comes from fossil fuel. Electric cars are still ahead of their time.

Good to be ahead of the times rather than behind! The solar array should be up and running by mid-summer so the car and bike will off the grid for motive energy; I find the tech to be part of the fun going electric.

Sort of like when I spent $1000 bucks back in the 1980's on an 8-bit 520ST Atari PC (no printer, cassette drive); in college I was the only student who did all my papers and spreadsheets on it, and look at where computers are today! It was fun too; as a member of the S.T.U.G., I had a grass-roots base to draw on - I could code BASIC like the wind, and every program came in under 64K.

It took about 20 years to fully integrate the Internet, and now, most everyone has a mini-PC in their pocket.

 

[longview]

Considering that only 5 years ago 1 hour was considered a quick charge: "The Ioniq top-ups to 80 percent full in an advertised 18 minutes of plug time." That's a little more than 200 miles range; as technology continues to improve, so will charge times - I suspect in the near future, BEV 'fueling' times will equal ICE:

The Hyundai Ioniq 5 Slices EV Charging Times, Peels Back Eyeballs

Great discussion on Solar; I'm looking at a ground mount system instead of a roof mount - the array can be moved to follow the seasonal arc of the sun, and they can be kept cleaner via convenience. Easier to upgrade too. Hope that a secondary market for replaced car batteries makes home storage cheaper - maybe time to start raiding landfills!

The Ioniq is still a $50,000 car, and I wonder how many of rapid chargers are available.
( I also wonder if the rapid charging affects the battery life.)

Btw, Car batteries have been recycled for many years already, that is why there is a core charge.
In any cast there are almost no car batteries in landfills.
A coworker had a ground mount array, but said the best that worked for him was the fixed system.

 

[jonny5]

Good to be ahead of the times rather than behind! The solar array should be up and running by mid-summer so the car and bike will off the grid for motive energy; I find the tech to be part of the fun going electric.

Sort of like when I spent $1000 bucks back in the 1980's on an 8-bit 520ST Atari PC (no printer, cassette drive); in college I was the only student who did all my papers and spreadsheets on it, and look at where computers are today! It was fun too; as a member of the S.T.U.G., I had a grass-roots base to draw on - I could code BASIC like the wind, and every program came in under 64K.

It took about 20 years to fully integrate the Internet, and now, most everyone has a mini-PC in their pocket.

The internet didnt replace anything (or rather it replaced everything). It was an entirely new concept which had infinite benefit and low cost. Electric cars are doing basically the same thing we already do, for more money. A better comparison would be teleportation.

But ive no issue with you spending youre money how you like. I do have an issue with govt using my money to force me through subsidies and regulation.

 

[The Old Soul]

The internet didnt replace anything (or rather it replaced everything). It was an entirely new concept which had infinite benefit and low cost. Electric cars are doing basically the same thing we already do, for more money. A better comparison would be teleportation.

But ive no issue with you spending youre money how you like. I do have an issue with govt using my money to force me through subsidies and regulation.

Subsidizing the rich 'oilgarchy' hurts much worse than what is given to the eV industry et al:
A conservative estimate from Oil Change International puts the U.S. total at around $20.5 billion annually, including $14.7 billion in federal subsidies and $5.8 billion in state-level incentives.

 

[jonny5]

Subsidizing the rich 'oilgarchy' hurts much worse than what is given to the eV industry et al:
A conservative estimate from Oil Change International puts the U.S. total at around $20.5 billion annually, including $14.7 billion in federal subsidies and $5.8 billion in state-level incentives.

Not subsidies, tax credits which all companies get in various forms, including EV industry. Though Im against those as well. And more so against actual subsidies like the famous Solyndra.

 

[The Old Soul]

Not subsidies, tax credits which all companies get in various forms, including EV industry. Though Im against those as well. And more so against actual subsidies like the famous Solyndra.

A lot of the monies (or however these recipients come out ahead legislatively) that are channeled into many of these companies are a direct function of PACs - more so than companies having a video/dirt/bribe. If PACs went away, or were allowed only if non-monetary, a ton of these 'benefits' would go away.

Money, power, and ebven more money has corrupted our government to almost incomprehensible levels. The two parties that run our country are in it for themselves, and the party structure they have built makes reform impossible; they will never pull the rug out from under themselves.

 

[jonny5]

A lot of the monies (or however these recipients come out ahead legislatively) that are channeled into many of these companies are a direct function of PACs - more so than companies having a video/dirt/bribe. If PACs went away, or were allowed only if non-monetary, a ton of these 'benefits' would go away.

Money, power, and ebven more money has corrupted our government to almost incomprehensible levels. The two parties that run our country are in it for themselves, and the party structure they have built makes reform impossible; they will never pull the rug out from under themselves.

A more direct function is legislators voting. Just stop electing them.

 

[phoenix2020]

Good to be ahead of the times rather than behind! The solar array should be up and running by mid-summer so the car and bike will off the grid for motive energy; I find the tech to be part of the fun going electric.

Sort of like when I spent $1000 bucks back in the 1980's on an 8-bit 520ST Atari PC (no printer, cassette drive); in college I was the only student who did all my papers and spreadsheets on it, and look at where computers are today! It was fun too; as a member of the S.T.U.G., I had a grass-roots base to draw on - I could code BASIC like the wind, and every program came in under 64K.

It took about 20 years to fully integrate the Internet, and now, most everyone has a mini-PC in their pocket.

Indeed.

In the 1980s there were no shortage of skeptics who railed against the idea of computers in homes, in schools. There will always be a percentage of the population who instinctively resist change: their kind resisted the introduction of the automobile, the introduction of electricity into homes, the introduction of commercial air travel, the introduction of computers, the introduction of the Internet and so on. As a general rule, these people invariably are (a) left behind (b) rendered obsolete and (c) eventually die off and are decades later referred to by their descendants as "quaint" or "set in their way."

It's clear that there are some people on this thread who will meet a similar fate. They know who they are.

There's not much to gain by trying to convince them of any of the upcoming transitions in mobility (electrification, autonomy...) since they'll be self-selected out in the long run anyway. The important thing is for us to always be flexible and willing to accommodate change, consider it, critically evaluate it, and be willing to kick the tires on it to form a more well rounded opinion of it. I very much hope that in my final days I am still trying new things in my day to day life.

 

[phoenix2020]

But its all unnecessary. You spend more money, get less car. And dont even help the environment given the damage producing the car does and the fact electricity comes from fossil fuel. Electric cars are still ahead of their time.

Incorrect, you don't get less car, you get different car -- a combination of less and more.

Less in terms of range and fueling time, cost and at the moment, choice / selection.

More in terms of safety, power, handling, interior packaging, NVH, maintenance, reliability and average operating cost.

For some people, electric cars made sense several years ago. For other people, electric cars won't make sense for years to come.

I realize this is more complex a picture than the narrative you'd prefer, but that's fine. You should not get an EV, and you should tell all the people who feel the same as you that they should not get one, so that you all feel better about having fought the good fight against the bad EV. That way there will be more next-gen stuff for the rest of us while you drive whatever it is you have and whine about how bleak the future is. After all, your thinking is not actually much different from "smart phones are still ahead of their time because battery life isn't as good as my flip phone!" or "cars are still ahead of their time because they don't go off-road as easily as my horse!" That's fine and I'm totally cool with your spending the rest of your days with your flip phone and horse.

 

[VanceMack]

"$8,346.12 That’s the cost of the battery only for a 2013 Hybrid vehicle that is in my shop right now. Labor is 6.5 hours so about
$9K"

Also...

"Tesla battery replacement cost varies depending on the labor and parts needed. Typically, the most basic battery replacement in tesla costs between $13,000 and $14,000. For the Model S premium sedan, replacing a Tesla battery costs around $13,000-$20,000. Model 3 entry-level sedan and Model X premium SUV battery replacement can cost at least $13,000 and $14,000 respectively.


Also, you may have to pay around $20-200 for replacement parts like wiring and connectors. The labor charge may cost you nearly $175 per hour. Always be ready to shell out a few more dollars in additional labor charges if the repairs are complex or have any problems with the replacement."

That should give you a feel for the e-car batter replacement.

 

[The Old Soul]

Indeed.

In the 1980s there were no shortage of skeptics who railed against the idea of computers in homes, in schools. There will always be a percentage of the population who instinctively resist change: their kind resisted the introduction of the automobile, the introduction of electricity into homes, the introduction of commercial air travel, the introduction of computers, the introduction of the Internet and so on. As a general rule, these people invariably are (a) left behind (b) rendered obsolete and (c) eventually die off and are decades later referred to by their descendants as "quaint" or "set in their way."

It's clear that there are some people on this thread who will meet a similar fate. They know who they are.

There's not much to gain by trying to convince them of any of the upcoming transitions in mobility (electrification, autonomy...) since they'll be self-selected out in the long run anyway. The important thing is for us to always be flexible and willing to accommodate change, consider it, critically evaluate it, and be willing to kick the tires on it to form a more well rounded opinion of it. I very much hope that in my final days I am still trying new things in my day to day life.

Life is so much more interesting actually looking forward, rather than arguing against it. Keeps the mind young too!

The positive is that the naysayers, by banging on the same tired talking points, are actually promoting what they are against, prompting replies and valid responses that lead to those with vision and the ability to think creatively to make intelligent decisions, in one direction or the other.

Analytical minds ingest the facts and personal observations, separate the chaff from the wheat, and realize that nonsensical arguments only support progress. Many years ago, interest in eV's was cultivated by a friend who converted his Ford Ranger to electric, being powered by conventional 12V car batteries; it worked! Range was abysmal, but he could attain highway speeds, and actually used it for very local trips. My first thought was to apply the method to motorcycles, and pull a small trailer equipped with batteries. Now 25 years later there is a production electric motorcycle in the garage, and it is one of the best conversation starters I've ever had. It's fast and reliable, and rather than see it as the solution, know it's a stepping-stone to better things to come.

Your observations are spot on, and reflect my sentiments exactly - thanks for that!

 

[longview]

Life is so much more interesting actually looking forward, rather than arguing against it. Keeps the mind young too!

The positive is that the naysayers, by banging on the same tired talking points, are actually promoting what they are against, prompting replies and valid responses that lead to those with vision and the ability to think creatively to make intelligent decisions, in one direction or the other.

Analytical minds ingest the facts and personal observations, separate the chaff from the wheat, and realize that nonsensical arguments only support progress. Many years ago, interest in eV's was cultivated by a friend who converted his Ford Ranger to electric, being powered by conventional 12V car batteries; it worked! Range was abysmal, but he could attain highway speeds, and actually used it for very local trips. My first thought was to apply the method to motorcycles, and pull a small trailer equipped with batteries. Now 25 years later there is a production electric motorcycle in the garage, and it is one of the best conversation starters I've ever had. It's fast and reliable, and rather than see it as the solution, know it's a stepping-stone to better things to come.

Your observations are spot on, and reflect my sentiments exactly - thanks for that!

I still think it is too early for the government to be saying that the current battery electric cars, are the best overall path.
Such a selection of a winner, stifles innovation.

 

[phoenix2020]

I still think it is too early for the government to be saying that the current battery electric cars, are the best overall path.
Such a selection of a winner, stifles innovation.

It's about competitive advantage and national economic security.

By your logic, if the government shouldn't invest in something unless that 'something' has already completely proven itself, then the government won't ever invest in anything, and the nations whose governments do invest will establish control over those industry sectors. This is actually something the United States was very concerned about in the 1940s, 1950s, 1960s: identify what are the industries that will dominate economic output in the future, then invest heavily, both publicly and privately, into making sure we have leadership in those industries. Sometime around the 1970s we started giving up on this mindset in virtually all areas other than arms / military.

Today, electrification shows every sign that it will almost entirely supplant conventional combustion vehicles in the next couple of decades. That ship has already sailed - who wants to design an inefficiently packaged vehicle with a large non-deformable block of metal and a whole bunch of lossy transmission subassemblies and all those wear items? Who wants to employ the thousands of engineers it takes to make all that happen? No one does, which is why everyone is stopping.

So, the only question that matters, from the government-investment perspective, is that when electrification is complete, do you want American citizens to be buying American-made electric cars, or Chinese-made electric cars? Obviously China has decided electrification will win, and is investing heavily in hopes of establishing the same stranglehold on that market that they have on so many others. I personally would rather purchase a domestically engineered, domestically manufactured vehicle than one made in China, and the reason I can actually do that right now--and have, built not 20 miles away from my home--is because the government has made smart investments resulting in the creation of entities like Tesla that now generate more income than all Chinese EV makers combined. Me, I consider that a good thing, but I do recognize that some people would prefer to buy Chinese goods if it means the government doesn't get to "pick winners" as you are implying.

To each his or her own, I suppose.

 

[The Old Soul]

"$8,346.12 That’s the cost of the battery only for a 2013 Hybrid vehicle that is in my shop right now. Labor is 6.5 hours so about
$9K"

Also...

"Tesla battery replacement cost varies depending on the labor and parts needed. Typically, the most basic battery replacement in tesla costs between $13,000 and $14,000. For the Model S premium sedan, replacing a Tesla battery costs around $13,000-$20,000. Model 3 entry-level sedan and Model X premium SUV battery replacement can cost at least $13,000 and $14,000 respectively.


Also, you may have to pay around $20-200 for replacement parts like wiring and connectors. The labor charge may cost you nearly $175 per hour. Always be ready to shell out a few more dollars in additional labor charges if the repairs are complex or have any problems with the replacement."

That should give you a feel for the e-car batter replacement.

It must be a Prius 'hybrid' in your shop? It would have to be a 2013 to no longer be covered by the 8-year battery warranty. Plus, your mark-up is a little steep; here are the MSRPs of Prius battery packs:

• 2001 – 2003 Toyota Prius (first generation) – $3,649
• 2004 – 2009 Toyota Prius (second generation) – $3,939
• 2010 – 2011 Toyota Prius (third generation) – $4,080
• 2012 – 2015 Toyota Prius Liftback – $3,939
• 2012 – 2016 Toyota Prius V – $3,939
• 2012 – 2016 Toyota Prius C – $3,807

Or just buy a Car Shield policy!

Tesla battery packs are expensive, but the 8-year warranty makes it a moot point for the most part. Many Tesla drivers report driving for well over 100,000 miles with their cars. Some even claim to have driven as far as 300,000-500,000+ miles and are still using the same battery they came with from the factory!

Nothing terribly complex about a pure BEV either...most everything is plug-and-play, and the Tesla dealer can troubleshoot issues via Wi-Fi with your car parked in your driveway.