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Amnesty International Wants Bush Prosecuted for Admitted Waterboarding

OscarB63

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Screw the torture allegations.

Bush and his administration lied about Iraq. There were no weapons of mass destruction. It was all a lie, and they knew it. They knew there was nothing there. And that's what Bush and his entire administration should be held accountable for.

does that include all the democratic senators and congressmen that went along with it? or are you one of those guys that just wants Bush and his buddies to be held accountable?
 

zimmer

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Screw the torture allegations.

Bush and his administration lied about Iraq. There were no weapons of mass destruction. It was all a lie, and they knew it. They knew there was nothing there. And that's what Bush and his entire administration should be held accountable for.

Oh Christ... not this BS again.
(Think Cool Hand Luke) Suhm peeeple yew jus kain't edj-u-kate.

.
 

OscarB63

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Do you know and understand that world leaders everywhere believed Saddam Hussein to have WMD and it was Saddam's responsibility to demonstrate he didn't?

Perhaps if you repeat a lie often enough it will eventually become the truth. This is not the first time it's happened.


quick refresher for everyone... Saddam was saying he had WMDs. He had used them on the Kurds in the past. Why should Bush et al be punished for believing him?
 

Jetboogieman

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Hit a nerve?

It's all good. You don't wanna hear it. I understand that.

He's not going to be held accountable to you or me or anybody. He'll be held accountable later.

Leaders are held accountable. Congress on both sides of the aisle were duped. I don't care about them. The Bush Administration propagated the lie and beefed up the intelligence to get what they wanted.

I will say no more. I'm not gonna convince you. All will be revealed later.
 

Lord Tammerlain

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quick refresher for everyone... Saddam was saying he had WMDs. He had used them on the Kurds in the past. Why should Bush et al be punished for believing him?

The weapons inspectors were saying Iraq did not have them, that is why Bush should be punished or waterboarded
 

Goobieman

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While I won't indulge your philosophical speculations, I'll gladly answer the relevant question. Did Bush propagate a policy of torture, and thereby commit a war crime? Yes, by his own admission he did.
I understand that the tough issues are difficult for you - and so maybe it is for the best that you run away from them.
 

Eighty Deuce

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It's the same principle. It's the difference between assault and boxing. Or between rape and sex. Take your pick.

Please explain to me how you don't get the analogy. It seems like it is going over your head, and I would like to help you understand it.

An act is only torture when it is performed without the consent of the person the act is performed on. In one case, we're talking about forcible waterboarding of a victim being the war crime of torture. In another case we're talking about the consented to waterboarding of military trainees as part of a training exercise. The difference is a stark as day and night whether you want to admit it or not.

Sorry, but no it is not. These detainees are already "detained", that is held completely captive against their will. Consent is not a part of the equation at that point. You cite two examples of things folks may engage in for pleasure, and compare them to circumstances that would then make them criminal, as in rape and assault, which can cause lasting physical harm. Consent just simply is not a threshold in wartime.

Waterboarding is just as physically uncomfortable with or without consent, btw.
 

Grant

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quick refresher for everyone... Saddam was saying he had WMDs. He had used them on the Kurds in the past. Why should Bush et al be punished for believing him?

It's a serious question as to why people would deliberately lie in order to make a political point, and it has poisoned much of society today. Perhaps it went on all the time, i don't know, but the number of lies we see today, put forward as fact, is difficult to explain away. Do these people even know they are lying or are they just dead ignorant? Or does the difference matter?
 

zimmer

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It's the same principle. It's the difference between assault and boxing. Or between rape and sex. Take your pick.

Please explain to me how you don't get the analogy. It seems like it is going over your head, and I would like to help you understand it.



Yes.



An act is only torture when it is performed without the consent of the person the act is performed on. In one case, we're talking about forcible waterboarding of a victim being the war crime of torture. In another case we're talking about the consented to waterboarding of military trainees as part of a training exercise. The difference is a stark as day and night whether you want to admit it or not.
You know why we waterboard some of our troops as part of their training?

Because it is not torture.
We do not torture our troops.

.
 

Lord Tammerlain

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As for training to resist waterboarding


Do you not think the US military might use mild torture techniques to help its soldiers resist torture from the enemey?

They would not use more violent means of torture as that might of course cause permanent damage, a few broken fingers or toes might prevent the soldiers from fighting
 

digsbe

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Most of the world believed Sadam had WMDs. Many other countries helped America in the war. There was no propagating by Bush, there wasn't some evil conspiracy to get into Iraq. Many nations and leaders saw Sadam as a threat, many nations helped America in Iraq. I believe the whole "Bush lied people died" thing is Democrat propaganda. It's an unprovable accusation, and facts would support that Bush acted upon international wisdom that believed Iraq had WMDs.
 

ReverendHellh0und

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As for training to resist waterboarding


Do you not think the US military might use mild torture techniques to help its soldiers resist torture from the enemey?

They would not use more violent means of torture as that might of course cause permanent damage, a few broken fingers or toes might prevent the soldiers from fighting



I don't think any of us who have been through SERE would agree with you that it was mild. :shrug:
 

Guy Incognito

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I don't think any of us who have been through SERE would agree with you that it was mild. :shrug:

I agree that it is absurd to suggest that water-boarding as a training technique is in any way mild. It is severe, and it is this sort of training that makes our military the best in the world. But, while it might be a tortuous experience, it is something categorically different from the war crime torture, and does not negate the fact that water-boarding on unwilling victims is a war crime.
 
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Coronado

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You know why we waterboard some of our troops as part of their training?

Because it is not torture.
We do not torture our troops.

.
You know why I sleep in the garage? Because sleeping in a garage makes me a car. Only cars sleep in garages.
 

ReverendHellh0und

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I agree that it is absurd to suggest that water-boarding as a training technique is in any way mild. It is severe, and it is this sort of training that makes our military the best in the world. But this is something categorically different from torture, and does not negate the fact that water-boarding on unwilling victims is a war crime.



I just love being told 20 years later I had a "safe word".... :shrug:
 

Grant

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Perhaps all this debate might have been eliminated if the terrorists had only signed onto the Geneva Conventions.
 

Goobieman

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But, while it might be a tortuous experience, it is something categorically different from the war crime torture, and does not negate the fact that water-boarding on unwilling victims is a war crime.
And none of -that- negates that the fact that, sometimes, it is the correct course of action.
 

zimmer

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I agree that it is absurd to suggest that water-boarding as a training technique is in any way mild. It is severe, and it is this sort of training that makes our military the best in the world. But this is something categorically different from torture, and does not negate the fact that water-boarding on unwilling victims is a war crime.

This the most bizarre logic... in fact it's not logic because it's not logical.

We commit war crimes against our troops.

Phew.

Waterboarding isn't torture, that is why we can expose our troops to it.

.
 

Guy Incognito

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You know why we waterboard some of our troops as part of their training?

Because it is not torture.
We do not torture our troops.

You're right that we do not torture our troops. But you are wrong about the first part. Water-boarding, when used as a means of interrogation, is considered under United States law to be a war crime known as torture.

This the most bizarre logic... in fact it's not logic because it's not logical.

We commit war crimes against our troops.

Phew.

Waterboarding isn't torture, that is why we can expose our troops to it.

.

An act cannot be torture if it is done with consent, ergo we do not commit war crimes against our own troops.
 

OscarB63

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I just love being told 20 years later I had a "safe word".... :shrug:

I wonder what it was... I am reminded of Eurotrip and "Cooper" and his visit to Club Wandersexxxx and his experience with the safe word.
 
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