aquapub
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Any government that does not derive its authority from the consent of the people it governs is not a legitimate government. It is a prolonged hostage situation. Like all hostage situations, the thugs who run these dictatorships are temporary;
Simon W. Moon said:Does consent gained through fraud or misrespresentation count toward legitimacy?
So is that a yes or a no?aquapub said:... it doesn't add up with the facts.
Simon W. Moon said:So is that a yes or a no?
Don't give me this crap with GITMO and Abu Grhaib still on the map. Next time you decide to say something, let me know ahead of time so I can pull up my pant legs. I don't want to get them dirty when you speak.Originally Posted by aquapub
...and then we rebuild them under a system that protects basic human rights.
We are morally superior.
We are also the only ones with the capability (both physically and testically) to police the world,
Who are you talking too?Originally posted by Synch
Your post... was absolute propoganda... anyone who has cared enough to research the events you've listed knows your writing pov is extremely biased...
It's good enough to convince some people though.
Billo_Really said:Who are you talking too?
I think his propaganda is total BS.Originally posted by Synch
Obviously Aquapub...
Billo_Really said:Don't give me this crap with GITMO and Abu Grhaib still on the map. Next time you decide to say something, let me know ahead of time so I can pull up my pant legs. I don't want to get them dirty when you speak.
Synch said:Your post... was absolute propoganda... anyone who has cared enough to research the events you've listed knows your writing pov is extremely biasedQUOTE]
I backed up my arguments...the ones that weren't on CNN for the entire world to see..you...well, when making baseless assertions, I guess there's no reason to even bother, right?
I think we both know why you failed to provide a single specific on the matter.
Willoughby said:1 Well you weren't the morally superior one in the past and its very doubtful you are the one in the present. over-throwning of latin american countries using the CIA to enstall dictators, Iran-contra etc etc etc
2 please please please...we don't want the US policeing the world..please no!
Billo_Really said:Many neocon's are some of the most immoral people on the planet who are mentally unfit to be near any position of an elected official.
Billo_Really said:I think his propaganda is total BS.
Of course, the only problem with this is that my assertions are based in fact and provable, while you assert that Guantanamo Bay "abuses" somehow mean that Iraqis aren't getting basic human rights.
YOUR propaganda has been repeatedly disproved. All you have come up with against my assertions from thread to thread is lame conspiracy theories and "apples and oranges" arguments like the one above.
Willoughby said:1 ok prove them then
2 Amnesty:
aquapub said:Any government that does not derive its authority from the consent of the people it governs is not a legitimate government. It is a prolonged hostage situation. Like all hostage situations, the thugs who run these dictatorships are temporary; they cannot sustain power beyond what they can force, because the people are not with them; they were meant to be taken down by morally superior forces.
Neither Western civilization, nor America specifically has all the answers or a perfectly ideal government, but we understand liberty and the legitimacy of power derived from consent rather than from force. We are the only country in history who has bombed a nation's government (the Taliban) and immediately had planes behind them dropping food and supplies for the civilians consequently left without a government. We take out foreign threats, and then we rebuild them under a system that protects basic human rights.
Our militarily unrivaled nation stands for liberty and we use our superior forces to take down those who threaten us, and those tyrants who hold nations hostage.
We are morally superior.
We are also the only ones with the capability (both physically and testically) to police the world, and 9/11 has proved that we must be on top of rogue regimes and terror-sponsors if we are to prevent further devastation.
In addition to our inherent moral authority to remove illegitimate dictators, the removal of Saddam was further justified by the terrorist threat he had regularly chose to pose to us and to our allies. In a post-9/11 world, Democrats asked us to continue their policy of doing nothing about a bloody dictator who:
-tried to have a U.S. president assassinated.
-funded terrorism.
-Defied the U.N. for more than a decade.
-sheltered terrorists like Abbu Abbas and had loose ties to Bin Laden according to the 9/11 Commission*.
-used WMD to commit genocide, proving both that he had them and that he was willing to use them.
-aggressively sought WMD and discussed how to use them to attack Washington D.C. (see the Saddam tapes).
-routinely fired off missiles into the city streets of at a nuclear power and our ally, Israel.
-attacked Iran without provocation.
-attacked Kuwait without provocation.
-attacked Saudi Arabia.
Furthermore, the most honest and accurate account I have seen on this site of how we ended up in Iraq can be found here:
(post #2)
http://www.debatepolitics.com/showthread.php?t=8107
*From Statement #15 of the 9/11 Commission report:
"Bin Laden also explored possible cooperation with Iraq during his time in Sudan, despite his opposition to Hussein's secular regime. Bin Laden had in fact at one time sponsored anti-Saddam Islamists in Iraqi Kurdistan. The Sudanese, to protect their own ties with Iraq, reportedly persuaded Bin Laden to cease this support and arranged for contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda. A senior Iraqi intelligence officer reportedly made three visits to Sudan, finally meeting Bin Laden in 1994. Bin Laden is said to have requested space to establish training camps, as well as assistance in procuring weapons but Iraq apparently never responded."
"There have been reports that contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda also occurred after Bin Laden returned to Afghanistan..."
Prove what? That Saddam sponsored terror? That he invaded Kuwait without provocation? Name anything and I will give you any evidence you need. All these things were all over the news when they happened.
O contrare' Mr. pub, human rights abuses are still taking place in Iraq.Originally Posted by aquapub
Lame, hysterical idiocy as always, Bill.
Just because our government dares to care more about preventing mass murder than playing softball with terror suspects does not mean the constitutional system enacted in Iraq doesn't grant Iraqis with basic human rights. The two have nothing to do with each other.
Remove head from rectum, then debate.
Abuse of Prisoners Still Seen in Iraq, Report Says
From Associated Press March, 6 2006
LONDON — Detainees in Iraq are still being tortured, receiving electric shocks and beatings with plastic cables, a report by Amnesty International said today.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationw...ry?coll=la-headlines-world&ctrack=1&cset=true
G-Man said:We THINK you may be a terrorist so we'll just lock you up for x years without bringing you to trial or offering you any opportunity to prove us wrong
Arming, training and supplying Islamic fighters to wage war against the Soviets and install an Islamic govt (Taleban) in Afghanistan helped to build a system that protected human right?? Reality check required I think.
US Constitution : No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger;G-Man said:We understand liberty but promote detention without trial - surely a contradiction?
G-Man said:3) Arming, training and supplying Islamic fighters to wage war against the Soviets and install an Islamic govt (Taleban) in Afghanistan helped to build a system that protected human right?? Reality check required I think. Some of the worlds worst human rights abuses were committed here.
G-Man said:4) There are a mutliple of tyrants/dictators around the world. When they are pro-US i.e S.Arabia, Pakistan, Kazikstan (even Iraq prior to 1990s and Taleban prior to 2001) they go unchecked, when they are anti-US we take action. So much for promotion of liberty and democracy. If we really cared about that we would take action against them all.
G-Man said:5) Our President believes he should be allowed to authorise torture yet we condem Saddam etc for all the acts of torture he committed. If its so wrong why do we think its ok for us to do it? Double-Standards doesn't normally equate to superior morals.
G-Man said:6) We are the only nation with the power to police the world....only problem is the world doesn't want us to police them.
G-Man said:If your authority is not derived from the consent of the people (ie the rest of the world)
G-Man said:7) Pre 9/11 exactly what was Bush/Republicans doing about rogue regimes and terrorists? I'll tell you..they were inviting the Taleban
G-Man said:8) Do you think there were more terrorists in Iraq before or after the war? Progress, I think not.
G-Man said:9) We know he HAD WMD, heck we sold him the stuff so of course we know this, in the past. None was found after the war but lets not go back to that arguement.
G-Man said:10) He routinely fired missles at Israel we routinely fired missles at him - your point is?
G-Man said:12) He attacked Kuwait - most Iraqis believe Kuwait belongs to Iraq (although how many hundreds/thousands of years this belief goes back I don't know) - he actually had public support for this.
G-Man said:If we can't be morally superior to someone like Saddam then who the heck can we be superior to??
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