• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

American Atrocities in Iraq

Davo said:
....You consider an act of bravery a soldier who'll give his life to protect some little kid in Iraq...they consider bravery as...someone who is willing to give their life up for their religion...it's all in what your values are.
Wrong...They are NOT "giving up their life"...

They are "giving up their life" AND taking others with them...

If they wanted to die all by themselves and not affect anyone else, we'd probably all agree that no one would give a rat's ***...

But they're taking people that do NOT want to "give up their life"...

Their lives are being taken from them...
 
Davo said:
....You consider an act of bravery a soldier who'll give his life to protect some little kid in Iraq...they consider bravery as...someone who is willing to give their life up for their religion...it's all in what your values are.

SySgt showed his values and meanings. So what are your values? are Muslim suicides brave or they are cowards?
 
justone said:
SySgt showed his values and meanings. So what are your values? are Muslim suicides brave or they are cowards?

I see this as something that I cant agree or disagree with....I mean...if I say suicide bombers are brave....it would be taken the wrong way...cause my views would be interpreted as "He's one of them"...I see it as something brave to do in the sence that....it's not like you can just pick up a block of C-4 and blow yourself up at your local mall....It's something that according to most psychologists takes an incredibly strong mind...In another sence I see them as being cowards in the sence that...they kill innocent people in seconds...and they'll never pay for their actions...so as you can see it's a really gray area within me...I see it from 2 perspectives.
 
Davo said:
I see this as something that I cant agree or disagree with....I mean...if I say suicide bombers are brave....it would be taken the wrong way...cause my views would be interpreted as "He's one of them"...I see it as something brave to do in the sence that....it's not like you can just pick up a block of C-4 and blow yourself up at your local mall....It's something that according to most psychologists takes an incredibly strong mind...In another sence I see them as being cowards in the sence that...they kill innocent people in seconds...and they'll never pay for their actions...so as you can see it's a really gray area within me...I see it from 2 perspectives.

At least you are not as sick as you often look .

1. Suicide is not an act of bravery.
2. Suicide by blowing yourself in a group of playing children and dancing teenagers is not an act of bravery.

For more explanations see SySgt's post above.
 
cnredd said:
Do us all a favor...

Go on MTV Cribs and explain to them how they are using their grammer incorrectly and it should be MTV Houses...be very assertive...

Unless you're a coward...:2wave:

?

This makes as much sense as Gunny's explanation.
 
Simply put, a coward is someone that can't face their fears.

What are the fears of a suicide bomber? I honestly don't know. Gunny and the rest of you don't know either. The major difference is some of you like to make shat up.
 
justone said:
At least you are not as sick as you often look .

1. Suicide is not an act of bravery.
2. Suicide by blowing yourself in a group of playing children and dancing teenagers is not an act of bravery.

For more explanations see SySgt's post above.

Again you're not understand my reasoning...there's a difference between what YOU(as a person) consider bravery to be...and what they consider bravery to be...it's all about a point of view.
 
Davo said:
Again you're not understand my reasoning...there's a difference between what YOU(as a person) consider bravery to be...and what they consider bravery to be...it's all about a point of view.

Again:
SySgt showed his values and meanings. So what are your (as a person) values? are Muslim suicides brave or they are cowards?
 
zymurgy said:
Simply put, a coward is someone that can't face their fears.

What are the fears of a suicide bomber? I honestly don't know.

Gunny said: fear of life, = fear of EVERYTHING in life.
For more explanation try to read Gunny's post again.
 
justone said:
Gunny said: fear of life, = fear of EVERYTHING in life.
For more explanation try to read Gunny's post again.

I know what he said. I find it to be a load of rich creamery butter. Basically an opinion stated as fact.
 
Davo you can call them whatever the Sam hell you want to
but to ME and others here they will always been seen as cowards.

In the land of retarded ideas they will be seen as brave people..:roll:

I would like to ask a suicide bomber if God did ask him in person to die or if he just sent an email?
 
Going back to the first post on the thread, how can you justify your statement? It is not what we have become, it could be possible, but highly unlikely. "Iraqi Police". Do you think they enjoy us being in their country? They probably support the same statement as the locals. That was a blind shot, there might be many cases of it, but deftly sifting truthful information from Iraq can be pretty complex, considering we're really far away, and as Justone said back on page one, we haven't established an efficient police force there yet, not to say that we're going to run their country for them, but making a republic and decent government would do better for the world. There are even less crimes in some countries, because so many people are killed for such little events, such as breaking freedom of speech, making a rude expression, etc., but that doesn't mean it's right to do such things. Next thread you put down, try to get justification from that Americans and the Iraqi's both, not just the side that would say anything against us anyday for invading their territory. It's a natural instinct for many people, I'm sure it would happen in America if we were in their situation.
 
zymurgy said:
Simply put, a coward is someone that can't face their fears.

What are the fears of a suicide bomber? I honestly don't know. Gunny and the rest of you don't know either. The major difference is some of you like to make shat up.

They fear life. They fear the unstructured existence that a lifetime of mundane religious controlling organization hasn't prepared them for. They fear "infidels." They fear the dissapointments of adulthood. They are internally angry and embarrassed. We are the "infidels," yet our civilization prospers as theirs fails. Israel is a tiny little country within this region of abuse and oppression and home of the "Zions," yet their civilization prospers as their's fails.

There are professional psychological studies into this subject. Go crack a book. Relying on your "feelings" isn't getting you far. I have read four of these. I suggest number "7" definately. Of course, a bunch of psychiatrists, social experts, and terrorist experts who make this subject their life long work and write books are probably just "making shat up" too....huh?

Some Books on Religion, Violence, and Terrorism

1) The End of Days
Conflict in the Middle East has resulted in untold death, destruction and suffering. Although many have offered plausible arguments as to the social, political, and economic origins of the various conflicts, inevitably everything keeps coming back to religion: the disagreement and violence between Christians, Jews, and Muslims. This means that understanding the role of religion in these disagreements is necessary to understanding the violence itself...

2) The Holy War Idea in Western and Islamic Traditions
Holy wars, or wars waged on behalf of religion and religious ideology, are simultaneously a source of both terror and fascination for many people in the West. At one time an important aspect of Christian doctrine, the concept has been generally relegated to the sphere of fanaticism and primitive barbarism - but not everyone shares this dismissive attitude. In Islam, holy wars remain a key ingredient of both doctrine and practice. Why does this difference exist?

3) Wrath of Jonah
Religious leaders normally argue that religion is a force for good and love in the world. Yet, at the same time, we see religion regularly used for war, mass murder, and even genocide. Why does this difference exist - how can religion be claimed as a basis for peace while so many use it as a basis for terrorism?

4) Why the Nations Rage
Religious leaders normally argue that religion is a force for good and love in the world. Yet, at the same time, we see religion regularly used for war, mass murder, and even genocide. Why does this difference exist - how can religion be claimed as a basis for peace while so many use it as a basis for terrorism?

5) For God And Country: Faith and Patriotism Under Fire
Is America's 'war on terrorism' really a war against extremism and on behalf of democracy, or is it instead a war on Islam? Americans insist that their concern is political, not religious, but there are good reasons to believe that even if this is true, the rhetoric and conduct of Americans is turning the war on terrorism into a war on Islam.

6) Fighting Words: The Origins of Religious Violence
Most religions depict themselves as forces for peace and harmony; in reality, most religions have been intimately involved in some of the worst violence that humanity has ever experienced. How and why does this contradiction exist? It's true that religions preach peace overtly, but perhaps there is something going on in the background which people don't notice consciously.

7) Good Muslim, Bad Muslim America, the Cold War, and the Roots of Terror
The American government says that we are engaged in a war against terrorism, not a war against Islam. Of course, all of the terrorists being targeted happen to be Muslim, leading to the attempted distinction between 'good Muslims' and 'bad Muslims.' Upon what is this distinction based, and is it a valid way of viewing the Middle East?




Tell me, from what study do you form your opinions around? I'm guessing none. Here you have an opportunity to learn a little bit by opening your mind up to this study. Of course, it's up to you to do what you will, but I assure you that my "opinion" is based on a study and may be taken as "fact."
 
Last edited:
zymurgy said:
I know what he said. I find it to be a load of rich creamery butter. Basically an opinion stated as fact.


If you find it to be a load of rich creamery butter, you have to submit some opinion to prove your findings. Since you have never done, your are resorting to personal insults and you deserve only personal insults in reply.
This is a load for you: ''''***************@&()*******************!!#$%&)(***********'''

So far SySgt's opinion stands as a fact.
 
GySgt said:
They fear life. They fear the unstructured existence that a lifetime of mundane religious controlling organization hasn't prepared them for. They fear "infidels." They fear the dissapointments of adulthood.

There are professional psychological studies into this subject. Go crack a book. Relying on your "feelings" isn't getting you far. I have read four of these. I suggest number "7" definately. Of course, a bunch of psychiatrists, social experts, and terrorist experts who make this subject their life long work and write books are probably just "making shat up" too....huh?

As people we like to categorize everything. These pseudo-psycologists that you look to for insight may feel like they can categorize everybody but they are only right some of the time.

And with all due respect, I think we have both devoted enough attention to a semantic discussion on cowardice.
 
justone said:
If you find it to be a load of rich creamery butter, you have to submit some opinion to prove your findings. Since you have never done, your are resorting to personal insults and you deserve only personal insults in reply.
This is a load for you: ''''***************@&()*******************!!#$%&)(***********'''

So far SySgt's opinion stands as a fact.

:roll:

Treat his opinion anyway you would like.
 
zymurgy said:
These pseudo-psycologists that you look to for insight may feel like they can categorize everybody but they are only right some of the time.

And with all due respect, I think we have both devoted enough attention to a semantic discussion on cowardice.

It is not a semantic deiscussion anymore. This is discussion of your cowardness. You cowardly call it PSEODO and run away without any attemt to submit a prove. This is another load for you '' pseudo@#$%^&*()
!@#$%^&*(!@#$%^&*()#$%^&*()_@#$%^&*

It is not ''pseudo.'' and it is not too much of "psycologists" . It is a fact.
 
GySgt said:
They fear life. They fear the unstructured existence that a lifetime of mundane religious controlling organization hasn't prepared them for. They fear "infidels." They fear the dissapointments of adulthood. They are internally angry and embarrassed. We are the "infidels," yet our civilization prospers as theirs fails. Israel is a tiny little country within this region of abuse and oppression and home of the "Zions," yet their civilization prospers as their's fails.

There are professional psychological studies into this subject. Go crack a book. Relying on your "feelings" isn't getting you far. I have read four of these. I suggest number "7" definately. Of course, a bunch of psychiatrists, social experts, and terrorist experts who make this subject their life long work and write books are probably just "making shat up" too....huh?

Some Books on Religion, Violence, and Terrorism

1) The End of Days
Conflict in the Middle East has resulted in untold death, destruction and suffering. Although many have offered plausible arguments as to the social, political, and economic origins of the various conflicts, inevitably everything keeps coming back to religion: the disagreement and violence between Christians, Jews, and Muslims. This means that understanding the role of religion in these disagreements is necessary to understanding the violence itself...

2) The Holy War Idea in Western and Islamic Traditions
Holy wars, or wars waged on behalf of religion and religious ideology, are simultaneously a source of both terror and fascination for many people in the West. At one time an important aspect of Christian doctrine, the concept has been generally relegated to the sphere of fanaticism and primitive barbarism - but not everyone shares this dismissive attitude. In Islam, holy wars remain a key ingredient of both doctrine and practice. Why does this difference exist?

3) Wrath of Jonah
Religious leaders normally argue that religion is a force for good and love in the world. Yet, at the same time, we see religion regularly used for war, mass murder, and even genocide. Why does this difference exist - how can religion be claimed as a basis for peace while so many use it as a basis for terrorism?

4) Why the Nations Rage
Religious leaders normally argue that religion is a force for good and love in the world. Yet, at the same time, we see religion regularly used for war, mass murder, and even genocide. Why does this difference exist - how can religion be claimed as a basis for peace while so many use it as a basis for terrorism?

5) For God And Country: Faith and Patriotism Under Fire
Is America's 'war on terrorism' really a war against extremism and on behalf of democracy, or is it instead a war on Islam? Americans insist that their concern is political, not religious, but there are good reasons to believe that even if this is true, the rhetoric and conduct of Americans is turning the war on terrorism into a war on Islam.

6) Fighting Words: The Origins of Religious Violence
Most religions depict themselves as forces for peace and harmony; in reality, most religions have been intimately involved in some of the worst violence that humanity has ever experienced. How and why does this contradiction exist? It's true that religions preach peace overtly, but perhaps there is something going on in the background which people don't notice consciously.

7) Good Muslim, Bad Muslim America, the Cold War, and the Roots of Terror
The American government says that we are engaged in a war against terrorism, not a war against Islam. Of course, all of the terrorists being targeted happen to be Muslim, leading to the attempted distinction between 'good Muslims' and 'bad Muslims.' Upon what is this distinction based, and is it a valid way of viewing the Middle East?




Tell me, from what study do you form your opinions around? I'm guessing none. Here you have an opportunity to learn a little bit by opening your mind up to this study. Of course, it's up to you to do what you will, but I assure you that my "opinion" is based on a study and may be taken as "fact."

I told you that you were too nice.
 
Davo said:
....You consider an act of bravery a soldier who'll give his life to protect some little kid in Iraq...they consider bravery as...someone who is willing to give their life up for their religion...it's all in what your values are.

LMFAO, I consider the man who is willing to give up his life protecting an Iraqi kid to be a hero and a man with great courage and valor, but guess who he is protecting that little kid from? The very same suicide bomber that you just called brave. Protecting the child is the act of bravery, killing him is the act of cowardice. Catch a clue!!!!
 
Originally posted by akyron:
Uhh Hello?

peace activist

"the child of "a feminist mom and hippy dad", he says he signed up thinking that he would have an adventure."
" he filed for conscientious objector status and has been campaigning against the war ever since."
"Becoming a peace activist, he says, has been a "cleansing" experience."

A report is just that. Here are the facts. No color, no opinion, no agenda.
No conservative agenda, No Liberal agenda, No BS. No nonsense that you have to wade through. Its like trashmail you have to dig through to get to a bill or letter you really need to read. I almost lost a 400$ refund check today because of trashmail.
Anyway,This guy has a self admitted agenda and I am reasonably certain his perspective is colored by this agenda.

The article was happily featured on a Howard Dean website.

The one thing I like about the story is Inigo Gilmore.
A reporter that writes from both sides of the aisle cant be all bad.

The proof that Saddam worked with bin Laden

"Iraqi intelligence documents discovered in Baghdad by The Telegraph have provided the first evidence of a direct link between Osama bin Laden's al-Qa'eda terrorist network and Saddam Hussein's regime."

"Baghdad clearly sought out the meeting. The regime would have wanted it to happen in the capital as it's only there they would feel safe from surveillance by Western intelligence."
Despite your ad hom attacks, you can't take away the fact that this guy spent a year in Iraq as one of our soldiers. And I find it interesting that the report of a link between UBL and Hussein you cited is the same one the government has gone out of its way to let people know that they are not making any statements on the validity of these documents.
 
Originally posted by Cherokee:
Anyone who targets civilians on purpose are cowards!
Including the ones in American uniforms?
 
justone said:
What policy? Document the claim. Military does not have policy, military has orders. Document the orders.



Document your claim that it was wide spread.
Crime in this country is wide spread . Military does not have political parties to spread crime; crime in military is more like an exclusion. Military does not point, military has order of submitting reports through a chain of command. You are pointing your finger, please submit a report.
So far the article above only proves that there was no wide spread crime. And military can punish just for misbehavior, not even crime, because military everywhere - even in bad countries -has codes of honor.



http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/etn/gonzales/memos_dir/memo_20020125_Gonz_Bush.pdf
http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/etn/gonzales/memos_dir/dir_20020207_Bush_Det.pdf
http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/etn/gonzales/memos_dir/memo_20020801_JD_ Gonz_.pdf
http://news.findlaw.com/wp/docs/doj/bybee80102ltr.html
http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/etn/pdf/dod-memos-120202.pdf
http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/etn/gonzales/memos_dir/mem_20030416_Rum_IntTec.pdf
http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/etn/pdf/sanc- memo-091403.pdf



http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_law/etn/pdf/fbi-brief-inter-analysis-112702.pdf
http://hrw.org/reports/2004/usa0604/
http://hrw.org/reports/2004/afghanistan0304/
http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/
 
Thank you Vandree for demonstrating how one properly takes a neocon's foot and crams it into their god-damn anti-American mouth!
 
Trajan Octavian Titus said:
LMFAO, I consider the man who is willing to give up his life protecting an Iraqi kid to be a hero and a man with great courage and valor, but guess who he is protecting that little kid from? The very same suicide bomber that you just called brave. Protecting the child is the act of bravery, killing him is the act of cowardice. Catch a clue!!!!

Like I said...It's all in what your values are. You just gave me your opinion...do I care for it? Not really. Do you read my complete posts....or do you read what you want to read and then start talking? I never said "They were brave" to the full extent of the word...I said...In a sence...you'd have to have some pretty big balls to strap c4 to your chest and be more then willing to blow yourself up for someone elses cause(I say this cause most terrorists are brain washed - The Koran says nothing about murdering innocent people)...but in another sence they're cowards since they'd rather kill innocent people then face soldiers(mano a mano so to speak)...

On a second note...Do the people around you enjoy your company? Do you talk in this very same way to the people who you conversate with( I mean in real life)? I doubt it...but anyways litsen...I know you're angry...but it's ok to be angry...if there's anybody you need to talk to please let it be me...I'm use to people who dont respect other's points of views as you can see. I'll try to find some common ground with you....litsen if it makes you feel better....we can hate like I dunno.....ducks together. Either way please feel free to talk to me whenever you feel angry ok? :D

Please I know my english isnt really all that good but try to make a little sense out of them before you go pushing your 3.5 GPA opinions on me....I'm only 17. Call me a hippy or w/e but I dont see the world in Black and White like you do...I see it in like 256 different shades of gray...I dont try to see things from one persons point of view much like you do...I analyze things from the point of view others have....and mine at the same time. Do you talk to people who arent from the U.S.? Have you ever had a muslim teacher? or a Haitian one? Or a bengali teacher? When you have the points of view from more then one culture you tend to view things differently.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom