• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

American Atrocities in Iraq

Billo_Really

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
18,930
Reaction score
1,040
Location
HBCA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Is this what we have become? Is this what is acceptable? Is this crap OK? Is this what we are supporting? Do you support murdering women and children?

Iraqis killed by US troops ‘on rampage’
Hala Jaber and Tony Allen-Mills, New York

Claims of atrocities by soldiers mount


THE villagers of Abu Sifa near the Iraqi town of Balad had become used to the sound of explosions at night as American forces searched the area for suspected insurgents. But one night two weeks ago Issa Harat Khalaf heard a different sound that chilled him to the bone.

Khalaf, a 33-year-old security officer guarding oil pipelines, saw a US helicopter land near his home. American soldiers stormed out of the Chinook and advanced on a house owned by Khalaf’s brother Fayez, firing as they went.

Khalaf ran from his own house and hid in a nearby grove of trees. He saw the soldiers enter his brother’s home and then heard the sound of women and children screaming.

“Then there was a lot of machinegun fire,” he said last week. After that there was the most frightening sound of all — silence, followed by explosions as the soldiers left the house.

Once the troops were gone, Khalaf and his fellow villagers began a frantic search through the ruins of his brother’s home. Abu Sifa was about to join a lengthening list of Iraqi communities claiming to have suffered from American atrocities.

According to Iraqi police, 11 bodies were pulled from the wreckage of the house, among them four women and five children aged between six months and five years. An official police report obtained by a US reporter for Knight Ridder newspapers said: “The American forces gathered the family members in one room and executed 11 people.”

The Abu Sifa deaths on March 15 were first reported last weekend on the day that Time magazine published the results of a 10-week investigation into an incident last November when US marines killed 15 civilians in their homes in the western Iraqi town of Haditha.

The two incidents are being investigated by US authorities, but persistent eyewitness accounts of rampaging attacks by American troops are fuelling human rights activists’ concerns that Pentagon commanders are failing to curb military excesses in Iraq.

The Pentagon claims to have investigated at least 600 cases of alleged abuse by American soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan, and to have disciplined or punished 230 soldiers for improper behaviour. But a study by three New York-based human rights groups, due to be published next month, will claim that most soldiers found guilty of abuse received only “administrative” discipline such as loss of rank or pay, confinement to base or periods of extra duty.

Of the 76 courts martial that the Pentagon is believed to have initiated, only a handful are known to have resulted in jail sentences of more than a year — notably including the architects of detainee abuse at Abu Ghraib prison.

Most other cases ended with sentences of two, three or four months. “That’s not punishment, and that’s the problem,” said John Sifton of Human Rights Watch, which is compiling the study with two other groups.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2103695,00.html
 

justone

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 3, 2006
Messages
3,379
Reaction score
161
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Billo_Really said:
Is this what we have become? Is this crap OK? QUOTE]

Police? What police. Describe Iraqi police for me.. You are making them look like they are police . They are not our cops, not even close, not even a resemblance. We are far away from estublishing any kind of credible police there. We are mostly working on military to guard civilians from some Iraqi ''policemen.''

Billo you are certainly degrading. First you were funny with the Iraqi doctor, now you are degrading to a 33-year-old security officer guarding oil pipelines... The next one will an Iraqi donkey.

No, Billo, this is what YOU have become. This crap is not OK.
 

alphamale

Banned
Joined
Oct 9, 2005
Messages
1,120
Reaction score
0
Location
Southern California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
All B.S. - unsubstantiated claims from a guy who is probably making IEDs during the night and blowing up children during the day.
 

Billo_Really

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
18,930
Reaction score
1,040
Location
HBCA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Originally posted by alphamale
All B.S. - unsubstantiated claims from a guy who is probably making IEDs during the night and blowing up children during the day.
What justification do you have to draw these conclusions?
 

Billo_Really

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
18,930
Reaction score
1,040
Location
HBCA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Originally posted by justone:
Police? What police. Describe Iraqi police for me.. You are making them look like they are police . They are not our cops, not even close, not even a resemblance. We are far away from estublishing any kind of credible police there. We are mostly working on military to guard civilians from some Iraqi ''policemen.''

Billo you are certainly degrading. First you were funny with the Iraqi doctor, now you are degrading to a 33-year-old security officer guarding oil pipelines... The next one will an Iraqi donkey.

No, Billo, this is what YOU have become. This crap is not OK.
Is it possible for you to put two coherent words together? This is one of many reports that we blew away a bunch of people in a mosque. The Pentagon as admitted to investigating up to 600 cases of abuse by our troops. If you think is is OK to blow people away just because you feel like it, then you got problems.
 

akyron

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 17, 2004
Messages
10,352
Reaction score
2,436
Location
Texas
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Billo_Really said:
you got problems.


Meh. Hala is a known palestinian supporter and glorifies suicide bombers repeatedly in her articles and books.

THE PALESTINIAN SUICIDE BOMBER" by Hala Jaber

She spends a lot of time with insurgents and Hezbollah. so its easy to see how her perspective can be skewed so badly.

In her Hezbollah book she paints the terrorist group as misunderstood and quite benign and she is obviously anti-Israel and anti anyone who supports Israel to the core.




It would be nice if you could get an objective source for once.
 
Joined
Nov 9, 2005
Messages
2,669
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Billo_Really said:
Is it possible for you to put two coherent words together?
That'll show him. Nice job. Just think, if you get this thread moved to the basement, you can turn this into your favorite type of posting: cursing him and making up stories about raping his mother.
 
Last edited:

American

Beer Lover Extraordinaire
Supporting Member
DP Veteran
Monthly Donator
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
90,259
Reaction score
28,876
Location
SE Virginia
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Billo_Really said:
What justification do you have to draw these conclusions?
Why don't you grow up? "Is this what we have become?" What, you think we were squeaky clean in past wars? You think this is unique to the US? I'm not justifying atrocities, I'm arguing your premise. You are naiive to say the least.
 

Calm2Chaos

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 20, 2005
Messages
3,967
Reaction score
7
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
akyron said:
Meh. Hala is a known palestinian supporter and glorifies suicide bombers repeatedly in her articles and books.

THE PALESTINIAN SUICIDE BOMBER" by Hala Jaber

She spends a lot of time with insurgents and Hezbollah. so its easy to see how her perspective can be skewed so badly.

In her Hezbollah book she paints the terrorist group as misunderstood and quite benign and she is obviously anti-Israel and anti anyone who supports Israel to the core.




It would be nice if you could get an objective source for once.


I can't wait to see how he :spin: this...
 

Billo_Really

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
18,930
Reaction score
1,040
Location
HBCA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Originally posted by akyron
Meh. Hala is a known palestinian supporter and glorifies suicide bombers repeatedly in her articles and books.

THE PALESTINIAN SUICIDE BOMBER" by Hala Jaber

She spends a lot of time with insurgents and Hezbollah. so its easy to see how her perspective can be skewed so badly.

In her Hezbollah book she paints the terrorist group as misunderstood and quite benign and she is obviously anti-Israel and anti anyone who supports Israel to the core.

It would be nice if you could get an objective source for once.
Well, you certainly won't get it from reporters embedded in marine units. They say anything bad, their either banned like Heraldo Rivera or their shot in friendly fire. If the Pentagon confirms her assertions, how much more objective do you want? It's not going to get any truer hearing it from a reader pre-approved source.

Here you go. A former marine who served in Iraq from April 2003 to March of 2004.

"When IEDs [Improvised Explosive Devices] would go off by the side of the road, the instructions were - or the practice was - to basically shoot up the landscape, anything that moved. And that kind of thing would happen a lot." So innocent people were killed? "It happened, yes."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1741942,00.html
 

Billo_Really

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
18,930
Reaction score
1,040
Location
HBCA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Originally posted by Calm2Chaos
I can't wait to see how he this...
Haven't you learned by now I don't spin. I get too dizzy!
 

cherokee

Devil Dog
Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 26, 2005
Messages
7,486
Reaction score
789
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Billo_Really said:
It's not just my crusade.


You take 1/2 truths and try to spin them as fact. OR you take the words or actions of one person and spin it as the entire military!
I have seen you post how much you want our troops to be safe and yet you always post against them…why is that?
 

alphamale

Banned
Joined
Oct 9, 2005
Messages
1,120
Reaction score
0
Location
Southern California
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Americasn soldiers take a bunch of stupid photos, and other things like that. Hence, atrocities. Appeasers someday could say the most truthful statement ever made, and nobody would believe them, because practically everything they say is hysterical B.S.
 

Billo_Really

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
18,930
Reaction score
1,040
Location
HBCA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Originally posted by Cherokee:
You take 1/2 truths and try to spin them as fact. OR you take the words or actions of one person and spin it as the entire military!
I have seen you post how much you want our troops to be safe and yet you always post against them…why is that?
Give me an example of half-a-truth that I have used. Or post where I indicated the entire military was involved in the particular atrocity I was commenting on.

It's true, I do want the troops to be safe. I also want them back here on our shores. "Always" is a pretty big word. If what you said is true, that I "always post against them", then why is it I am one of the only ones in this forum (maybe the only one), that has bothered to post the good things their doing there?
 

Billo_Really

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 6, 2005
Messages
18,930
Reaction score
1,040
Location
HBCA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Liberal
Originally posted by alphamale:
Americasn soldiers take a bunch of stupid photos, and other things like that. Hence, atrocities. Appeasers someday could say the most truthful statement ever made, and nobody would believe them, because practically everything they say is hysterical B.S.
Give me an example of "...hysterical B.S."
 

oldreliable67

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Messages
4,641
Reaction score
1,102
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Billo_Really said:
Give me an example of "...hysterical B.S."

Here is one:

say anything bad, their either banned like Heraldo Rivera

Geraldo was banned because he violated operational security by giving out unit location data on a live TV report.

Here is another: I think it was you who quoted the newspaper accounts of the recent so-called 'mosque' attack in which certain ME news outlets showed bodies lying among prayer mats, etc. Here is another view of that attack:

"We didn't find a mosque," says the Iraqi special forces commander, striking deep at the heart of the allegations against his men. "We only killed men who were armed and firing at us." Though the building has been through several incarnations in past years—from political party branch under Saddam to an office space to what is said to have been a school—local leaders claim it is now a hussaniyah, a Shi'ite mosque,and should have had protected status.

The young officer says his men didn't find prayer mats or books or any of the usual elements of an Islamic house of worship. Instead, he says, they found the instruments of torture: drills, electrical wires, and other "tools." "It is a place used by a political party," he says, having sustained intense, unrelenting fire from houses facing the building on three sides as his men entered. "Other rooms were offices." Based on the evidence his men retrieved—including weapons caches and bomb-making materials—it's clear the site was used by an armed militia, he maintains, with some of its members linked to security forces, and others to a notorious kidnapping ring.
...
The [hostage] freed [by this operation], the marks of his bondage still on his wrists, tells the same story as his rescuers. "It's not a prayer place," he says. Well,who controlled it then, was it a militia? "I can't answer because I'm scared. It's not just me, all Iraqis are scared [of the militia]," he timidly replies.
...
As an American officer conceded, echoing many before over the past three years, in the propaganda game "the enemy information operations machine is very sophisticated, they're constantly beating us to the punch". An American soldier who advised on the scene during the raid pressed the same point. "We could have come out with our side straight away too, but first it has to go up the chain and then come back down," he says. Such a careful, drawn-out process, it seems, may be a luxury the military can ill afford.

Note that this appeared in Time magazine, a considerably less biased source than many you have offered.
 
Joined
Mar 6, 2006
Messages
187
Reaction score
0
Location
Among the White US Terrorists
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Strange, people want to spin Atrocities in Iraq as something else; calling it collateral damadge or an accident, the truth is--you may buy it or don't care, but the Iraqi's aren't buying the accident excuse--it's fueling them.

I can guarantee you; in 5-10 years, some soldiers are going to tell you stories that will tell of the atrocities they saw or did--they will be out of the military, no more Bush, no more incentive/orders for them to shut the mouths. Then we will see how you post in defense. I bet you will call them liars in the future and heroes of the present--you hypocrites.
 

cnredd

Major General Big Lug
DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 5, 2005
Messages
8,682
Reaction score
262
Location
Philadelphia,PA
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Conservative
beyondtherim55008@yahoo.c said:
Strange, people want to spin Atrocities in Iraq as something else; calling it collateral damadge or an accident, the truth is--you may buy it or don't care, but the Iraqi's aren't buying the accident excuse--it's fueling them.

I can guarantee you; in 5-10 years, some soldiers are going to tell you stories that will tell of the atrocities they saw or did--they will be out of the military, no more Bush, no more incentive/orders for them to shut the mouths. Then we will see how you post in defense. I bet you will call them liars in the future and heroes of the present--you hypocrites.
Nice...

We're "hypocrites" now because you speculate on something which you perceive will happen sometime in the future...:roll:
 

oldreliable67

DP Veteran
Joined
Oct 3, 2005
Messages
4,641
Reaction score
1,102
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Strange, people want to spin Atrocities in Iraq as something else; calling it collateral damadge or an accident, the truth is--you may buy it or don't care, but the Iraqi's aren't buying the accident excuse--it's fueling them.

No. Most people want to look at events factually, not the way they are 'spun' and 'staged' or otherwise portrayed by those with an agenda. That agenda is predominately to do exactly as you describe: 'fuel' the Iraq's against not only the US, but more and more, against the other factions in Iraq.

Are there atrocities occuring at the hands of Americans? No doubt. But we do make serious attempts to avoid them and when they do occur, to identify, arrest and punish those guilty of such.
 

MSgt

Stabler Genius
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
26,272
Reaction score
11,626
Location
Highlands Ranch, CO
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
beyondtherim55008@yahoo.c said:
Strange, people want to spin Atrocities in Iraq as something else; calling it collateral damadge or an accident, the truth is--you may buy it or don't care, but the Iraqi's aren't buying the accident excuse--it's fueling them.

I can guarantee you; in 5-10 years, some soldiers are going to tell you stories that will tell of the atrocities they saw or did--they will be out of the military, no more Bush, no more incentive/orders for them to shut the mouths. Then we will see how you post in defense. I bet you will call them liars in the future and heroes of the present--you hypocrites.


Kleenex, my friend, kleenex.

"Collateral damage" is a side affect experienced in the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, the Spanish American War, World War I, World War II, Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, Afghanistan, Iraq, and all of the smaller things in between.

"Attrocities" are those actions that are purposefully and willfully conducted. Individual attrocities will always be a factor here and there in every civilization. This is why we have "Laws of War" and "Rules of Engagements." This is also why we have Court Martials. The intent of this thread is to elevate American intentions and actions to the same playing field as our enemies. This in impossible task without employing the tactic of "spin."

- Hitler rolled through Europe sluaghtering anyone that was not his vision of a perfect society (Jews, Gays, Gypsies, etc.)

- Saddam slaughtered Kurds out of revenge for the embarrassment handed to him by Iran.

These are "attrocities." Did we attack Saddam because he waas a Muslim? Did we attack Afghanistan because they are Muslim? Our motives have nothing to do with passed down bigotries or hatreds. Our tactics are of the most humane in history - Prove they are not. Our precision bombing and billions of dollars spent on other equipment and personel training prove our capacity to safeguard civillians and structures where ever possible. (And no Billo, Fallujah was not possible nor was your hospital within). We have the weapons to annihilate any population we want, yet we refrain from using them. Instead, we send our troops to fight wi5th the intent that we are only targetting the enemy within the crowd. Sometimes the crowd becomes "collateral damage."
 
Joined
Mar 6, 2006
Messages
187
Reaction score
0
Location
Among the White US Terrorists
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Your are so right, the OKC bombing was just "Collateral damage." Tell me what was Kent? Ruby Ridge? Waco? Who made you God of definitions?

Our precision bombing and billions of dollars spent on other equipment and personel training prove our capacity to safeguard civillians and structures where ever possible

LOL. Who paid you to say that? Boeing? Hughes?

Kleenex, my friend, kleenex.

Your saying those soldiers who came back from Nam admitting of their atrocities who were never tried in court makes us a righteous and good nation?

Did we attack Saddam because he waas a Muslim? Did we attack Afghanistan because they are Muslim?

Yes, Yes. A threat to Israel means a threat to US. I would like to go after China and Korea, they have killed masses of their own people. Why haven't we? Because they're stronger? So, we attack the weaker first huh? Consistency is USA policy? Nope.

Saddam slaughtered Kurds out of revenge for the embarrassment handed to him by Iran.
Oh yes, Turkey the great friend of NATO just loves the Kurds, no violence have they shown toward the Kurds.
 

Davo

Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2006
Messages
143
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Yes, Yes. A threat to Israel means a threat to US. I would like to go after China and Korea, they have killed masses of their own people. Why haven't we? Because they're stronger? So, we attack the weaker first huh? Consistency is USA policy? Nope.

I'm starting to think you're a muslim? Are you? A threat to Israel is a threat to the entire world...it could easily spark off WWIII....think about it...Middle East nations decide they're not going to take it, make a coalition of the more then willing(to blow themselves up)...go into Israel slaughter half a million jews within the first ten days....No world in it's right mind would stand by as this happens a second time...what happens then? Bush forms another coalition but must rely on help from the world....tries to fend off the ME nations....sparking a war between (and this is only a guess) :

Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon, Iran, Afghanistan, Palestine( and every other country with resentment towards Israel)

And....

U.S., G.B., Canada, France (and every other nation bending over to Bush's demands).

Now you tell me how an attack on Israel isnt a threat.
 

MSgt

Stabler Genius
DP Veteran
Joined
Jun 10, 2005
Messages
26,272
Reaction score
11,626
Location
Highlands Ranch, CO
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
beyondtherim55008@yahoo.c said:
Your are so right, the OKC bombing was just "Collateral damage." Tell me what was Kent? Ruby Ridge? Waco? Who made you God of definitions?



LOL. Who paid you to say that? Boeing? Hughes?



Your saying those soldiers who came back from Nam admitting of their atrocities who were never tried in court makes us a righteous and good nation?



Yes, Yes. A threat to Israel means a threat to US. I would like to go after China and Korea, they have killed masses of their own people. Why haven't we? Because they're stronger? So, we attack the weaker first huh? Consistency is USA policy? Nope.

Oh yes, Turkey the great friend of NATO just loves the Kurds, no violence have they shown toward the Kurds.


And this is why you lack understanding of the occurrences around the world. If you believe that we attacked Iraq and Afghanistan because they are "Muslim," then you are falling in line with all those people in the Middle East who hang on every word vomited forth from perverted Clerics and from the likes of Bin Laden.

China and Korea are not a threat to us. When's the last time a fundamental Chinese or Korean organization destroyed a mass of American civillians? When was the last time they bombed an American embassy in a country outside of the Middle East?

One region is a threat. The other two are not.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom