America`s Involvment With Israel

[mikeangelo]

what stimulates the americans to care?

is it historical baggage.

people kill each other all over the world.

tribes are fighting in Africa

tribes are fighting each other throughout the middle east.

how is that an American problem exactly?

how does this effect American interests?

America is not doing well economically. How much longer will america play santa claus for the rest of the planet at the cost of looking after its own people man!

America needs to disengage and let natural competition laws of nature take their own course.

The american government is not responsible for the Israelis or anyone else for that matter. Israeli government is responsible for the israeli people. I just wish the babies would take some of their own responsibility and stop coming crying to the US everytime they can't fix their toy. America does not baby sit.

 

[superskippy]

To illustrate one of the reasons American helps us, it is my sad duty to bring this news.

Palestinian terrorists have gunned down 3 Israelis in the West Bank and wounded 2 others. This comes after the Al-Aqsa terrorist group decided to end their ceisefire earlier this month.

 

[Tashah]

Palestinian terrorists have gunned down 3 Israelis in the West Bank and wounded 2 others. This comes after the Al-Aqsa terrorist group decided to end their ceisefire earlier this month.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1018/p06s02-wome.html

 

[robin]

Right now I'm not feeling anymore favourably disposed towards Israeli militants than I am towards Palestinian militants.

I watched a programme last night made by a BBC camera crew in Palestine.
A British cameraman was shot in the neck by the Israelis & died instantly as the film crew tried to leave a Palestinian house whilst waving a white flag. There was also a scene showing a 14 year old Palestinian boy brought into the hospital operating theatre still conscious but bleeding badly after being shot becuase he was throwing stones at an armoured Israeli bulldozer that was mowing it's way through Palestinian houses. He died six hours later.

The whole area has been a fermentation vessel for terrorists for decades now & we have the insane tribalism of the zionists & the events of the late 40's to thank for that.
If you take sides in a dispute you can expect 5hit from the other side.
America's taking of sides was one reason for 911.
No right minded person condones suicide bombings but that's is the chosen weapon for the extremists becuase simply because they don't have the tanks, & high tech equipment the Israelis have, as supplied in part by the Americans.

When the IRA violence was at it's height in the 70's & the IRA were setting off indiscriminate bombs in England that killed many civilians, the British didn't go bombing or shelling areas of Ireland where terrorists were, because of the wish to avoid the inevitable resultant collateral damage & casualties.
This is something that doesn't seem to bother the Israelis because they they do do this & in the process they sometimes even flatten appartment blocks etc etc. Very clumsy, heavy handed, sometimes indiscriminate & also very good at keeping the cycle of hatred going.

The programme revealed how dire the plight of the average Palestinian kid is living in bombed out slums. Unless it made less dire & unless the iron fist of Israel is softened, then there will always be the attraction for Palestinian youths to become indoctrinated into the ranks of the terrorists.
It seems the Israelis are doing a good job of swelling the ranks of youngsters willing to join Hamas.

 

[Tashah]

This is something that doesn't seem to bother the Israelis. When they do this they seem to flatten appartment blocks etc etc. Very clumsy, heavy handed sometimes indiscriminate & also very good at keeping the cycle of hatred going.

Israel has not bulldozed anything recently except the settlements in Gaza. All you do vis-a-vis Israel at DP is reguritate the same old tired rhetoric of yesteryear. Frankly robin, you're falling further and further behind the curve of current events.

The plight of the average Palestinian kid living in bombed out slums is dire indeed. Unless it made less dire then there will always be the attraction for them to become indoctrinated into the ranks of the terrorists.

Well robin, perhaps your Britain would welcome in more Palestinians... but I doubt it. Their reputation doth preceeds them. Perhaps that's why none of the Arab countries invite them in either. Besides that, what would you know of conditions inside Gaza or the West Bank? Last time I checked, the UK was many time zones removed from such intimate knowledge. If you really want to play the part of a concerned and noble humanitarian, simply get off your complaining duff and move to Ramallah.

Why is it that every time I read one of your posts I get the familiar feeling that I have wasted another minute of my life?

 

[robin]

Israel has not bulldozed anything recently except the settlements in Gaza. All you do vis-a-vis Israel at DP is reguritate the same old tired rhetoric of yesteryear. Frankly robin, you're falling further and further behind the curve of current events.

Well robin, perhaps your Britain would welcome in more Palestinians... but I doubt it. Their reputation doth preceeds them. Perhaps that's why none of the Arab countries invite them in either. Besides that, what would you know of conditions inside Gaza or the West Bank? Last time I checked, the UK was many time zones removed from such intimate knowledge. If you really want to play the part of a concerned and noble humanitarian, simply get off your complaining duff and move to Ramallah.

Why is it that every time I read one of your posts I get the familiar feeling that I have wasted another minute of my life?

You a moderator !!!!!

"perhaps your Britain would welcome in more Palestinians"...
Your Britain this... your Britain that.. how childish :lol:
Do you think I have the tribalistic streak in me that you have in you ?
Question 1) So are you saying the film was all propaganda not just some impartial European journalists taking in events & you think the Israelis suddenly don’t behave like that anymore ?
Care to waste a minute answering that ???
Everything is fine now then is it. Israel has drawn out of Gaza so old crimes from as long ago as... uh ooh lets see.... a couple of years ago can be forgotten.
You get to have one of your loved ones shot or your home bulldozed & a couple of years & everything is OK yes ?
So the Palestinians are supposed to have a memory span of just two years, whereas yours conveniently lasts 2,000 years when it comes land being ethnically cleansed for you because of your tribalistic religious streak or whatever it is. I must say it seems extra ordinary for you, a scientist, not to be able to rise above such primitive nonsense.
Then there's the States... also conveniently ethnically cleansed for you only in this case cleansed of North American Indians for you to have your American home there.
Question 2) Since you think it’s Ok for Israelis from all over the world either because of some incredibly tenuous genetic link or because they follow one particular tribalistic brand of religious gobblydy gook (Judaism) to forcibly settle on land that was peacefully lived on by Palestinians for centuries, do you therefore think the North Americans should get the land back your other home in American is built on ?
... only they were on it a lot more recently that the Israelis were in Israel. Also isn't being obsessed with ones genetic line & treating such as brethren & others as something lesser or not of the tribe as opposed to a brotherhood of man, tantamount to a form of racism ?

Here’s some “tired old rhetoric for you.”
Incidently that’s about all you are able to call it as a pathetic means to try & undermine it, because it’s so painfully true…….

History teaches that For 2,000 years there was no such conflict between Jews and Muslims in Palestine The land of Palestine was inhabited by Palestinian Arabs. In 1850 these consisted of approximately 400,000 Muslims, 75,000 Christians, and 25,000 Jews. For centuries these groups had lived in harmony: 80 percent Muslim, 15 percent Christian, 5 percent Jewish. But then in the late 1800s a group in Europe decided to colonize this land.

Known as "Zionists," this group consisted of an extremist minority of the world Jewish population. They wanted to create a Jewish homeland, and at first considered locations in Africa and South America, before finally settling on Palestine for their colony At first this immigration created no problems. However, as more and more Zionists immigrated to Palestine.... many with the express wish of taking over the land for an exclusively Jewish state ....the indigenous population became increasingly alarmed. Eventually, there was fighting between the two groups, with escalating waves of violence. Finally, in 1947 the United Nations decided to intervene.

However, rather than adhering to the democratic principle espoused decades earlier by Woodrow Wilson of "self-determination of peoples," in which the people themselves create their own state and system of government, the UN chose to revert to the medieval strategy whereby an outside power arbitrarily divides up other people’s land Under considerable pressure from high-placed American Zionists, the UN decided to give away 55 percent of Palestine to a Jewish state — despite the fact that this group represented only about 30 percent of the total population, and owned under 7 percent of the land When the inevitable war broke out the outcome was never in doubt, according to U.S. intelligence reports from the time.

The Zionist army consisted of over 90,000 European-trained soldiers and possessed modern weaponry, including up-to-date fighter and bomber airplanes. The Arab forces, very much a third-world army, consisted of approximately 30,000 ill-equipped, poorly trained men By the end of the 1948 war the Jewish state — having now declared itself "Israel" — had conquered 78 percent of Palestine — far more than that proposed even by the very generous UN partition plan. And three-quarters of a million Palestinians had been made refugees. Over 400 towns and villages had been destroyed, and a new map was being drawn up, in which every city, river and hillock would receive a new, Hebrew name.
All vestiges of the Palestinian culture were to be erased. In fact, for many decades Israel — and the US, following its lead — denied the very existence of this population. Golda Meir once said, in fact: "There is no such thing as a Palestinian." In 1967, Israel conquered still more land. Following the Six Day War, in which Israeli forces launched a highly successful, Pearl Harbor-like surprise attack on Egypt, Israel occupied the additional 22 percent of Palestine that had eluded it in 1948 — the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. It also occupied parts of Egypt (which since were returned) and Syria (which remain under occupation). You wanna talk about deaths? :

122 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 686 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.

3,645 Palestinians and 1,058 Israelis have been killed since September 29, 2000.

7,307 Israelis and 28,980 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000.

The U.S. gives $15,139,178 per day to the Israeli government and military and $232,290 per day to Palestinian NGO’s.

64 UN Resolutions against Israel:

UN Resolutions Against Israel, 1955-1992
Resolution 106: "...‘condemns’ Israel for Gaza raid"
Resolution 111: "...‘condemns’ Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people"
Resolution 127: "...‘recommends’ Israel suspend its ‘no-man’s zone’ in Jerusalem"
Resolution 162: "...‘urges’ Israel to comply with UN decisions"
Resolution 171: "...determines flagrant violations’ by Israel in its attack on Syria"
Resolution 228: "...‘censures’ Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control"
Resolution 237: "...‘urges’ Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees"
Resolution 248: "...‘condemns’ Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan"
Resolution 250: "...‘calls’ on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem"
Resolution 251: "...‘deeply deplores’ Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250"
Resolution 252: "...‘declares invalid’ Israel’s acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital"
Resolution 256: "...‘condemns’ Israeli raids on Jordan as ‘flagrant violation"
Resolution 259: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation"

 

[robin]

Cont'd
Resolution 262: "...‘condemns’ Israel for attack on Beirut airport"
Resolution 265: "...‘condemns’ Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan"
Resolution 267: "...‘censures’ Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem"
Resolution 270: "...‘condemns’ Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon"
Resolution 271: "...‘condemns’ Israel’s failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem"
Resolution 279: "...‘demands’ withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon"
Resolution 280: "....‘condemns’ Israeli’s attacks against Lebanon"
Resolution 285: "...‘demands’ immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon"
Resolution 298: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s changing of the status of Jerusalem"
Resolution 313: "...‘demands’ that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon"
Resolution 316: "...‘condemns’ Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon"
Resolution 317: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon"
Resolution 332: "...‘condemns’ Israel’s repeated attacks against Lebanon"
Resolution 337: "...‘condemns’ Israel for violating Lebanon’s sovereignty"
Resolution 347: "...‘condemns’ Israeli attacks on Lebanon"
Resolution 425: "...‘calls’ on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
Resolution 427: "...‘calls’ on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon’
Resolution 444: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces"
Resolution 446: "...‘determines’ that Israeli settlements are a ‘serious obstruction’ to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
Resolution 450: "...‘calls’ on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon"
Resolution 452: "...‘calls’ on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories"
Resolution 465: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s settlements and asks all member states not to assist Israel’s settlements program"
Resolution 467: "...‘strongly deplores’ Israel’s military intervention in Lebanon"
Resolution 468: "...‘calls’ on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return"
Resolution 469: "...‘strongly deplores’ Israel’s failure to observe the council’s order not to deport Palestinians"
Resolution 471: "...‘expresses deep concern’ at Israel’s failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
Resolution 476: "...‘reiterates’ that Israel’s claims to Jerusalem are ‘null and void’
Resolution 478: "...‘censures (Israel) in the strongest terms’ for its claim to Jerusalem in its ‘Basic Law’
Resolution 484: "...‘declares it imperative’ that Israel re-admit two deported Palestinian mayors"
Resolution 487: "...‘strongly condemns’ Israel for its attack on Iraq’s nuclear facility"
Resolution 497: "...‘decides’ that Israel’s annexation of Syria’s Golan Heights is ‘null and void’ and demands that Israel rescind its decision forthwith"
Resolution 498: "...‘calls’ on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon"
Resolution 501: "...‘calls’ on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops"
Resolution 509: "...‘demands’ that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon"
Resolution 515: "...‘demands’ that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and allow food supplies to be brought in"
Resolution 517: "...‘censures’ Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
Resolution 518: "...‘demands’ that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon"
Resolution 520: "...‘condemns’ Israel’s attack into West Beirut"
Resolution 573: "...‘condemns’ Israel ‘vigorously’ for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO headquarters
Resolution 587: "...‘takes note’ of previous calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw"
Resolution 592: "...‘strongly deplores’ the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops"
Resolution 605: "...‘strongly deplores’ Israel’s policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians
Resolution 607: "...‘calls’ on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention
Resolution 608: "...‘deeply regrets’ that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians"
Resolution 636: "...‘deeply regrets’ Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians
Resolution 641: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s continuing deportation of Palestinians
Resolution 672: "...‘condemns’ Israel for violence against Palestinians at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount
Resolution 673: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s refusal to cooperate with the United Nations
Resolution 681: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s resumption of the deportation of Palestinians
Resolution 694: "...‘deplores’ Israel’s deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return
Resolution 726: "...‘strongly condemns’ Israel’s deportation of Palestinians
Resolution 799: "...‘strongly condemns’ Israel’s deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for their immediate return.

 

[superskippy]

I watched a programme last night made by a BBC camera crew in Palestine.
A British cameraman was shot in the neck by the Israelis & died instantly as the film crew tried to leave a Palestinian house whilst waving a white flag. There was also a scene showing a 14 year old Palestinian boy brought into the hospital operating theatre still conscious but bleeding badly after being shot becuase he was throwing stones at an armoured Israeli bulldozer that was mowing it's way through Palestinian houses. He died six hours later.

I've seen it as well and you seem to have conveniantly forgotten the details. He went out of a house in a Palestinian town in the DEAD OF NIGHT, whilst it was under a curfew, expected them to see the white flag in the pitch dark as he approached an Israeli Armored vehicle.

I've seen the whole documentary, dont try and pull this stuff.

 

[superskippy]

The Zionist army consisted of over 90,000 European-trained soldiers and possessed modern weaponry, including up-to-date fighter and bomber airplanes. The Arab forces, very much a third-world army, consisted of approximately 30,000 ill-equipped, poorly trained men By the end of the 1948 war the Jewish state — having now declared itself "Israel" — had conquered 78 percent of Palestine — far more than that proposed even by the very generous UN partition plan. And three-quarters of a million Palestinians had been made refugees. Over 400 towns and villages had been destroyed, and a new map was being drawn up, in which every city, river and hillock would receive a new, Hebrew name.
All vestiges of the Palestinian culture were to be erased. In fact, for many decades Israel — and the US, following its lead — denied the very existence of this population. Golda Meir once said, in fact: "There is no such thing as a Palestinian." In 1967, Israel conquered still more land. Following the Six Day War, in which Israeli forces launched a highly successful, Pearl Harbor-like surprise attack on Egypt, Israel occupied the additional 22 percent of Palestine that had eluded it in 1948 — the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. It also occupied parts of Egypt (which since were returned) and Syria (which remain under occupation). You wanna talk about deaths? :

Why are you bringing this up again? Ya know the whole 90,000 Europeon Zionest soldiers, and 30,000 Illequipped Arab soldiers crap.

You said the same thing before Topic "Israel" when you posted the exact same thing read posts 9-15 topic, It's on page 8 of the Poll Page.

Here even better I'll post a link http://www.debatepolitics.com/showthread.php?t=2567

You copy and pasted posts 5 and 6 right to this thread. I have amply responded to it before and will not do so again. Instead I'll do what you do and copy and paste my response!


For one thing of that 55%, 30% of it was the Negev desert a barren wasteland, the rest was areas where our population overwhelmed the Arab populations such as Tel'Aviv and Haifa and the land surrounding it extending to the Arab controlled Galilee. The Arabs got the better deal, they got all the west bank and more, the had the land around Jerusalem, they had Gaza and the land extending east of it, they had the Galilee and the Sea of Galilee, very fertile land with control of the Jordan river. The Arabs got the better deal.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA You honestly think that was our army! We had a total of 400 full time members of the Haganah when the war broke out! None of which had any European training! We learned over time to excel at the covert irregular warfare that we and the Arabs had waged. 70,000? Your nut's we had a total of 40,000 people in our "army" which was a mix of Irgun, Lechi, Haganah, Zahal (After the 4 week truce), Stern Group, and Palmach. We had a total of 2 heavy artillery pieces, 3 British planes with 2 pilots, no tank's our only Armour was home made armored cars which were basically trucks with steel plates welded on. We had a mix of WW1 era rifles and WW2 era rifles, around 600 automatic weapons with limited ammunition for them, we had enough rounds for our rifles but that was it, we had 100 mortars, and maybe 20 machine guns. We had to buy old guns and ammunition from the Czechs, cargo planes from the US, and more weapons from Greece and Czechoslovakia. Our army was pitiful to say the least. We had no training in real warfare and had to learn from experience. The Arabs had planes, artillery, tanks, Armour, AMMUNITION, and they brought to the field a 20,000 man advantage. The Arab armies were British equipped, British trained, and Jordan had an alliance with England who basically gave birth to the Arab legion, a crack force with numerous tanks, Armour, and most of all well trained men.

Don't bring me this crap about the Arab's inferiority to our troops, we managed to hold the day during the first half of the war, and during the Truce the Arab's bickered over land and support for the war from various allies. We spent our time reorganizing our army into the Zahal, got guns, Armour, artillery, planes, and ammunition. During the 2nd half we fought back and smashed the Arab forces everywhere save Latrun.


The Arab's provoked war in 1967, Nasser FORCED the removal of the UN peacekeeping army, funny thing isn't it? The UN up and left leaving bunkers and defenses in place without even going to the GENERAL ASSEMBLY. They left at Nasser's behest and he moved in a quarter of a million men into the Sinai and then onto our borders. He started moving planes and tanks onto the border. Syrian raids intensified and culminated on the attack on a string of Kibbutz, and a jet strike into Israel. With Egypt massing on our borders we struck and drove their army into the Suez, and in the process we gained land to use as a security zone and buffer between us and them. Guess what, the Egyptians did not raise a finger against us until we withdrew, then the attacked us in 1973. Jordan invaded us forcing us to counter attack and seize the West Bank, the Jordanians never struck us again.

How quaint you would leave out how many combatants we have killed 1,238, and how many the Palestinians have killed 126, how many civilians have the Palestinians killed? 1,178, our civilian toll is hard to mark because they don't fight in uniforms, they look like civilians save for the fact they have guns or hidden bombs. Most likely a good 40% of the civilian dead from our side are actually combatants, from my experience at a raid into Khan Yunious, there were multitudes of rioters and no uniformed people yet we were hit by rockets and bullets, we tried to find people who were firing and when we thought we had a target we fired, taking this into account when tallying up civilian dead is that many people marked dead as civilians are most likely combatants. Also it shows that most of the civilian dead are not intentional. The Children in Palestine play more of a role of soldier than you think want some pictures? These are the Kid's we face.

http://www.israel-wat.com/show6.jpg
http://www.israel-wat.com/show8.jpg
http://www.israel-wat.com/show1.jpg
http://www.israel-wat.com/show10.jpg
http://www.israel-wat.com/show11.jpg
http://www.israel-wat.com/show7.jpg
http://www.israel-wat.com/show9.jpg
http://www.israel-wat.com/show2.jpg
http://www.israel-wat.com/show3.jpg
http://www.israel-wat.com/show4.jpg
http://www.israel-wat.com/show5.jpg



http://www.israel-wat.com/28eng.jpg
http://www.israel-wat.com/q6b.jpg
http://www.israel-wat.com/q6c.jpg
http://www.israel-wat.com/q6m.jpg
http://www.israel-wat.com/q6d.jpg
http://www.israel-wat.com/q6e.jpg
http://www.israel-wat.com/q6o.jpg
http://www.israel-wat.com/q6f.jpg
http://www.israel-wat.com/q6g.jpg
http://www.israel-wat.com/q6h.jpg
http://www.israel-wat.com/q6i.jpg
http://www.israel-wat.com/q6r.jpg
http://www.israel-wat.com/q6s.jpg
http://www.israel-wat.com/q6t.jpg
http://www.israel-wat.com/woman1.jpg
http://www.israel-wat.com/woman2.jpg

Also the UN can quite frankly shove it, ever since partition it has been a political weapon against Israel, what did the UN do when Egypt evicted the security force? Nothing. What did it do when the Arabs invaded Israel? Nothing. What did it do when the Arab raids into Israel intensified? Nothing. What does it do when we counter attack? Condemn. What does it do when we fight back? Condemn. What does it do when we start winning and after the Arab invasions? Condemn. The UN resolutions are a roll of crap we use them for toilet paper, but even as that it is not that good to be honest.

Some great quotes from Arab leaders on the day's preceding the 6 day war.

An enthusiastic echo was heard May 20 from Syrian Defense Minister Hafez Assad:

Our forces are now entirely ready not only to repulse the aggression, but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united....I, as a military man, believe that the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation.

And what of Nasser? "Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight," he said on May 27. The following day, he added: "We will not accept any...coexistence with Israel...Today the issue is not the establishment of peace between the Arab states and Israel....The war with Israel is in effect since 1948."

Nasser then announced:

The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel...to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not declarations.[/i]

I can get Arab News Reel's if you want?


----------------------------------------------------------------

Post orginal material not copy and pasted rhetoric which I and other people have refuted before.

 

[cnredd]

No right minded person condones suicide bombings but...

That's the beginning of every defense of terrorism...

"Let me throw out my little disclaimer before I trash the ones fighting against it"...:roll:

 

[robin]

the rest was areas where our population overwhelmed the Arab populations

Our our our our our our our our our our.... ten times in your post.
That's the trouble the 'our' of tribalism.
Our this, our that.
Not a brotherhood of man, but a brotherhood of Jews.
Just like the brotherhood of Muslims.
They think of their fellow Muslims as above & beyond & apart from their fellow humans.
The Nazi threat was over with in 45.
Why couldn’t you just go about your business of owning the banks & running business’s wherever you were ?
Instead, you took up arms against the Arabs/Palestinians becuase of your tribalism.
Question 3) Tell me... who started the Arab Israeli conflict. The Arabs or the Jews ?
The people had lived there in peace & you lot come along behaved like Germans in the Sudeten land.
Hitler felt he had the right to grab/colonise/overwhelm the Czechs in the Sudeten land, just because there were some of his German tribe already there. Similarly, you thought you could just march into Palestine & multiply the Israeli tribe numbers 10 or 20 fold with a massive influx of Jews.

Question 4) Do you not think it unreasonable for the people that had lived in Palestine for centuries but happened not to be in your tribal group, to be somewhat upset by zionist tribal expansionism ?

I'm sure the first thing any intelligent aliens looking down on the earth would spot is... Oh dear me, homosapiens still haven't managed to overcome their tribalistic herding instincts. What stupid little creatures.

The path of tribalism is divergent & divisive.

 

[superskippy]

I'll ask again for you to stop copy and pasting, make a real attempt at answering.


Our our our our our our our our our our.... ten times in your post.
That's the trouble the 'our' of tribalism.
Our this, our that.
Not a brotherhood of man, but a brotherhood of Jews.
Just like the brotherhood of Muslims.
They think of their fellow Muslims as above & beyond & apart from their fellow humans.
The Nazi threat was over with in 45.
Why couldn’t you just go about your business of owning the banks & running business’s wherever you were ?
Instead, you took up arms against the Arabs/Palestinians becuase of your tribalism.

We took up arms against them? Wow you hate history huh... It is UNDISPUTED FACT, that the Arab Armies struck the first blow in the 1948 war, what differs is the justification.

We could not go around running banks and business, (Which I take offense at your steriotypical comment) because they were gone, and we were homeless. We were a homeless people in Europe hence the massive refugee camps throughout the continent. We needed a home, we went to join our people that had stayed in Israel and had begun to Immigrate there. So our population grew, the Arabs grew fearful which escilated tensions and led to a full blown war.

The people had lived there in peace & you lot come along behaved like Germans in the Sudeten land.
Hitler felt he had the right to grab/colonise/overwhelm the Czechs in the Sudeten land, just because there were some of his German tribe already there. Similarly, you thought you could just march into Palestine & multiply the Israeli tribe numbers 10 or 20 fold with a massive influx of Jews.

We behaved in Peace, we came in and bought all the land we settled from either the Arabs or the British, we bought homes and land. We had the right to immigrate to the British Mandate of Palestinie which we did, and after the Holocaust we were a people adrift and we found our home with our people in Israel. Thus the flood of people arrived, and led to our own state in the end.

I'm sure the first thing any intelligent aliens looking down on the earth would spot is... Oh dear me, homosapiens still haven't managed to overcome their tribalistic herding instincts. What stupid little creatures.

The path of tribalism is divergent & divisive.

I wrote it myself. :mrgreen:

Robin- What happened... Oh man I died! Should have watched for that truck... Wait if I'm dead where am I? Everyone knows there is no god!

God-You got that one wrong.

Robin-Fake!Fake! You cant be real, humans are tribelistic animals who classify themselves based on whether they beleive in God!

God-Point?

Robin- That makes no sense!

God- Oh dear me, stupid hatefilled Atheists havent been able to overcome their own Atheistic impediment.

Robin- I cant be wrong! I cant be wrong! There is no possibility! I knew from first hand experiance there was no god and everyone else was wrong!

God-Firsthand experiance?

Robin-Well... Kind of a guess... But a really good one so I couldnt have been wrong...

God- But you were wrong.

Robin-...... Could I maybe get into Heaven?

(I dont think Atheists are hatefilled, only the ones that are Atheist and like to go "Dont you understand there is no god you stupid ****")


No need to bring uphateful references of tribalism because people beleive in God and their faith. It totally degenerates any form of debate.


And once again, post original material not copy and pasted sentances.

 

[robin]

I'll ask again for you to stop copy and pasting, make a real attempt at answering.

Our our our our our our our our our our.... ten times in your post.
That's the trouble the 'our' of tribalism.
Our this, our that.
Not a brotherhood of man, but a brotherhood of Jews.
Just like the brotherhood of Muslims.
They think of their fellow Muslims as above & beyond & apart from their fellow humans.
The Nazi threat was over with in 45.
Why couldn’t you just go about your business of owning the banks & running business’s wherever you were ?
Instead, you took up arms against the Arabs/Palestinians becuase of your tribalism.

We took up arms against them? Wow you hate history huh... It is UNDISPUTED FACT, that the Arab Armies struck the first blow in the 1948 war, what differs is the justification.

We could not go around running banks and business, (Which I take offense at your steriotypical comment) because they were gone, and we were homeless. We were a homeless people in Europe hence the massive refugee camps throughout the continent. We needed a home, we went to join our people that had stayed in Israel and had begun to Immigrate there. So our population grew, the Arabs grew fearful which escilated tensions and led to a full blown war.

The people had lived there in peace & you lot come along behaved like Germans in the Sudeten land.
Hitler felt he had the right to grab/colonise/overwhelm the Czechs in the Sudeten land, just because there were some of his German tribe already there. Similarly, you thought you could just march into Palestine & multiply the Israeli tribe numbers 10 or 20 fold with a massive influx of Jews.

We behaved in Peace, we came in and bought all the land we settled from either the Arabs or the British, we bought homes and land. We had the right to immigrate to the British Mandate of Palestinie which we did, and after the Holocaust we were a people adrift and we found our home with our people in Israel. Thus the flood of people arrived, and led to our own state in the end.

I'm sure the first thing any intelligent aliens looking down on the earth would spot is... Oh dear me, homosapiens still haven't managed to overcome their tribalistic herding instincts. What stupid little creatures.

The path of tribalism is divergent & divisive.

I wrote it myself. :mrgreen:

Robin- What happened... Oh man I died! Should have watched for that truck... Wait if I'm dead where am I? Everyone knows there is no god!

God-You got that one wrong.

Robin-Fake!Fake! You cant be real, humans are tribelistic animals who classify themselves based on whether they beleive in God!

God-Point?

Robin- That makes no sense!

God- Oh dear me, stupid hatefilled Atheists havent been able to overcome their own Atheistic impediment.

Robin- I cant be wrong! I cant be wrong! There is no possibility! I knew from first hand experiance there was no god and everyone else was wrong!

God-Firsthand experiance?

Robin-Well... Kind of a guess... But a really good one so I couldnt have been wrong...

God- But you were wrong.

Robin-...... Could I maybe get into Heaven?

(I dont think Atheists are hatefilled, only the ones that are Atheist and like to go "Dont you understand there is no god you stupid ****")


No need to bring uphateful references of tribalism because people beleive in God and their faith. It totally degenerates any form of debate.


And once again, post original material not copy and pasted sentances.

Me Atheist ?... more like agnostic surely ?http://www.debatepolitics.com/showthread.php?p=118326#post118326

I did also refer on the thread here to an aetheist tribe, the Nazis, so why do you say I linked tribalism only to people that believe in a God ?
Or that tribalisic people only 'classify themselves based on whether they believe in God.' Clearly that is not always the case as with you Jew v Muslim.

Really though Skippy I have to say.. you must be desperate, if you need to come up with hypothetical things I'm supposed to have said... so as to try & make me look hateful... when all along the hatefullness seems to be alive & well within you... not I.
But then such is the nature of tribalisic animals. A shared hatred for a common enemy is the main tribal bonding force, along with a shared belief in a God namely Hitler or God or whoever it might be.

Even if I had said in my previous post on this thread here, there 'there is no God stupid'... in a hate filled way.. which I most certainly did not say... how hatefull would that be compared to your bulldozing of Jenin ?
Followed by the Israeli army telling Sharon not to accept a UN enquiry into it.
Interesting... I wonder what the Israeli army didn't want the world to know to know about that ?
Incidently as you know the Israeli flattening of Jenin was triggered by the Park hotel, Netinya suicide bomb during Passover, which I find equally abhorant. The suicide bombers are insane.

As for the 48 war, you know you can't colonise somewhere.. then get an evoked offensive response, then claim the other side started it. The war/conflict was fermented. That fermentation process started with the colonisation & annexation process & that was started by you.
PS I admire people that run business's... provided they do it well of course & Jewish people always seem to do that.

 

[robin]

Incidently thousands of non Jews also lost their homes & jobs in WWII courtesy of Hitler.
Then there's the people of Jenin, who weren't the Passover suicide bomber, that lost their homes in 2002, courtesy of you.

 

[superskippy]

Me Atheist ?... more like agnostic surely ?http://www.debatepolitics.com/showth...326#post118326

I did also refer on the thread here to an aetheist tribe, the Nazis, so why do you say I linked tribalism only to people that believe in a God ?
Or that tribalisic people only 'classify themselves based on whether they believe in God.' Clearly that is not always the case as with you Jew v Muslim.

Really though Skippy I have to say.. you must be desperate, if you need to come up with hypothetical things I'm supposed to have said... so as to try & make me look hateful... when all along the hatefullness seems to be alive & well within you... not I.
But then such is the nature of tribalisic animals. A shared hatred for a common enemy is the main tribal bonding force, along with a shared belief in a God namely Hitler or God or whoever it might be.

On multiple occasions you have belittled and insulted people by using a tribalistic and Religous argument, you may not mean it to be hateful but you do it in a very angry fashion. I dont want this debate to degenerate into a focal point on this however, so I'll apologise and withdraw my comment, if you want however to argue it further feel free to PM me.


As for the 48 war, you know you can't colonise somewhere.. then get an evoked offensive response, then claim the other side started it. The war/conflict was fermented. That fermentation process started with the colonisation & annexation process & that was started by you.

Colonise , we bought houses... and land... Bought... from both British and Arabs... After our population grew we needed to buy more houses and Arab business men were happy to oblidge. After Partition was granted and fighting erupted the Arabs attacked.


Even if I had said in my previous post on this thread here, there 'there is no God stupid'... in a hate filled way.. which I most certainly did not say... how hatefull would that be compared to your bulldozing of Jenin ?
Followed by the Israeli army telling Sharon not to accept a UN enquiry into it.
Interesting... I wonder what the Israeli army didn't want the world to know to know about that ?
Incidently as you know the Israeli flattening of Jenin was triggered by the Park hotel, Netinya suicide bomb during Passover, which I find equally abhorant. The suicide bombers are insane.

Umm the one where we encountered heavy fighting and booby traps in a UN rung refugee camp where they should not have existed? Or this According to a CNN report [12] Palestinian Islamic Jihad militant Tabaat Mardawi, told CNN enthusiastically from his prison in Israel, that, after learning the IDF was going to use troops, and not planes, "It was like hunting ... like being given a prize. ....He added: "I've been waiting for a moment like that for years."

Mardawi told CNN that Palestinian fighters had spread "between 1000 and 2000 bombs and booby traps" throughout the camp. . Other, unrelated sources placed the explosives as up to "250 lbs ... compared with the 25 lbs. a typical suicide bomber uses". A total of 33 Israeli soldiers were killed in the street fighting. 13 died in a single day (April 9), many within a single trap set by Palestinian fighters

Now, tell me in a UN run refugee camp, why was there enough guns and explosives to kill 33 Israeli Soldiers in bitter street fighting, and would more than 100 others whilst battling over 250 Militants who were in the camp at the beggining before Palestinian renifocrment arrived.

Explosive devices were all over, a single explosive killed another 12 soldiers as they walked into the trap. Where there were scores of houses rigged with explosives?

Now tell me who in a UN run Refugee camp was there enough soldiers, explosves, guns, and ammunition to allow them to fight for days straight and kill 33 Israeli Soldiers in combat? There was a reason we let no media in, we did not want them to die.

As for the bulldozing 8-10% of the houses were bulldozed, the IDF had standing orders to bulldoze all the houses that were used by militants and/or were belived to have booby traps in them.

We acted in perfect behavior.

 

[robin]

So the colonisation didn't start till 2004 then ???!!!!!
Sorry but this is going to have to be a cut & paste.
You will probably say it's biased, anti Jew, anti semitic, Jew hating etc etc etc. But unless you counter this article with facts rather simply being dismissive, then in my book the article stands & I've no more to say on the Israeli Palestinian conflict. I recuse myself from participation, as Tashah says before she participates:lol: A conflict which incidently didn't happen for 2000 years until within a year or two of mass migration of Jews to Palestine.
Who or what process then is to blame... or is that some strange coincidence ?
http://www.palestine-pmc.com/details.asp?cat=3&id=423
"Reports Fact Sheet: Update on Israeli Colonization
PLO Negotiations Affairs Department
June to August 23, 2004
Despite international condemnation of Israel’s colonization of the Occupied West Bank, Palestinian Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip, and calls for Israel to cease all colony activity, (including “natural growth”) Israel continues to pursue aggressive colonization policies: Israel has announced new housing tenders and has begun construction on new colonies; Israel continues to offer financial incentives to settlers, to lure them to Occupied Palestinian Territory and Israel continues to construct its Wall, well within Occupied Palestinian Territory in order to facilitate colony expansion.
1. Colony Expansion
A. New Tenders and Housing Starts
In addition to the plans to issue 2,114 tenders for new colony units in and around Occupied Palestinian Jerusalem announced in March 2004 – 700 in Har Homa, 600 in Betar Illit, 200 in Ma’ale Adumim, 180 in Givat Ze’ev, 130 in Adam, 100 in Efrat, and 48 in Pisgat Ze’ev, and 156 in Kiryat Arba,[1] the Israeli Ministry of Housing also plans to expand the colony of Ariel with an additional 2,000 housing units, 300 of which have already been approved by Israel’s Defense Minister.[2]
On August 2, Israel approved the construction of 600 units in the Israeli colony of Ma’ale Adumim,[3] allowing for 2,000 new settlers to live there. This marks an increase of about 7% in the number of settlers in the colony.[4]
On August 17, Israel’s Housing Ministry published tenders for the construction of 1,001 new housing units in the Occupied West Bank: 42 in Karnei Shomron (“Giva Mirkazit”), 214 in eastern Ariel (“B Quarter”), 141 in Ma’ale Adumim (“Area 7”), and 604 in Betar Illit.[5]
On August 23, 2004, the Israel Lands Authority approved another 767 units for colonies in and around Occupied Palestinian Jerusalem: 200 in Har Gilo, 101 in Har Adar, 134 in Adam, 98 in Emmanuel, 150 in Har Homa, 48 in Pisgat Ze’ev, and 36 in Gilo.[6]
Table of Housing Tenders – March to August 23, 2004
B. Ma’ale Adumim Expansion Plans
In addition to the 941 tenders issued for the expansion of Ma’ale Adumim, Israel’s Housing Ministry has quietly resurrected an ambitious colony expansion plan aimed at connecting the West Bank colony with other colonies in and around Occupied Palestinian Jerusalem and with Israel. The plan, first developed and later shelved under the Rabin administration, calls for the construction of 4,000 housing units along the ridge northwest of Ma’ale Adumim. Land for the new colony, which covers 15,000 dunums (3,750 acres) of confiscated Palestinian land in the “E-1 Plan” area, was recently declared as “state land” and annexed to Ma’ale Adumim’s municipal boundaries.[7]

Although planning is scheduled to be completed within six months, after which it will be submitted to the Israeli Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz for approval, intensive road construction is already underway in the area. Meanwhile, Israel’s Finance Ministry has already allocated NIS 20 million ($ 4.4 million) for the project. According to Labor Knesset member Ephraim Sneh, “Building this new neighborhood means, in effect, slashing the West Bank into two parts forever. It is a step that opposes the Road Map accords, and ensures that no solution will be reached in the future. It puts in question the disengagement plan’s real objective.” PM Sharon, for whom the project remains a top priority, reportedly denied the existence of the plan with visiting U.S. officials in early August.[8]
C. New Colonies
On June 15, Israel announced plans to establish a new colony near the Palestinian village of Walaja, west of Beit Jala. The new colony, ‘Givat Yael’, will be situated on 4,110 dunums (1,028 acres) of Palestinian land currently slated for confiscation in order to accommodate 55,000 new settlers in 13,500 in housing units.[9] This comes months after two new colonies were created earlier in the year: Kidmat Zion (400 units) and Nof Zahav (550 units), both located in Occupied Palestinian Jerusalem.
Two new colonies are currently planned for the expansion of Alfei Manashe. The colony ‘Nof Sharon’, is slated to have 50 units and is situated on Palestinian lands near the Palestinian town of Habla just across the Green Line from the Israeli town of Nirit (south of Qalqilya).[10] Meanwhile, ‘Givat Tal’ is planned to have 400 units south of the colony of Alfei Manashe. In June, extensive construction was already underway for the southerly expansion of Alfei Manashe itself, which would nearly double its current size.[11]A group of Russian immigrants plan to establish a new colony in the Jordan Valley. The new colony, which will include an industrial center, a recycling plant, and other structures, has been endorsed by the World Zionist Organization’s Settlement Division, as well as by the settlers’ regional council, which is allocating some of its previously-appropriated Palestinian land for the project. Construction plans, now under review by Deputy PM Ehud Olmert, are expected to begin within months of government approval.[12]
D. Settler By-pass Roads, In June 2004, Israel began the construction of three new settler by-pass roads in the Occupied Gaza Strip – one north of Beit Hanun, another extending from Kissufim colony, and a third near the Za’tara junction.
Extensive settler by-pass road construction continues in many parts of Occupied Palestinian Jerusalem and surrounding areas, including construction aimed at linking Ma’ale Adumim with Road No. 1, and the Gilo colonies with Har Homa to the east, and between Har Homa and Tekoa to the southeast. By-pass road construction on the Mt. of Olives and near Az-Zaim are also underway, while that between Atarot and Ofer colonies was recently completed.
Israel is currently constructing a four-lane highway north of Ariel colony extending to the Jordan Valley. Once complete, the new settler highway, which is intended to link Ariel with the Shilo-Eli-Rehelim colony bloc and colony outposts in the Jordan Valley, will sever the northern part of the West Bank into two.
In late June, Israel resumed construction on a settler by-pass road aimed at linking the Itamar colony and nearby outposts with the Jordan Valley and the Allon Road.
E. Colony Outposts
According to Peace Now, as of July 20, 2004, since 1995 96 colony outposts have been established throughout the Occupied West Bank. Rather than comply with its Road Map obligations and dismantle colony outposts, the Israeli government continues to “formalize” them by providing them with infrastructural, educational, security and other support, thereby rendering them permanent.
According to Peace Now, of the 51 outposts established since March 2001 that are to be evacuated under the Road Map, which contain about 1,500 Israeli settlers, Israel has evacuated only three, which were mostly uninhabited.[13]
According to a recent report by Israel’s Military Government, the Israeli military approved the erection of 70 caravans to colonies in the West Bank in the first half of 2004 alone.[14]
2. Government Planning & Financial Incentives
In early May, Israel’s Attorney General granted the Housing and Construction Ministry permission to resume funding for colony construction projects.
In late July, Israel’s Minister of Agriculture Yisrael Katz instructed his ministry to purchase 72,000 olive trees at a cost of several million dollars. The olive trees are to be planted near Israeli colonies. “This is seizing lands and preventing them from being turned over to Palestinians. That is how we will strengthen our hold on Judea and Samaria,” said the Israeli Agriculture Minister, adding that “a financial incentive will be given by the Agriculture Ministry to anyone who plants and tends to olive groves.”[15]
[1] Foundation for Middle East Peace, Report on Israeli Settlement in the Occupied Territories, July-August 2004, Volume 14, No. 4, available at http://fmep.org/reports/2004/July-Aug/v14n4.html
[2] Americans for Peace Now, Middle East Peace Report, August 9, 2004, Volume 6, Issue 4 available at http://www.peacenow.org/nia/peace/v6i4.html
[3] Mark Heinrich, Israel to Expand West Bank Settlement, August 2, 2004, available at http://uk.news.yahoo.com/040802/325/ezf8c.html
[4] Americans for Peace Now, supra note 2.
[5] Steven Erlanger, Sharon Proposes New Housing in West Bank Settlements, NY Times, August 17, 2004 available at http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/17/international/middleeast/17CND-MIDE.html
[6] Ofer Petersburg, Lands are Being Unfrozen for Building 533 Apartment Units in Judea and Samaria, Yediot Ahronoth, August 23, 2004.
[7] Americans for Peace Now, supra note 2.
[8] Id. [9] East Jerusalem Building Draws Protesters, Associated Press, December 3, 2003. [10] Tsahar Rotem, Conundrum of Nof Hasharon’s Problematic Green Line Project, Ha’aretz, July 27, 2004.
[11] Interview with Dror Etkes, Peace Now, June 2004.
http://www.peacenow.org/nia/peace/v6i3.html
[13] Americans for Peace Now, Middle East Peace Report, July 2004.
[14] 70 caravans moved to W. Bank outposts, IDF top brass told, Ha’aretz, July 22, 2004. [15] Americans for Peace Now, supra note 11. "

 

[superskippy]

Robin I know you can do better than that!

Palestine Media Center, The PLO Negotiations Affairs Department? Come on now!

At least give me something that has a 3rd party bias. It's the equavelint of me citing the Jewish Virtual Library or the World Zionest Congress!

 

[robin]

Robin I know you can do better than that!
Palestine Media Center, The PLO Negotiations Affairs Department? Come on now!

So does that make it 100% untrue then ?
Goodnight.

 

[iamjack]

So does that make it 100% untrue then ?
Goodnight.

So we resort to marginal logic now? In that case then yes, Mien Kamp is correct because it's not 100% untrue.
We accept your captiulation.

 

[Tashah]

You a moderator !!!!!

And? If you believe that complacency and sufferance comes with Moderator status... you are sorely mistaken.

I had just posted a link to verify a report that three Israelis were murdered by terrorists in the West Bank... two women in their 20's and a teenage boy. The very next post was by you robin, launching into another of your typical anti-Israel diatribes. Not a word of acknowledgment of the atrocity on your part, or even a short courteous condolence. You well took advantage of this tragedy to rub your political salt into the wounds. Have you no decency?

We all have our views here at Debate Politics, but very few of us are willing to sacrifice dignity and integrity for political expedience. Trust me when I say that I will always respond with vigor to your contrivances and agenda.

 

[robin]

And? If you believe that complacency and sufferance comes with Moderator status... you are sorely mistaken.

I had just posted a link to verify a report that three Israelis were murdered by terrorists in the West Bank... two women in their 20's and a teenage boy. The very next post was by you robin, launching into another of your typical anti-Israel diatribes. Not a word of acknowledgment of the atrocity on your part, or even a short courteous condolence. You well took advantage of this tragedy to rub your political salt into the wounds. Have you no decency?

We all have our views here at Debate Politics, but very few of us are willing to sacrifice dignity and integrity for political expedience. Trust me when I say that I will always respond with vigor to your contrivances and agenda.

My "you a moderator" exclamation was nothing to do with your link ref the three Israelis shot. It was in connection with the tone of your 10-17-2005, 10:26 PM response to my 10-17-2005, 09:45 PM post.
Let me say I am saddened to see anyone shot, be they Israeli or Palestinian. You should be aware of my feelings on that by now. Such atrocities are the very antithesis of my symmetrical & anti tribalistic viewpoint.
I understand why you posted that link. I appologise if you think that my response was in some way condoning the shootings or was disrespectful of the dead & their poor grieving relatives.
I only posted when I did & on this thread because of the TV programme I'd seen the night before & there was no intended connection to your posting of that link.
You have my condolences.

 

[George_Washington]

My take on the Israel versus Palastine situation is this.

I realized that for many, many years the arabs controlled the Holy Land. This is a fact. But I also feel very, very saddened for the Jews and what they went through during the Third Reich. It was the UN that gave them control of Israel, correct? Well, I think that in light of what the Jews went through during the Holocaust, they deserve to have a country in order to protect themselves, their religion, and their customs. The arabs control virtually all of the middle east. Why can't the Jews have one tiny little country? Look how many Christian, Muslim, and Asian religion countries there are. The Jews only have one nation and even to this day, the arabs are trying to break it up. I just think that's sad.

I don't think the Jews really want to cause trouble in the middle east, not at all. I acknowledge the fact that maybe there have been atrocities committed on both sides of the fence but I think for the most part, the Jews just want to have a country of their own where they can feel safe to raise their families away from persecution.

I'm not Jewish but I believe my Christian faith calls on me to look out for the Jews. After all, Christ was a Jew.

 

[iamjack]

We may agree on the subject of Israeli sovereignty, George, but I think your logic is going to be criticized for being sophomoric. I think that's the same kind of subjective sentimentality that any pro-terrorist Palestinian teenager can counter with sob stories of injured pride and violated providence on the part of Israel that they gleaned from their parents or grandparents. There's a very objective point that Israel has been constantly antagonized for the duration of its existence, and hasn't shown half the aggression of it's assailants. And yet, extreme leftist doctrine states that there are no rights for the minority, in this case Israel being the minority in the context of the middle east. And apparently housing development is more egregious a trespass then murder.

 

[robin]

This was the last post permitted on the "Terrorist attack on Israel" thread. Apparently 'Big sis Tashah', or is it 'Nanny Tashah', decided on the somewhat shakey grounds of 'topic drift' !... that the topic should be closed & we should be permitted to see no more of the other side of the Arab Israeli conflict from anymore information that might have been posted by Bruce Lee styles on that thread !
I ask myself... Is this moderation, or is it censorship ?
The latter I think. In which case it is way beyond the remit of a moderator to have done this !
Anyway.. the letter below that Bruce Lee styles posted on the now 'locked thread', restores my faith in Albert Einstien.
Because I'd always had a niggling doubt that he, as a pacifist, could have been in support of the more unseamly aspects the formation of the state of Israel.
From this letter, it appears he was true to his nature as the wise pacifist & had realised it was time to apply the brakes in some areas.

http://globalwebpost.com/farooqm/stu...yt_letter.html

Albert Einstein

TO THE EDITORS OF THE NEW YORK TIMES:

Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the “Freedom Party” (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.

The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin’s political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.

Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin’s behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement.

The public avowals of Begin’s party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.

Attack on Arab Village

A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants — 240 men, women, and children — and kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin.

The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.

Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model.

During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute.

The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.

Discrepancies Seen

The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a “Leader State” is the goal.

In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Begin’s efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin.

The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism.

(signed)

Isidore Abramowitz, Hannah Arendt, Abraham Brick, Rabbi Jessurun Cardozo, Albert Einstein, Herman Eisen, M.D., Hayim Fineman, M. Gallen, M.D., H.H. Harris, Zelig S. Harris, Sidney Hook, Fred Karush, Bruria Kaufman, Irma L. Lindheim, Nachman Maisel, Symour Melman, Myer D. Mendelson, M.D., Harry M. Orlinsky, Samuel Pitlick, Fritz Rohrlich, Louis P. Rocker, Ruth Sager, Itzhak Sankowsky, I.J. Schoenberg, Samuel Shuman, M. Znger, Irma Wolpe, Stefan Wolpe

New York, Dec. 2, 1948

 

[gordon]

we should defend Isreal and the jews but not zionists

I dont have much respect for countries that continue the support for atomic bombs

to every country that has ATOMIC bombs I say they should be forced to give them all up
they are a threat to humanity